Inappropriate Avatar (Swastika)

[AAFitz]

i am refering to the post that wanted to point out why the nazis have lost the WWII , but i am to lazy to quote.

one main reason for loosing it ( and i am very glad for this otherwise i would probably be a nazi today) is that the british invented the RADAR system just in the right time, this has given them the ability to win the air fight and helped all the other nations to win the air fight . ( thx u u brilliant british scientists)

some people said the attack of russia was foolish of hitler, yeah of course he was a very very crazy man, and the main point is : his intent was not to only to conquer the world, his long time plan was to breed a new kind of humans in order to be able to do that you need control of the whole world.
he was thinking and talking of humans like a farmer would think and talk of his corn , he was very very very crazy weird man .

most people even nazis never read his book "mein kampf" because it is very boring to read, if they did they would probably have stoped him.

refering to the iraq posts:

well i am glad that saddam is taken out, but what i really got pissed of is that the whole attack was made under fake reasons, it was not about wmds or saddam , it was about getting control of their oil resources, in order to get this you need to calm down the situation their and set in a goverment that is pro-us which will accept the contracts that are already made !!!! , there was hardly anything about those contracts in the media ( i don't know why ) but i checked them out and it is quite a bargain. there is kind of civil war in iraq now and even those 20.000 extra units won't help but i hope i really hope , that the situation calms down there.

i have to agree with this quote 100%

and with maniac also...(maniacman...not the maniac refered to in the post)

[speckknoedelsup]

yeah manicman i also agree with your post,
it is simply not worth it i will always think my part when somebody uses such symbols.

also due to the fact that internet is kind of global ( or international or how you want it to be called ) ther will be always be people that might be offended by some avatars, nicknames or something else.

apart from this (this has nothing to do with this topic) there was often pointed out how important free speech is. It is also important to know that free speech was "invented" to make sure everyone is able to ventilate a grievance of government or society or individuals , but it is important that you don't abuse free speech for directly offending sombody (again i want to point out i am not refering to this topic).

for example if someone says: in my oppinion speckknoedelsup is damn weird crazy dumb fucked up bastard and his mother is a whore. he could say well i am just telling my opinion but it is still offending.
so this would be an example for abusing the right of free speech.

if that same person would say: well i think speckknoedelsup is a dumbass, because he did this and that and i think that is wrong because of this or that reasons, would be the right way of using free spech.

so beeing able to argue your own opinion due to facts of moral (refering to human rights) or historical facts or logical coherences is the very essence of free speech, in my opinion

i just want to point out that free speech is not an absolut right that can be used in any way you want it.

[manicman]

Well here's the thing. Free speech is the right not to avoid having your speech critisized (that's also free speech) but it is the right to not have your speech restricted by a rule or law. I think that is a very important distincton to make because a lot of people say stupid things and when called on them say that their free speech is being violated.

[Guiscard]

This reminds me that we choose not to serving alcohol at certain parties... Now let me just say that I have no problem with drinking myself, but when there are certain people present that we know struggle with alcohol, we feel it would be wrong of us to put it in thier face. This is quite simply good manners. I do not personnally have a problem drinking, but this freedom does not give me the right to force others to see things my way. And if you are truely honest with yourself, you will find that there is something that trips you up too... for some, as mentioned above, it's alcohol... for others it's drugs... maybe it's money... maybe it's porn... whatever it is, everybody has something that they struggle with, and nothing good comes from being exposed to it. If anyone reading this thinks this makes me a hyprocite, then I can tell you that you have alot to learn about people. And if anyone reading this cannot connect the dots as to how this applies to this thread, then, once again, I can tell you that you have alot to learn about people.

This is nothing but self righteous pity.

The one thing a a person trying to give up ciggerettes HATES!

"Do you mind if i smoke?"

Robinette I think your story illuminates perfectly the resons behind me starting this thread. I really had no idea it would get so in depth. I tried PMing the guy first to ask in private as I didn't want any undue criticism or aggression. I genuinely believe he is in no way racist or supports the ideals of Nazism. I assumed after a page or so Lack or another mod would simply say 'it stays' or 'it goes' and that would be it.

As for Gerry22 thats comletely wrong. As a previously heavy smoker who has recently quit (7 months and counting) I very much mind if people ask whether I mind them smoking. I don't hate it at all. I'd expect it, at least if they knew me at all. Its just polite and it does make a difference to me quitting personally. If you wanna call that self righteous pity then go ahead!

AAFitz, I think Foolish yeti has answered your arguments in exactly the same way as I would have. We're not really doing a great deal to harm al queda because they are an international group of organisations not rooted in any country. They're 'people' are all those who follow extreme forms of Islam. Osama was from Saudi... maybe we should invade there? Although admittadly the invasion of Afghanistan has taken out of power a regime (the Taliban) who supported and housed terrorists, the effects of the invasion, and to a greater extent that of Iraq, has (in my opinion) been more detremental to the safety of the 'west' as a whole. On the one hand we've stopped one case of a regime harbouring terrorists, but on the other we've given them potentially limitless ammunition in the form of a disasterous occupation and what they see as a blatent attack on the Muslim world.

[gerry22]

This reminds me that we choose not to serving alcohol at certain parties... Now let me just say that I have no problem with drinking myself, but when there are certain people present that we know struggle with alcohol, we feel it would be wrong of us to put it in thier face. This is quite simply good manners. I do not personnally have a problem drinking, but this freedom does not give me the right to force others to see things my way. And if you are truely honest with yourself, you will find that there is something that trips you up too... for some, as mentioned above, it's alcohol... for others it's drugs... maybe it's money... maybe it's porn... whatever it is, everybody has something that they struggle with, and nothing good comes from being exposed to it. If anyone reading this thinks this makes me a hyprocite, then I can tell you that you have alot to learn about people. And if anyone reading this cannot connect the dots as to how this applies to this thread, then, once again, I can tell you that you have alot to learn about people.

This is nothing but self righteous pity.

The one thing a a person trying to give up ciggerettes HATES!

"Do you mind if i smoke?"

Robinette I think your story illuminates perfectly the resons behind me starting this thread. I really had no idea it would get so in depth. I tried PMing the guy first to ask in private as I didn't want any undue criticism or aggression. I genuinely believe he is in no way racist or supports the ideals of Nazism. I assumed after a page or so Lack or another mod would simply say 'it stays' or 'it goes' and that would be it.

As for Gerry22 thats comletely wrong. As a previously heavy smoker who has recently quit (7 months and counting) I very much mind if people ask whether I mind them smoking. I don't hate it at all. I'd expect it, at least if they knew me at all. Its just polite and it does make a difference to me quitting personally. If you wanna call that self righteous pity then go ahead!

AAFitz, I think Foolish yeti has answered your arguments in exactly the same way as I would have. We're not really doing a great deal to harm al queda because they are an international group of organisations not rooted in any country. They're 'people' are all those who follow extreme forms of Islam. Osama was from Saudi... maybe we should invade there? Although admittadly the invasion of Afghanistan has taken out of power a regime (the Taliban) who supported and housed terrorists, the effects of the invasion, and to a greater extent that of Iraq, has (in my opinion) been more detremental to the safety of the 'west' as a whole. On the one hand we've stopped one case of a regime harbouring terrorists, but on the other we've given them potentially limitless ammunition in the form of a disasterous occupation and what they see as a blatent attack on the Muslim world.

Good for you.

[LetGodSortThem]

I think we are "beating a dead donkey here Lock it up" mods...even I've had enough, he changed Avatar...lets move on

[AAFitz]

This reminds me that we choose not to serving alcohol at certain parties... Now let me just say that I have no problem with drinking myself, but when there are certain people present that we know struggle with alcohol, we feel it would be wrong of us to put it in thier face. This is quite simply good manners. I do not personnally have a problem drinking, but this freedom does not give me the right to force others to see things my way. And if you are truely honest with yourself, you will find that there is something that trips you up too... for some, as mentioned above, it's alcohol... for others it's drugs... maybe it's money... maybe it's porn... whatever it is, everybody has something that they struggle with, and nothing good comes from being exposed to it. If anyone reading this thinks this makes me a hyprocite, then I can tell you that you have alot to learn about people. And if anyone reading this cannot connect the dots as to how this applies to this thread, then, once again, I can tell you that you have alot to learn about people.

This is nothing but self righteous pity.

The one thing a a person trying to give up ciggerettes HATES!

"Do you mind if i smoke?"

Robinette I think your story illuminates perfectly the resons behind me starting this thread. I really had no idea it would get so in depth. I tried PMing the guy first to ask in private as I didn't want any undue criticism or aggression. I genuinely believe he is in no way racist or supports the ideals of Nazism. I assumed after a page or so Lack or another mod would simply say 'it stays' or 'it goes' and that would be it.

As for Gerry22 thats comletely wrong. As a previously heavy smoker who has recently quit (7 months and counting) I very much mind if people ask whether I mind them smoking. I don't hate it at all. I'd expect it, at least if they knew me at all. Its just polite and it does make a difference to me quitting personally. If you wanna call that self righteous pity then go ahead!

AAFitz, I think Foolish yeti has answered your arguments in exactly the same way as I would have. We're not really doing a great deal to harm al queda because they are an international group of organisations not rooted in any country. They're 'people' are all those who follow extreme forms of Islam. Osama was from Saudi... maybe we should invade there? Although admittadly the invasion of Afghanistan has taken out of power a regime (the Taliban) who supported and housed terrorists, the effects of the invasion, and to a greater extent that of Iraq, has (in my opinion) been more detremental to the safety of the 'west' as a whole. On the one hand we've stopped one case of a regime harbouring terrorists, but on the other we've given them potentially limitless ammunition in the form of a disasterous occupation and what they see as a blatent attack on the Muslim world.

i pmed foolish yeti, and we are fine....it has been educational...

but again...binladen is not in a better position...after his attacks

and the US is not in a better position after their attacks on iraq

this got confusing, but all i was trying to say is that a brilliant attack with negative consequences is not brilliant at all...with a few thousand more words, i think we would all find we agree more than it seems we do

[Evil Semp]

I think we are "beating a dead donkey here Lock it up" mods...even I've had enough, he changed Avatar...lets move on

God has spoken. He has had enough so the rest of us can just shut up and quit reading.

[hulmey]

lol it has been interesting seeing how people think so differently from all parts of the world.

On a final note would like to say that we are all being played....And theres not one country or one person in power in the world who doesnt look after NUMBER 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NanoSpores]

I must say, as this is a game, shouldn't someone have the fun of representing "Evil"? or would you rather play on Middle Earth against a bunch of Frodos. I'd kind of like to play against Hitler in Risk.

[LetGodSortThem]

I must say, as this is a game, shouldn't someone have the fun of representing "Evil"? or would you rather play on Middle Earth against a bunch of Frodos. I'd kind of like to play against Hitler in Risk.

Hitler...Good luck only one stupid diseased nutbag lunatic per century....Oh by the way...that's the second stupidest thing I've heard(still waiting for the first)...

[foolish_yeti]

but again...binladen is not in a better position...after his attacks

and the US is not in a better position after their attacks on iraq

wouldn't the second statement contradict the first one?

aaanyhoo- I guess we'll agree to disagree...

[LetGodSortThem]

but again...binladen is not in a better position...after his attacks

and the US is not in a better position after their attacks on iraq

wouldn't the second statement contradict the second one?

aaanyhoo- I guess we'll agree to disagree...

Garbage bin Laden based in AFG
(note CANADIAN Troops killed there in the fight against TERRORISM -Pointed out for my U.S. brothers who DIS CANADA)
SADDAM In Iraq...You figure it out...

"wouldn't the second statement contradict the second one?"

The only point you make is no point...And I disagree with you...3000 U.S. troops dead...I think Fitz is right on this one...

Be nice and more effective if there were 100,000 more troops in AFG...Be at least 3000 MORE!!!!!!!!!

[foolish_yeti]

well you caught me on my typo- it's fixed now...

[AAFitz]

but again...binladen is not in a better position...after his attacks

and the US is not in a better position after their attacks on iraq

wouldn't the second statement contradict the second one?

aaanyhoo- I guess we'll agree to disagree...

not at all...two seperate examples...bin laden attacked the towers and the US did some serious damage to his network however much you feel he didnt...if you feel bin laden did the right thing, thats fine...im not arguing that...you can call it a successful mission, and a brilliant idea if you want...just type it out so i can see it...type: bin laden set up a brilliant attack on the United States that had great consequences for his organization....if that what you are saying...but leave iraq out of it, if you are refering to my post, because im not including it in this example im treating it seperately

as my second example of a battle that has had negative consequences for the attackers:

...the US has attacked iraq and successfully taken saddam out, but is having an incredibly hard time stabilizing the region...anti US sentiment is high, we are losing soldiers every day, the President's popularity is as low as any in history, and the interest on the debt load is staggering....

2 seperate attacks...2 seperate examples...i cannot be more clear...

you are connecting them every time, but i am using them as two seperate attacks that had negative consequences...obviously they are connected, but i am using them as two seperate examples of battles..that although they were technically successful, the consequences to the attackers has been severe....only to make the point that a supposedly brilliant attack that ends in a negative situation for the country or group is not briliant at all

clearly i should have used examples that weren't so closely related, because i just cant get you to consider them as too seperate examples no matter how many times ive pointed out thats what I am doing

I really only wanted to point out that it was not brilliant for Bin Laden to attack the twin towers

and that although Saddam is gone, the U S has hardly handled the situation brilliantly, because it is still a disaster

Pearl Harbor was also brought up as an ingenious attack....sure the attack went well, but all things considered, im guessing they may have made an error in judgement...

and i only used these examples in the first place to back up my premise that a brilliant general, or conquerer, that brings destruction to his country is not at all brilliant...i dont care how succesful an individual battle, or campain is...if the result is the countries utter destruction...it clearly isnt brilliant at all

[Robinette]

This is a copy of a post from "The recent in depth topics on this site....." This thread, along with "Sexism" were the main reason for it. I thought it might be beneficial to post it here. Enjoy.

I vow forevermore to keep my conversations trite and shallow.

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furshur, cause I can totally do that, i mean, come on, like, I'm like really good at that. omigod, this is sooo great, furshurOmigod, i like totally understand that, furshur, furshur, so like you mean, like, omigod, like only talk about things like shopping and stuff like that, furshur, cause I can totally do that, i mean, come on, like, I'm like really good at that. omigod, this is sooo great, furshurOmigod, i like totally understand that, furshur, furshur, so like you mean, like, omigod, like only talk about things like shopping and stuff like that, furshur, cause I can totally do that, i mean, come on, like, I'm like really good at that. omigod, this is sooo great, furshurOmigod, i like totally understand that, furshur, furshur, so like you mean, like, omigod, like only talk about things like shopping and stuff like that, furshur, cause I can totally do that, i mean, come on, like, I'm like really good at that. omigod, this is sooo great, furshurOmigod, i like totally understand 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[AAFitz]

tilt...im sure i sound annoyed, but it isnt really with the points of view...i find them very interesting, and probably agree with you more than you would think....

it is just frustrating to have the quotes misconstrued and used to counter arguements that im really not trying to make...

[LetGodSortThem]

Famous last words...Does this smell o.k. to you?

[hulmey]

I fail to see how you think the Worlds attck on Iraq was brilliant AAFitz.

Because it was ill-planned and ill-timed against a already crippled country.

so thats probably why people are confusing the issue coz the attack was far from brilliant.

And as for bin laden's organisation destroyed you are sadly mistakened.
Hurt maybe but sadly still very much kicking and planning the next attack against america.

My country England has already tasted a attacked from a DESTROYED organisation!!!!!

[AAFitz]

The technology and tactics used were brilliant. The fact that it was overkill is irrelevant. The technology and tactics were used to save as many attackers lives as possible. But i am hardly singing praise for the attacks. The only point im trying to make is that it was not brilliant in the end, because the consequences have been severe, and potentially worse. If they cannot stabilize the region and solve the problem, then they should never have made the attacks in the first place. Im glad Saddam is no longer in control, but if Iraq is more of a threat after the attacks...then they were a complete mistake in the first place.

And Bin Ladens organization is not destroyed. But they were severely damaged, and there is no way to destroy such an organization completely, without getting rid of the underlying causes that allow such an organization.
They lost the support of many countries and world leaders that day, and the respect of any people who are not completely out of their minds and devoid of humanity. So again, i ask...are you saying bin laden is better off now and the attacks were brilliant?

There will be more terrorists attacks. It is possible that they are very damaging to the targeted countries. But no good will ever come from them. If Bin Laden wanted to help his muslim people and serve his allah, he would take his resources, and political power, and create a free and open community for his people, where they could enjoy food, shelter and prosperous lives. The world buys a lot of oil from the mideast, but the people who receive it, keep it for themselves. Saddam had plenty of resources to turn Iraq into a thriving state. Instead he decided to build a massive military and attack Kuwait. And settup a regime with based on complete control and abuse of its citizens.

If the governor of New Hampshire settup a regime like that, we'd attack and kill him too.

The attacks have made the entire world a worse place. They have hurt the entire planet on a global scale. They did no more to further his cause than Tim Mcvey did with some fertilizer and deisel to change the government policies that he didnt agree with. These people are absolute madmen, who are so filled with hate that all they can bring themselves to do is cause destruction.

There will be more terrorists attacks. It is possible that they are very damaging to the targeted countries. But no good will ever come from them. If Bin Laden wanted to help his muslim people and serve his allah, he would take his resources, and political power, and create a free and open community for his people, where they could enjoy food, shelter and prosperous lives.

The world buys a lot of oil from the mideast, but the people who receive it, keep it for themselves. Saddam had plenty of resources to turn Iraq into a thriving state. Instead he decided to build a massive military and attack Kuwait. And settup a regime with based on complete control and abuse of its citizens and treat the women like second class citizens to say the least.

If the governor of New Hampshire settup a regime like that, we'd attack and arrest him too.

[Robinette]

If the governor of New Hampshire settup a regime like that, we'd attack and arrest him too.

Why did you choose to pick on the supreme executive magistrate of the state of New Hampshire? What is he up to? Hmmmm... did you know that until NH ammended it's constitution, they referred to the position as "President of the State of New Hampshire"... maybe, just maybe, they want that title back..... mnnnnnn...

hee hee... all that intelligent talk... and i ask why new hampshire...
Kinda frustrating, huh?

[AAFitz]

because its motto is live free or die

but to be honest it was just the first example i thought of...


if Vermont went to war with New Hampshire, it would be similar in land size area to a lot of the Mideast that are at war...and for me, they are geographically directly to my North, so when i try to picture the mid east, i picture a few more million people living in the Northeast, all wanting each others land....its not an attactive prospect, and I genuinely feel very bad for the people of those countries being born into such a turbulent area, especially those that only get to see war and suffering...It really is heartbreaking

[foolish_yeti]

This is a copy of a post from "The recent in depth topics on this site....." This thread, along with "Sexism" were the main reason for it. I thought it might be beneficial to post it here. Enjoy.

I vow forevermore to keep my conversations trite and shallow.

Omigod, i like totally understand that, furshur, furshur, so like you mean, like, omigod, like only talk about things like shopping and stuff like that, furshur, cause I can totally do that, i mean, come on, like, I'm like really good at that. omigod, this is sooo great, furshur, I'll go first, like, lets talk about, omigod, like my favorite store in the valley, furshur you should know this, cause, like, omigod it's so easy.

Sorry Robinette, the sarcasm button on my keyboard is broken. *smacks head*

you are connecting them every time, but i am using them as two seperate attacks that had negative consequences...obviously they are connected, but i am using them as two seperate examples

I'm aware you're trying to use them as two separate examples, but I'm not sure how you can disconnect things merely for argument's sake. You're then getting into hypothetical situations: "okay we all know a and b are linked....but let's say for a minute that they aren't...etc." I am linking them because, as you have said, they are linked. But for now I'll ignore the States invasion of Iraq and Al-Qaeda in Iraq.

Okay, so first off I just want to say that there is no concrete proof linking Al-Qaeda to 9/11. There is a possibility it was them, and for the sake of this discussion we'll assume it was them.

And we'll bring the discussion back to the main point you're trying to argue- as you've said other things I've refuted that were offshoots from the initial point you were trying to make- which is easy since there is a lot to talk about considering these issues.

So we'll take a look at 9/11 (again, under the assumption that Al-Qaeda was responsible) and its effects on the Al-Qaeda network- you're main point being that it was a bad move on the part of Bin Laden.

The first loss is that of a sympathetic government, the Taliban. The States has invaded Afghanistan and taken the Taliban out of power (after they put them in power- but that's a whole different story, heh heh). The initial point of the invasion was to capture Bin Laden, with the ousting of the Taliban added after three weeks of bombing, since you can hardly justify the decimation of a region and its people to dismantle one organization. The Taliban by far did not have a stranglehold on the region, and from what major players in Afg. say they were on they're way out anyways. Thus the loss of a sympathetic government, while possibly accelerated by the attacks, was an eventuality to deal with anyways.

The second loss is operationally- in that Al-Qaeda lost many training facilities and commanders. There is no arguing that bombing the hell out of them didn't have a negative impact. This puts a dent in their military operations in the region- I do not know how this effected the organization as a whole in terms of business or media organization, so I can't really comment on losses or gains there. The effects of these loses might be less than in a traditional military, as Al-Qaeda is less hierarchical. Nobody in the organization was some sort of super genius where a replacement cannot be found.

Now let's take a look at the positives for Al-Qaeda stemming from the attacks.

The main effect of the attacks was that it increased anti-American sentiments both in the region and abroad.

The first effect of this would be that the ranks of Al-Qaeda and other organizations working for the same goal would increase. More people in the region and abroad take up arms against the West. This would be counterbalanced by the loss of members in fighting, but I would say that this is a net gain. You're only killing the ones you can find in one country- while others are still in hiding in that country, others are joining in hiding in that country as well as the increase in membership in all other countries.

The second effect of this is to increase global pressure on the states- the majority of the west is anti-America...even in Britain, governmentally one of bush's greatest allies, popular opinion is by far against bush. In fact it seems that the more a country supports bush, the more opposed it's populace is. This has an effect on both what the States can do in Afghanistan, but other countries as well. I am sure more people are aware of the States involvement in Latin America, the Israel-Palestine conflict and many other historical and current examples of America's terrorism. While the majority in these countries do not take up arms against the states, political and popular pressure is mounting.

Looking at these in terms of Al-Qaeda's goals is where we will see the net outcome. I would say that Al-Qaeda's main concern is eliminating western influence in Muslim countries- which at the same time would strengthen Islam states, ultimately into a caliphate.

So did the attack serve to decrease western influence in Islamic countries? In the short term it would appear that it increased western interference. I would say that it did not increase western influence, only made it more overt. In the long term I think it will decrease western influence everywhere. The empire is falling as people wise up to its actions. It took a couple of years of atrocities in Vietnam before protests occurred. In today's world people were protesting even before official invasions began. The overall situation for the States seems to be getting worse and worse. It is hard to find informed people anywhere who are not against what the west is doing all over the world. I'm not saying the attacks were brilliant, I'm not saying it didn't cost Al-Qaeda anything, but overall I think if Al-Qaeda was responsible for the attacks, it has been a positive for their cause.

[cdman]

i liked it more when the talk was about communism and nazism. this is just to much.

let me remember all the subtopics of this topic: nazism , communism , 9/11 , al-queda , drinking , smoking , iraq , saddam , afghanistan and as i recall even something about sexism.

so may i be the one to another subtopic to the "INNAPROPIATE AVATAR" : how about SEX. that wasn't debated!

this topic has gone way to long!

pls lack CLOSE IT! i changed my avatar. that is not a problem anymore.
pls!

[AAFitz]

ah, that is much better

your quote:
"if Al-Qaeda was responsible for the attacks, it has been a positive for their cause."

what was their cause? what has it accomplished? that countries dont agree with the US?....There have always been anti-US sentiments...there always will be. what else did he get? more people that want to bomb us.
And im not talking about the satisfaction of killing US citizens...in talking long term...how has this helped his cause? Creating war and more attacks and more killing?

If his goal isnt to help his people live better lives, than who cares.

the attacks also increased anti-terrorist sentiments in the entire world...including among muslims themselves...

and if the US had not attacked Iraq, the attack on Afganistan would not have been percieved to be as wrong as much as to root out the terrorists that caused it, and everyone saw the afganistan people applauding when the taliban was ousted...they paid a terrible price for having lived it the country that harbored bin laden through no fault of their own. I am not in any way saying it was handled perfectly, or even that it was the only way...or that one innocent civilian should have been killed...but it was essentially inevitable once the attacks on 9/11 took place

it was the attack on Iraq, and the continuing battle that has created anti-us sentiment...but we cant give bin Laden total credit for that, because it is possible, it would have happened anyways...he just gave him an excuse at the time...and we may never know how much they thought there were WMD's there...it is possible they made it up completely, but if they truly thought they were there, at the time you could see how they might feel they had to attack....

but as you say, that really is a different arguement, and im not suggesting i have any insight into it at all

it has been interesting...