Fog etiquette [Answered]

[Nanogram]

Is it okay to tell others where a players units are located?

I've had this happen twice in the past few days.

Is it considered bad enough for CC to take action against players who do this?

[Rabid bunnies]

I highly doubt it Nanogram.

Fog is great due to your ability to hide armies, build stockpiles, snatch quick bonuses hoping to get a return before people can mobilize a strike against you, but most of all... Fog allows for you to manipulate diplomacy.

Because everyone can only see the same "?" althroughout the map... when someone else identifies a large army or gives information, it comes down to others choosing to accept it or not. You can give false information in hopes of luring another player to commit an action, you can try to draw interest away from yourself by giving false information.

Since:

a) Someone has to believe what is said about your army.
b) Someone has to act on it to affect you.
c) You may try to counter-act the claim.
d) You can make your own claim...

I don't see CC ever taking action against someone for initiating this diplomacy as a punishable offense.

Note: I predict you will be told here to just "foe and move on" but I say don't even foe for this. It is part of the diplomacy and diplomacy is as much a part of this game as the dice. Some players foe others for making deals ingame... if they hadn't made a deal ingame they would have accused them of secret diplomacy anyway... some players just don't like the fact that diplomacy is a part of the game and so they take it out on those who diligently use diplomacy to win. This is the same way.

Don't take offense that someone is making comments about your army. Don't be afraid to make comments yourself about the armies of others. Understand that aside from your word... or Green's word... or blue's word... all any of you can see for a portion of the board is "?" and alot of it is not the statement itself but how people will react to it... do they believe it? Do they not? Do they risk going out of their way to attack based on what's said? Do they ignore what's said, writing it off as a bluff only to suffer for it in the end? This is all part of the game. Don't be bitter about it, don't foe anyone for it... it's all part of diplomacy.

Jasmine

[Woodruff]

Is it okay to tell others where a players units are located?
I've had this happen twice in the past few days.
Is it considered bad enough for CC to take action against players who do this?

Personally, I think it's bad form, but no...CC won't do anything.

But you can turn it around...see, I like to use it as MISinformation...give bogus info out
in fog games.

[ratdig04]

Is it okay to tell others where a players units are located?
I've had this happen twice in the past few days.
Is it considered bad enough for CC to take action against players who do this?

Personally, I think it's bad form, but no...CC won't do anything.

But you can turn it around...see, I like to use it as MISinformation...give bogus info out
in fog games.

Your basically doing the same thing. Your giving information. Whether its true or not is what the person has to choose to believe. Thats exactly what rabid said before. You say its bad form, but you do the same thing.

[lancehoch]

Moved to Q&A from C&A. It looks like you got your answer though, there is nothing against the rules, but you can give ratings that you feel are appropriate.

[Woodruff]

Is it okay to tell others where a players units are located?
I've had this happen twice in the past few days.
Is it considered bad enough for CC to take action against players who do this?

Personally, I think it's bad form, but no...CC won't do anything.

But you can turn it around...see, I like to use it as MISinformation...give bogus info out
in fog games.

Your basically doing the same thing. Your giving information. Whether its true or not is what the person has to choose to believe. Thats exactly what rabid said before. You say its bad form, but you do the same thing.

No, it's not the same thing. Consider this...in poker, it is actually ILLEGAL to tell someone what is in your hand (accurate information). However, it is perfectly acceptable and even expected that you will LIE about what is in your hand (inaccurate information). I am doing the second...a big difference.

[ratdig04]

Is it okay to tell others where a players units are located?
I've had this happen twice in the past few days.
Is it considered bad enough for CC to take action against players who do this?

Personally, I think it's bad form, but no...CC won't do anything.

But you can turn it around...see, I like to use it as MISinformation...give bogus info out
in fog games.

Your basically doing the same thing. Your giving information. Whether its true or not is what the person has to choose to believe. Thats exactly what rabid said before. You say its bad form, but you do the same thing.

No, it's not the same thing. Consider this...in poker, it is actually ILLEGAL to tell someone what is in your hand (accurate information). However, it is perfectly acceptable and even expected that you will LIE about what is in your hand (inaccurate information). I am doing the second...a big difference.

In poker...not in risk with fog. You are doing the same thing. You are giving information. It ISNT illegal so comparing the two is moot.


And btw, you cant lie about what you have in your hand either. If you mention any 2 cards that you have you will be warned, do it again and you will be penalized.

[Night Strike]

Fog of War Games:

• Using the game chat to announce where a player's territories and troops may (or may not ) be is NOT against the rules. It may come across as unfair or not in the spirit of the game, but feel free to find strategic applications of this non-rule.

Feel free to leave the appropriate ratings/tags after the game ends if you disapprove of this tactic.

[Woodruff]

And btw, you cant lie about what you have in your hand either. If you mention any 2 cards that you have you will be warned, do it again and you will be penalized.

In poker? No, that's absolutely not true. I play poker weekly in a casino in both high-level games and in tournaments, and you are absolutely wrong in what you say.

[sully800]

And btw, you cant lie about what you have in your hand either. If you mention any 2 cards that you have you will be warned, do it again and you will be penalized.

In poker? No, that's absolutely not true. I play poker weekly in a casino in both high-level games and in tournaments, and you are absolutely wrong in what you say.

What you're saying doesn't make sense though. Because if you say "I have an ace" that means that you don't have an ace since you wouldn't be allowed to say that. If casinos allow you do that they are hypocrites because you can just as easily tell someone what you have by telling them exactly what you don't have.

You are allowed to say whatever you want about other players in fog of war games, truthful or otherwise. Some players may not like you being chatty through the fog and may give you corresponding bad feedback. Others will use the same tactic to try and give themselves an advantage in the game.

[Woodruff]

And btw, you cant lie about what you have in your hand either. If you mention any 2 cards that you have you will be warned, do it again and you will be penalized.

In poker? No, that's absolutely not true. I play poker weekly in a casino in both high-level games and in tournaments, and you are absolutely wrong in what you say.

What you're saying doesn't make sense though. Because if you say "I have an ace" that means that you don't have an ace since you wouldn't be allowed to say that. If casinos allow you do that they are hypocrites because you can just as easily tell someone what you have by telling them exactly what you don't have.

If you go so far as to explicitly tell someone what you have by telling them what you don't have, you'd essentially be going through the entire deck of cards and you would be penalized appropriately. You may as well be just telling them straight-up, as far as the reality of it is concerned. It's not hypocritical at all...with 54 possibilities of what you have, just saying "I have an ace" means there are 50 other possibilities (not to mention the different combinations) that you can have.

[trinicardinal]

Fog of War Games:

• Using the game chat to announce where a player's territories and troops may (or may not ) be is NOT against the rules. It may come across as unfair or not in the spirit of the game, but feel free to find strategic applications of this non-rule.

Feel free to leave the appropriate ratings/tags after the game ends if you disapprove of this tactic.

This guy in an assassin game had 1 territory left with 1 man on it. He was not my target but I had 34 on one side and 27 on another side with 31 close to his final side. so I took out the final attacking country and surrounded him with strong forces that the others couldn't break through. they couldn't even see him either.

Idiot reinforces and then attacks me and then announces to everyone where he is and where my armies are... do you think he deliberately wanted to lose?

[Snorri1234]

And btw, you cant lie about what you have in your hand either. If you mention any 2 cards that you have you will be warned, do it again and you will be penalized.

In poker? No, that's absolutely not true. I play poker weekly in a casino in both high-level games and in tournaments, and you are absolutely wrong in what you say.

What you're saying doesn't make sense though. Because if you say "I have an ace" that means that you don't have an ace since you wouldn't be allowed to say that. If casinos allow you do that they are hypocrites because you can just as easily tell someone what you have by telling them exactly what you don't have.

If you go so far as to explicitly tell someone what you have by telling them what you don't have, you'd essentially be going through the entire deck of cards and you would be penalized appropriately. You may as well be just telling them straight-up, as far as the reality of it is concerned. It's not hypocritical at all...with 54 possibilities of what you have, just saying "I have an ace" means there are 50 other possibilities (not to mention the different combinations) that you can have.

sully's point is that when you can lie about your cards but can't tell the truth there is no point in acting like you have certain cards. Any words out of your mouth must be lies so what's the point?

[azezzo]

Fog of War Games:

• Using the game chat to announce where a player's territories and troops may (or may not ) be is NOT against the rules. It may come across as unfair or not in the spirit of the game, but feel free to find strategic applications of this non-rule.

Feel free to leave the appropriate ratings/tags after the game ends if you disapprove of this tactic.

nightstrike why would you say such a stupid thing, "Feel free to leave the appropriate ratings/tags after the game ends if you disapprove of this tactic"?

basically you are advocating leaving bad ratings for someone who did nothing wrong.

[Woodruff]

And btw, you cant lie about what you have in your hand either. If you mention any 2 cards that you have you will be warned, do it again and you will be penalized.

In poker? No, that's absolutely not true. I play poker weekly in a casino in both high-level games and in tournaments, and you are absolutely wrong in what you say.

What you're saying doesn't make sense though. Because if you say "I have an ace" that means that you don't have an ace since you wouldn't be allowed to say that. If casinos allow you do that they are hypocrites because you can just as easily tell someone what you have by telling them exactly what you don't have.

If you go so far as to explicitly tell someone what you have by telling them what you don't have, you'd essentially be going through the entire deck of cards and you would be penalized appropriately. You may as well be just telling them straight-up, as far as the reality of it is concerned. It's not hypocritical at all...with 54 possibilities of what you have, just saying "I have an ace" means there are 50 other possibilities (not to mention the different combinations) that you can have.

sully's point is that when you can lie about your cards but can't tell the truth there is no point in acting like you have certain cards. Any words out of your mouth must be lies so what's the point?

Because there is always information and misinformation available...poker is by definition "a game of limited information". But unless you're going to sit there for hours on end motionless, you HAVE to give something away...so the key is to give so much "away" (accurate or not) that you make it difficult to process where the truth lies. They may know I don't have those two cards, but it also distracts them from what they also might otherwise pick up on.

[Night Strike]

Fog of War Games:

• Using the game chat to announce where a player's territories and troops may (or may not ) be is NOT against the rules. It may come across as unfair or not in the spirit of the game, but feel free to find strategic applications of this non-rule.

Feel free to leave the appropriate ratings/tags after the game ends if you disapprove of this tactic.

nightstrike why would you say such a stupid thing, "Feel free to leave the appropriate ratings/tags after the game ends if you disapprove of this tactic"?

basically you are advocating leaving bad ratings for someone who did nothing wrong.

B/c it's the same thing as exploiting loopholes in freestyle or having in-chat alliances: they're all legal, but some players disapprove of such actions. Ratings are there to give a voice to your disapproval. It's not an abuse of the ratings system.

[flexmaster33]

This guy in an assassin game had 1 territory left with 1 man on it. He was not my target but I had 34 on one side and 27 on another side with 31 close to his final side. so I took out the final attacking country and surrounded him with strong forces that the others couldn't break through. they couldn't even see him either.

Idiot reinforces and then attacks me and then announces to everyone where he is and where my armies are... do you think he deliberately wanted to lose?

I would guess the surrounded player didn't really understand assassin games or more likely he was frustrated with no real chance to win himself and just wanted to be eliminated.

[Peter Gibbons]

Maybe this is too simple of a question (and a solution) by why not have a small section on fog etiquette in the site rules section???

I don't think the solution, as most seem to have suggested here, is to "leave the appropriate ratings." Especially whereas most fog games are 4-8 players, one person acting outside the accepted norms of the others can ruin a fog game or get it off on a very bad footing. If there were accepted guidelines in the rules section that everyone could refer to, it would solve a lot of issues.

I personally play fog almost exclusively now. When I first made the transition, I thought deception and specific diplomacy (stating army units of opponents and location) would be part of the game. I quickly learned, from more experienced players, that such tactics are highly frowned upon by most. I altered my game and now any in-game chat is very vague and reflective solely of the log that everyone can see (who has what bonuses, how many regions, etc.).

But every once in awhile--and I think one of these games was one the original poster was involved in--people end up in my games who see it very differently. When I and the 3-4 other players in the game disapprove of the tactic, and someone reveals information about a huge stack that no one else can see, it can cause quite the flareup. Even though it ticks me off if I'm the "victim" of the information, I honestly don't think I should rate the player poorly because A) there are no written rules against it and B) I used to think exactly the same way.

In short, what would be the negative of adding a couple clauses on fog chat in the rules? Even if it was to say that all deception and sharing of information is acceptable. I honestly don't care which way the rules came down--I just think one consistent rule would be helpful.

[Night Strike]

It already IS in the Game Chat section of the Community Guidelines (the section I quoted on the previous page).

[Peter Gibbons]

It already IS in the Game Chat section of the Community Guidelines (the section I quoted on the previous page).

Ah, I missed what you were quoting there, sorry. Ok, then. Seems pretty clear, I suppose.

I would say that the vast majority of people I've played with feel differently, though. Not sure if/how the rule could be better publicized (maybe an additional entry in the FAQ?) but in the end I guess it's just left to the individual players.

[Woodruff]

Maybe this is too simple of a question (and a solution) by why not have a small section on fog etiquette in the site rules section???

I don't think the solution, as most seem to have suggested here, is to "leave the appropriate ratings." Especially whereas most fog games are 4-8 players, one person acting outside the accepted norms of the others can ruin a fog game or get it off on a very bad footing. If there were accepted guidelines in the rules section that everyone could refer to, it would solve a lot of issues.

But that's just it...whether that tactic is acceptable or not is really just a matter of opinion. There are many on both sides of that argument. A large group of players will be upset either way. [/quote]