[Abandoned] - JUDEA

[mibi]

A very nice map. We need an holy land/israel map. A little over board on that texture though, it hurts legibility. Try smoothing it out, or finding someway to bring the text and labels to the forefront more. glow stroke, bold, whatever works.

[Len44]

Third draft everyone! Please check it out and give me new feedback. I hope the parchment I was working on is now explained by the extra bonuses. (oh and I need feedback on that too)

jyor, Thanks! I'm glad people are excited about it!

Mibi, Sure, I'll tone down the mountains and noise on the map on the draft.

the.killing.44, do the bridges look better now? If not, what exactly should I do to make them better? Does the Jordan River text look better or should I completely get rid of it?


Thanks Led Zeppeliner for the offer, I'll shoot you a PM when the final draft is out (probably draft #5 will be the final).

[TaCktiX]

Len, could you PLEASE use

Click image to enlarge.

[/code]

Click image to enlarge.

As for the map itself, here's what I've got:

Gameplay
- I don't see a need for the trade route. Yes it connects the top of the map to the bottom of the map, but I don't think it needs the connection. The map itself is rather wide, making a North-South bottleneck fairly difficult to accomplish (the major reason why you'd want to stick a Trade Route or something similar there. Also, the Trade Route messes up all the bonuses that it is attached to, particularly the northern +2 for Naphtali-Asher.
- The symbol bonuses are actually fairly good, and bring attention to where things were. Add to that the fact that they're well-balanced between North and South (+7 total in South with more territories, +6 total in North with fewer), and I think it adds plenty.
- Putting the names back to the minimap cluttered that thing like crazy, and added some dead space where you once had the tribe names. I'm in favor of putting it back the way it was, personally.

[g]Graphics[/b]
- The Trade Route's route looks very haphazard and unsmooth. Most everyone is used to nice curved lines to represent searoutes. Editing that to be a little more wavy should do the trick.
- The lighter texture looks much better. Good call there.
- The symbols (and their names in the description box) are a bit too small. You've got space, make them Prominent on the map.
- Egypt's little arrow is very easy to miss. If you're going to note where Egypt is from here, the arrow, and maybe the name, will have to be bigger.

Prepare yourself, your map got
again.

[thenobodies80]

I'm back!

Your actual draft is very nice!
I have only few concerns:

• As tacktix said the bridges are very small.
• What is the purpose of Moab and Edom in the gameplay? Actually the give only a +3 (summed)?
• I don't like very much the actual legend, i prefer the old one. I suggest you to use the ols one and to work on word colors to make them more clear
• Agree with Tacktix about the trade route.
• I see you missed again a name on the West Menasseh
• There's a lot of free space in the Mediterranean Sea, if you want to leave the lengeds as they are now, move them up to have oth of them on the see. So you can cover the free space and the region names will not cover the regions (Judah-Benjamin cover Gaza)

You 're doing a great work

TNBDS

[alexandrois]

This an amazing map. Just some possibilities, maybe you could put in cyprus? but thats not great on the history side, but maybe one or two eypt territories would be historically acurate. Look up the sea raiders they really existed and basically created palestine and they had "goliath" according to the bible but ayway they cam from the sea suprise suprise maybe you could add in a boat for them. Personally i think it's awesome, great work

[mibi]

I think the serif font you are using for the territory names doesn't work. Try going with a sans, or maybe a small capped roman or something.

[lt_oddball]

putting oases is simple and making the point. Alright.

But to make the sea of Galilea an important asset (very rich sea and fertile shores): make a bonus for controlling its shores:Kedesh, issachar and Golan.
Mark them with a little "fish" and the 3 together gives a bonus of hmmmm +2



Regarding the trade route;
I was rather thinking of a path through some territories sothat control of those territories (going through acouple of tribe areas) gives extra bonus, instead of the sea route.

Here is what I found on internet:
The Arabian portion of the spice route went from the region of Yemen through two very important oases located at Mecca and Medina. The route then went to Petra, an archaeological site east of the Dead Sea in modern Jordan. From there it proceeded to Jericho (where is it on yr map? east of Jeruzalem..). From Jericho it went up to the highlands of Judea and Samaria and across to a Mediterranean sea port. The most important port in Roman times was Caesarea Maratima, an archaeological site between modern Haifa and Tel Aviv. Other, smaller ports were located at Ashkelon, Jaffa (Tel Aviv) and Acco (near Haifa).


So that would be the string Jazer- BethNimrah - Bethlehem - Jeruzalem- Shiloh - Samariah - Aphek
Not too high a bonus as a) a trade route over land could in practice be rerouted (if no narrow gorges or such bottle necks) if there would be war/troubles and b) in this map only the larger force would control it in a later stage of play..so technically it would be a sort of accelerator for the winner of the map... bonus +2.

(in that respect it is important to pit the extra bonus of Galilea sea in the north against the extra bonus of the trade route in the middle..... gives me the idea to have a counter extra bonus in the south Ziklag, Edom ..for any third player... ).

[sam_levi_11]

you need to increase the size of the legend and use the space above that is unused.

[MrBenn]

The suggestion to change the name of the map to Judea is a good one.

Graphically, the small 'icons' you've added are nice touches, and the map is looking good - although my main gripe is the amount of texture, which feels a little bit overdone; I often think that less is more with background textures and stuff .

There are other minor graphics things that will be weedled out and fixed in due course (of that I'm certain ) - but for now I think the focus should be on thinking out some gameplay stuff... I think lt.pie has some good ideas in this respect, and nobdies and tacktix have given some good pointers too

The way you're going, it shouldn't be too long before you're in the main foundry

[LED ZEPPELINER]

Simeon bonus should go up. It is too exposed with too many places to be just a +2

[Len44]

FOURTH DRAFT.

Click image to enlarge.

Okay, the map has undergone some severe changes! quick list: (doesn't inlcude all changes)
Name change,
Sea route removed,
Land trade route added, feedback appreciated,
Dead Sea magnified parchment added with extra territories. (need lots of FB on this plz)

And other changed I can't remember off the top of my head.


So I hope you guys like this and anything you don't like, please voice your opinion!

If it goes as planned, then this will be THE LAST DRAFT. That's right, the next update to this map will be the FINAL VERSION.

[MrBenn]

If it goes as planned, then this will be THE LAST DRAFT. That's right, the next update to this map will be the FINAL VERSION.

You're definitely moving in the right direction, but I wouldn't be quite so hasty

[yeti_c]

Looking good - what does "unite all tribes to win" mean?

The edges of the "parchment" don't look like parchment.

C.

[thenobodies80]

Great improvement!
You're on the right way

I think you have to make more clear some things:

• Insets:
  • - Bonuses Inset (oasis,city...): i suggest you to remove this inset and to write al this things on the useless part of Egypt land, remove the "unite all tribes to win!"....probably it's more easier to kill your opponent than to unite them ( if you thought this as an objective )
    - Dead sea inset: this inset is very large, reduce it only a bit, then think about a different placement for arrows/names, some arrows are covered by the names (masada/en-gedi, for example), try to use color to identify the right zone (pink for Mt.Nebo, etc)
    - Zone Bonuses inset: remove the black lines and use colors on names, to make them more clear/visible on the sea try to add a black small border on them
• Remove the little arrow on egypt names, what purpose?
• The white rectangle (dead sea inset) on the main map is too large, reduce it not crossing throught the army circles
• I like the camels, but the bethlehem one is too far from the army cirle than the others, move it under the yellow route
• Again about bonuses inset, there's a lot of unused space; and what happens if i hold 3/4/5/6 oasis (cities,castles), it's a +1 for each pair of oasis?
• The caravan route lose visibility on Aphek Samaria
• Try to use a more "ancient" font for title,probably it could add a visual contextualization on your map

On the whole you are doing a great work
But pay attention not doing your map too full

TNBDS

[Len44]

Thanks for the positive feedback!

Well, I put the "Unite all tribes to win!" in there because I didn't want it to be like the Judeans were fighting amongst themselves, so it's like (whoever wins) was driving out the enemies from Judea and uniting it. (and possibly with an ally or two)

Yes, the edges of the parchment showing the magnified "Dead Sea" look fake b/c I have Bevel & Emboss effect on them, but I fixed that, it looks way better.

Thanks everyone for the advice and feedback, I'll work on those this week.

[TaCktiX]

One quick thing I'd like to stress: there will be many more drafts than just 4 or 5. Most mapmakers rack up at least 20 before a map finally quenches. Please keep an open mind on the updates, as I'd hate for this solidly made map to fall into the recycling bin due to mapmaker disinterest.

[whitestazn88]

hey, whitestazn88 here for the preliminary review.

i must say, the graphics are pretty nice. but i do have a few concerns about the map layout and gameplay.

-firstly, the legend is much too cramped. i dunno what to do about it, but it needs to be made clearer.
-the dead sea cutout is ok, but it is a bit confusing with all the arrows, maybe something that says "____ attacks ___", i also wouldn't be miffed if the whole thing were dr'opped... it would allow for more space for the legend.
-as for the bonuses, i like that there are plenty of small ones, but in my brief look at the map, i feel as though there are too many oases, cities and fortresses that might make drops incredibly unfair.
-another thing about bonuses... +2 for 7 camels? thats pretty low in my opinion... i'd like more incentive to chase after these, b/c otherwise i'd rather take a bonus that is much easier to hold, like the 2 at the top of the map
-speaking of those top 2 bonuses, i feel as though they're much easier to hold than any of the others... maybe decrease the one that is +4? i'm not too good w/ calculating bonuses, so i'll leave that to someone else.

despite what i feel like might be a little too much criticism on my part, i think you're doing a great job. keep it up

[dolomite13]

I read most peoples comments and I agree with them.

The whole dead sea area seem unnecessary. I can get to Moab from Bethlehem by going thru Tekoa, Dead Sea, and Shipright, or Masada, Tamar, Edom. If I could get across faster it might make me want to use that route. Maybe take out the ports and just have a dead sea space that starts at 10 neutral and grants a +3 bonus when controlled that can attack Bethlem, Mt Nebo, Moab, and Masada.

The camels should be a better bonus for trying to hold them all. +5 for all the camels seems more in line with a 7 territory continent. Which the camels really are, a continent inside other continents.

Are East and West Mannasseh reversed on the map?

Great map thus far.

Just my 2 cents =)

--D

[The Neon Peon]

The map is absolutely stunning. I have never seen anything of the sort this early on in production.

I think you can do better on the legends though. They seem blocky and unnatural compared to the rest of the map.

[luxCRUSADER]

Beautiful Map !

Beautiful theme !

I'm closing my eyes just imaging playing this game. It helps that I'm partial to that approximate era in time.

I can just feel Ancient Israel coming alive in the way you have correlated the Oasises, Towns, Cities, and Spice Caravan.

I am sincerely excited about playing on this map !!!

EXCELLENT JOB !!!

[el-presidente]

I like this a lot.
The dead sea is a fine idea, but you don't need the arrows, since they are all normal attacks. Perhaps make the 3 land teritories in inset have boarders within their bigger teritory, like shipright within Moab, and then say the sea acts like a normal teritory and can attack boardering terits.
About the spice caravan, it is actualy +6 because there are also 2 cities and a fortress. it is fine as is, but mabey the oasis on the end is too much.

[eigenvector]

Hi!

Sorry to weigh in rather late but I have some suggestions you might wish to adopt. First, let me say that I like what you did very much!! I'm looking forward t playing on this map.

Now the suggestions:

(1) However beautifully done, I'd suggest losing the Dead Sea inset. I don't think any army has ever crossed it (and as anyone who's been there will testify, for very good reason). Just to make sure, I googled "dead sea" + crossing and found nothing relevant. To recap, the dead sea crossing severely impairs the historicity of the map while, as dolomite13 has said, not making a critical contribution to gameplay.

(2) To offset my previous item, I'd suggest adding some Levite towns. For a quick intro to the concept have a look at the Bible: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... version=76
For our purpose, I think, you can add 3 or 4 cities inside existing territs (oops,regions and designate them as a "continent".

Once again, really great work and sorry for butting in so late but think the Dead Sea issue is important.

Ciao!

[lt_oddball]

(1) However beautifully done, I'd suggest losing the Dead Sea inset. I don't think any army has ever crossed it (and as anyone who's been there will testify, for very good reason). Just to make sure, I googled "dead sea" + crossing and found nothing relevant. To recap, the dead sea crossing severely impairs the historicity of the map while, as dolomite13 has said, not making a critical contribution to gameplay.

Hi len44,

Great map... I like it very much !
But..
I wondered with Eigenvector what was the reason for the dead sea center/crossing to be included ?
Though technically it is possible (more salty water is more buoyancy > even easier to cross troops over), but historically there weren't many big barges around to cross it..fights in those days in that region were only over land. Labour and soldiers were "cheap", and building barges for a single military campaign is expensive and takes time, so marching around the sea was the thing to do.
So I'd vote for removal of this insert and crossing.


And can't you improve the importance of the Galilee sea ? by adding a fish +1 bonus (or a town +1) in each of the territ. Golan and Kedesh ?
Then the fort bonus +1 in Tyre is better to drop..


The caravan +2 bonus is ok..like I said..it is too much terr. to conquer and hold in the beginning of the game..so it only becomes important lateron in the game when someone is already strong in the center of the map...so he should not be too favoured then.

[pimphawks70]

I love the map idea and the map itself, but I agree with the dead sea comments. Although it enhances game play, I find it fairly unrealistic and doesn't really add any new and innovative ways to play the map. If you are really want to keep it in, I don't think there would be too many complaints, but I really think the map is better without.

I really like what you have so far, and if I can think of anything that would make the map better I will let you know.


Pimphawks70

[Blitzaholic]

nice idea, wish it was a wince bigger with few more territories