The Holocaust

[mpjh]

According to an international commission report released by the Romanian government in 2004, Romania murdered in various forms, between 280,000 to 380,000 Jews in Romania and in the war zone of Bessarabia, Bukovina and Transnistria.[

[SultanOfSurreal]

A long time ago, people thought that the erth was flat.It was a fact , every one new it.An everyone who said otherwise it was labeld as heretic.
A simple fact.I am for Romania.During the war we allied whit germany.We had no choise.It was either that either the red army.
The romanian jews said that during the war 400.000 romanian jews were killed.The only problem that in that period were only 170.000 jews in romania.And they were deported in a region near russia along whit the comunists and other political prisoners. There they were living in abandoned houses or in villages along whit local peasants, from where they fleed to other coutries or back to romania.There was some killing but it was a lot less then they said, hundredths not thousands of hundredths.
You also have to know that Israel recived compensations from germany for the executed jews.I thing but not sure, 1000 $/person. So the biger is the number of victims the thicker the pile of money.
Always follow the money

ahaha, how did i know you were a denier nutjob

[LYR]

According to an international commission report released by the Romanian government in 2004, Romania murdered in various forms, between 280,000 to 380,000 Jews in Romania and in the war zone of Bessarabia, Bukovina and Transnistria.[

Source?

[owheelj]

I did a google search for these terms; "romania murdered jews report 2004" and this was my first result;

http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/pr ... 005-03-10/

However, in mid-2002, statements by Romanian President Ion Iliescu and other government officials reignited this issue by claiming that there had been no Holocaust in Romania, by suggesting that political opponents of the Nazis had been treated similarly to Jews, and by suggesting that Antonescu could not be viewed only in negative terms. The Museum led the international outcry and played a leading role in discussions that led Iliescu to appoint an independent commission, chaired by Nobel Laureate and Founding Museum Chairman Elie Wiesel, to produce a definitive history of Romania’s role during the Holocaust. Radu Ioanid, the Museum’s director of international archival programs and a native of Romania, served as U.S. vice-chair of the commission, which included experts from Romania, the United States, Israel, France, and Germany.


For the last decade, Radu Ioanid and Paul Shapiro, director of the Museum’s Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies and also an expert on Romania, have aggressively pursued access to Romanian archives. Their efforts have brought over one million Romanian documents to the Museum’s archives, which became the basis for the Commission’s 400-page report.

The Commission found that systematic killing and deportation were perpetrated against the Jews of Bessarabia, Bukovina, and Dorohoi County. Transnistria, the part of occupied Ukraine under Romanian administration, served Romania as a giant killing field for Jews. A portion of the Roma population of Romania was also subjected to deportation and death in Transnistria. The Commission concluded that Romanian authorities were the main perpetrators of this Holocaust, in both its planning and implementation; between 280,000 and 380,000 Romanian and Ukrainian Jews were murdered or died during the Holocaust in Romania and the territories under its control.

The Commission also traced the evolution of the destruction of Romanian Jewry during World War II. Prior to the war, throughout the 1920s and 1930s, the antisemitic propaganda, instigation, and street violence of the Iron Guard poisoned the political atmosphere and stirred up Romanians' animosity toward the country's Jewish population. During the period in which it played a role in government, from mid-1940 through January 1941, the Iron Guard spearheaded the enactment of antisemitic laws and decrees that severely damaged the Jews and prepared the way for their destruction by vilifying them and depriving them of rights, property, dignity and, for the most part, the organizational and material means of self-defense.

Note that the entire report can be found at the bottom of that webpage.

[owheelj]

You must remember that Israelis believe that the land is theirs.

A good example of how poisonous religion is, that it makes people feel that their violent crimes against humanity are justified. The same could be said of many of the Palestinian militants and their supporters as well.

With Israel, it is much more than religion - it is survival. The Jews came to Israel because they had nowhere else to go. They have been persecuted and killed for over a thousand years by the Catholic church and finally the attempted extermination by Hitler and the Nazis. They were persecuted by the Palestinians for over half a century while they were a minority in Israel, and finally they said enough. Now they are some badass mofos you don't want to f*ck with.

Sorry for replying to an oldish post, but I was away and couldn't respond earlier. The claim that the Jews "had nowhere else to go" is completely false. The current Jewish population of Israel is approximately 5.3 million. This represents 40% of all Jews. 60% of Jews do not live in Israel, but instead live elsewhere. Clearly Jews had more options of where to live than Israel. Indeed the second largest population of Jews in the world is in the US, which represents 5.28 million - also approximately 40% of all Jews.

I love the spin that the media puts on events in the war. Have you ever seen combat? If so, were women and children combatants like in Viet Nam? Can you tell me how those Israeli tank drivers could know that those kids were throwing rocks and not thermal grenades? Oh but of course the Palestinians would never have children throwing grenades, right?

So you're saying that it's justifiable to kill children throwing stones at tanks? I don't accept that.

Now you say "oh yeah, the Palestinians are bad too", but you didn't start out like that. You mouth the same canned anti-semitic bullshit that the Liberal media has been spoon feeding you for years, painting Israel as the villain because they're fighting for survival against every raghead muslim for a couple thousand miles. I personally find that cowardly, which accounts for my severe case of the red ass.
Cheers.

Honibaz

I started out responding to what was being said in support of Israel. I didn't express any support for the actions of Palestinians. You can resort to childish ad hominem attacks if you like - calling me "anti-semitic" etc, which is amusing when you use it in the same sentence as racist terminology like "raghead muslim" - but that isn't a response to the content that I've written.

The facts remain that targeting enemies with the knowledge that civilians will be harmed is a direct breach of the Geneva conventions, and thus a war crime. The fact remains that Israel knowingly supported and allowed the Sabra and Shatila massacres - another war crime. The fact remains that Israel refuses to take responsibility and bring about justice for these war crimes.

The most important fact is that while Israel continues it's aggressive use of force in trying to destroy the violent opposition they face Israeli civilians will continue to be murdered by Palestinian militants. This is as unavoidable as the sunset. Likewise so long as Palestinian militants continue to fight for their causes using violence and terrorism, Palestinian civilians will continue to be murdered by the Israeli army. It's hard to imagine the conflict ever ending.

[snufkin]

I've heard from a couple different people that in Sweden the Holocaust is denied more often then not - any Swedes out there that can confirm or refute that?

It could be that it is commonly denied at nazi meetings?
We don´t have a law against it like many mainland european countries.
Are your friends nazis or like to hang out with them while in Sweden?
That would explain their faulty observation .. either that or glue-sniffing.

[e_i_pi]

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the numbers quoted when it comes to the Holocaust. Let's not forget we're talking about a religion whose followers believes Noah lived to the ripe old age of 950. Mind you, I give them 500 out of 10 for effort, regardless of the truth

[mpjh]

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the numbers quoted when it comes to the Holocaust. Let's not forget we're talking about a religion whose followers believes Noah lived to the ripe old age of 950. Mind you, I give them 500 out of 10 for effort, regardless of the truth

I thought it was the christian fundamentalists that believed Noah died at 950 years of age.

[b.k. barunt]

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the numbers quoted when it comes to the Holocaust. Let's not forget we're talking about a religion whose followers believes Noah lived to the ripe old age of 950. Mind you, I give them 500 out of 10 for effort, regardless of the truth

I thought it was the christian fundamentalists that believed Noah died at 950 years of age.

News flash for you genius - Jews and Christian fundamentalists both believe in the Old Testament.


Honibaz

[mpjh]

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the numbers quoted when it comes to the Holocaust. Let's not forget we're talking about a religion whose followers believes Noah lived to the ripe old age of 950. Mind you, I give them 500 out of 10 for effort, regardless of the truth

I thought it was the christian fundamentalists that believed Noah died at 950 years of age.

News flash for you genius - Jews and Christian fundamentalists both believe in the Old Testament.


Honibaz

Ahh, yeah, but they don't all believe it as a literal text. The 950 year thing is a fringe cult thing.

[SultanOfSurreal]

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the numbers quoted when it comes to the Holocaust. Let's not forget we're talking about a religion whose followers believes Noah lived to the ripe old age of 950. Mind you, I give them 500 out of 10 for effort, regardless of the truth

I thought it was the christian fundamentalists that believed Noah died at 950 years of age.

News flash for you genius - Jews and Christian fundamentalists both believe in the Old Testament.


Honibaz

Ahh, yeah, but they don't all believe it as a literal text. The 950 year thing is a fringe cult thing.

it may be fucking crazy but at least it's internally consistent. it's a mark of the theist's peerless ability to move goalposts that today's mainstream christianity (and judaism and islam and etc.) has turned into a game of "tout only those passages from your chosen religious text which are the least vile, insane, and patently untrue, and discard the rest."

In the realm of reasoned debate, god has moved from being a really mean human with superpowers who floats on a cloud reading minds all day and changing the laws of physics at whim, to some sort of benign cosmic intelligence who only influences things indirectly. and as the progress of science marches on, the gaps he lives in will become smaller, and the concept of god will become even more ill-defined, unknowable, and abstract

[b.k. barunt]

Kinda like your posts - amirite?


Honibaz

[SultanOfSurreal]

Kinda like your posts - amirite?


Honibaz

good job, this was an even more incoherent non sequitur than usual

[PLAYER57832]

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the numbers quoted when it comes to the Holocaust. Let's not forget we're talking about a religion whose followers believes Noah lived to the ripe old age of 950. Mind you, I give them 500 out of 10 for effort, regardless of the truth

You are well off base there. While some Christain fundamentalists may well be members of the KKK and other hate groups, it is hardly a majority. As much as I disagree with them on many issues, hatred of that kind is generally not their calling card. Granted, I am not sure the way they feel certain issues and people should be treated is particularly "loving", but there IS a stretch from saying you don't want homosexuals to marry and think abortion should be illegal to denying the Holocaust.

[PLAYER57832]

it may be fucking crazy but at least it's internally consistent. it's a mark of the theist's peerless ability to move goalposts that today's mainstream christianity (and judaism and islam and etc.) has turned into a game of "tout only those passages from your chosen religious text which are the least vile, insane, and patently untrue, and discard the rest."

In the realm of reasoned debate, god has moved from being a really mean human with superpowers who floats on a cloud reading minds all day and changing the laws of physics at whim, to some sort of benign cosmic intelligence who only influences things indirectly. and as the progress of science marches on, the gaps he lives in will become smaller, and the concept of god will become even more ill-defined, unknowable, and abstract

The inconsistancies in these religions are easy to see because there are so very many people who follow the broader beliefs. The diversity within each religion is huge.

Claiming that those who believe that Noah is 950 years old are reprentative of anything (or connected to Nazism, Holocaust denials) is as silly as saying that those who think we are simply figments of an alien species imagination are representative of atheism.

[mpjh]

I don't know about you, but I am not a figment of an alien species' imagination. I am his imagination.

[snufkin]

In the realm of reasoned debate, god has moved from being a really mean human with superpowers who floats on a cloud reading minds all day and changing the laws of physics at whim, to some sort of benign cosmic intelligence who only influences things indirectly. and as the progress of science marches on, the gaps he lives in will become smaller, and the concept of god will become even more ill-defined, unknowable, and abstract

That is not a new thing in Abrahamitic religions.. the early pre-christian gnostics and also some jews rejected the idea of an active superman God before Yeshua from Nazareth came along.
The emphasis on a Christian God as an entity existing in a specific place may very well be a Roman invention. Jesus said things like God is in this piece of wood etc..
The old testament probably seemed less strange to the Romans.. I bet that they rather than Christ himself are responsible for emphasizing the OT imagery within christianity.

[AAFitz]

Obviously there are some verbal outbursts that can't be allowed in certain contexts, like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater, or for that matter for a white person to shout n____ in the middle of a Harlem tenement - i believe the laws against suicide would apply there. To pass laws against "hate speeches" however opens wide a can of worms.

The definition of a "hate crime" is very arbitrary and capricious now, and is no longer restricted to ethnicity. I refer of course to the incredibly influential gay PAC, which has managed to deem any negative comments against homosexuals as "hate speech" and "bigotry". On the other hand, you can throw any kind of verbal insult at Christians, rednecks, bikers, vegetarians, etc. etc. ad nauseum. If you want your group to be protected from "hate crimes", you have to first learn to manipulate the media, and get the gullible public on your side.


Honibaz

Do a lot of bikers get people taunting them? I would think your suicide law might apply most of the time there too.

[Dancing Mustard]

good job, this was an even more incoherent non sequitur than usual

I'm going to f*ck your suck in the sucking f*ck you fucking suck fucker!!!

[TheProwler]

Obviously there are some verbal outbursts that can't be allowed in certain contexts, like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater, or for that matter for a white person to shout n____ in the middle of a Harlem tenement - i believe the laws against suicide would apply there. To pass laws against "hate speeches" however opens wide a can of worms.

The definition of a "hate crime" is very arbitrary and capricious now, and is no longer restricted to ethnicity. I refer of course to the incredibly influential gay PAC, which has managed to deem any negative comments against homosexuals as "hate speech" and "bigotry". On the other hand, you can throw any kind of verbal insult at Christians, rednecks, bikers, vegetarians, etc. etc. ad nauseum. If you want your group to be protected from "hate crimes", you have to first learn to manipulate the media, and get the gullible public on your side.


Honibaz

Do a lot of bikers get people taunting them? I would think your suicide law might apply most of the time there too.

I knew Blunt was a Christian redneck biker. I'm surprised he's a vegetarian.


Word on the street is that he likes to chew on a fat sausage occasionally. But I guess he doesn't swallow...

[PLAYER57832]

Obviously there are some verbal outbursts that can't be allowed in certain contexts, like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater, or for that matter for a white person to shout n____ in the middle of a Harlem tenement - i believe the laws against suicide would apply there. To pass laws against "hate speeches" however opens wide a can of worms.

The definition of a "hate crime" is very arbitrary and capricious now, and is no longer restricted to ethnicity. I refer of course to the incredibly influential gay PAC, which has managed to deem any negative comments against homosexuals as "hate speech" and "bigotry". On the other hand, you can throw any kind of verbal insult at Christians, rednecks, bikers, vegetarians, etc. etc. ad nauseum. If you want your group to be protected from "hate crimes", you have to first learn to manipulate the media, and get the gullible public on your side.


Honibaz

That Hate speach includes people you personally dislike is not proof that the law is wrong.

I lived in Mississippi and found that even the most racist were quite adept at communicating without using n--- and so forth. There is no reason the same cannot apply to homosexuality.

On the other hand, discrimination is absolutely alive and well down there. Toning the language has not changed people's opinions. That, I believe is the crux of a lot of current anger.. be it white supremacists, anti-semites, or anyone who dislikes particular groups or people in certain categories (any category). (DEFINITELY goes all ways!) You can force people to ACT civil, but not to BE civil inside. You can make people smile and offer you a table in a restaurant, but you cannot make people like you. And, too often the attempts to make people like each other mean stepping on some other people's toes.

That said, as much as this country has done wrongs, has a lot to answer for, I think we also can be proud that we have accomplished as much as we have. You can go anywhere in this country and while everyone will not find an equal welcome everywhere, most people will find a reasonable welcome most places. For a country as large as ours, with as wide a range of diversity, THAT is an accomplishment.

[mpjh]

The whole point of racism is that it uses a widely held stereotype to keep a particular class of people in a subordinate position. If by changing the language and challenging the stereotype, a space is created where that class of people can avoid the subordinate label and exercise more options, then we may have done some good.

[PLAYER57832]

The whole point of racism is that it uses a widely held stereotype to keep a particular class of people in a subordinate position. If by changing the language and challenging the stereotype, a space is created where that class of people can avoid the subordinate label and exercise more options, then we may have done some good.

Except nothing is really so simple. All the law can really deal with is the surface. It is a step in the direction, but as one who has put forward individual rights before, you must recognize the fine line between protecting one person's rights and another person's beliefs.

Also, race is only one form of prejudice. Racism is not necessarily even the most harmful type of prejudice, it is just one of the more easy types to recgonize and legislate.

[mpjh]

Nonsense.

[PLAYER57832]

Nonsense.

What part? That racism is just one type of prejudice or that making people mind their manners won't necessarily make people all "warm and fuzzy" inside towards groups they have been taught to hate (or just dislike)?

Or that freedom can mean the freedom to think like a jerk, and even act like one .. within limits.