Lets pretend global warming exist

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HapSmo19
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by HapSmo19 »

LYR wrote:The theory of "global warming" has been around for quite some time,...


So has the theory of the coming ice age.

bedub1 wrote:My question for everybody that believes in global warming, is what do we do about it?..


Well, for starters, we need to prosecute traitors and thieves in government and make lobbying a criminal offense.

Then, we need to reverse this trend:

Image

If China doesn't like it, too bad. They are the planets biggest polluter and we've got a planet to save, right?

Next, we need to repeal the business tax so small business can afford to supply health insurance to employees as well as remain in business to buy compact flourescent lightbulbs(the backbone of the new economy).

After that, run a government study by respected scientists to discover whether or not we are "literally gonna be cooked" in thirty years and go from there.
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xelabale
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by xelabale »

thelastpatriot wrote:In spite of Al Gore's "Inconvenient Truth," there's no scientific consensus on human-caused global warming. His claim that Greenland's ice will melt, causing oceans to rise twenty feet, is science fiction, not reality. Unadulterated scientific facts show us that, since 2005, Greenland's ice mass has been growing, not shrinking! So has its population of polar bears.

During a medieval period of global warming (warmer than now), Norwegian explorers settled on Greenland's grassy coast. But the climate cooled, and by 1350 AD, ice covered their fields and coastal waters. That "Little ice age" -- a natural shift in the revolving cycles of nature -- wiped out the entire community. However, during that warming period -- almost a millennium before the media would blame SUVs for warm days -- the Atlantic coasts were not buried by rising oceans. In fact, any slight variation in ocean levels are naturally moderated by increased evaporation during warmer cycles. Our Maker planned His creation well!

20 Oct 2005 - Greenland 's ice-cap has thickened slightly in recent
years despite wide predictions of a thaw, scientists said today. Satellite
measurements show that more snowfall is thickening the ice-cap,
especially at high altitudes, according to the report in the journal Science.

"The overall ice thickness changes are ... approximately plus 5 cms
(1.9 inches) a year or 54 cms (21.26 inches) over 11 years," according
to the experts at Norwegian, Russian and U.S. institutes led by Ola
Johannessen at the Mohn Sverdrup center for Global Ocean Studies
and Operational Oceanography in Norway.

Greenland glacier advancing 7.2 miles per year! The BBC recently ran a documentary, The Big Chill, saying that we could be on the verge of an ice age. Britain could be heading towards an Alaskan-type climate within a decade, say scientists, because the Gulf Stream is being gradually cut off. The Gulf Stream keeps temperatures unusually high for such a northerly latitude.

One of Greenland’s largest glaciers has already doubled its rate of advance, moving forward at the rate of 12 kilometers (7.2 miles) per year. To see a transcript of the documentary, go to http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... rans.shtml

15 Feb 08 - The ice between Canada and southwestern
Greenland has reached its highest level in 15 years

A quote from Al Gore:
'During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the internet"

I wonder what else he has invented?

So you're saying that because England's climate is being affected by getting colder instead of warmer we are not tampering with the world at all - "How can England get cold if there's Global warming?" =D> =D> =D>

Yeah, there's no such thing as global warming. Yeah lets make more plasma TVs, they're like totally necessary, even Homer Simpson has one. Yeah, lets use gas gas gas - after all, I'll be dead by the time it runs out. Yeah lets ignore the research, put our fingers in our ears and pretend it's okay, I'll be fine after all. Yeah, cut down more trees, just not here, do it in Indonesia that's miles away, f*ck 'em, it won't affect me. Yeah, our consumption is unsustainable but so what - I'm alive in the consumption age, gotta love it...

You fucking selfish prick.
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StiffMittens
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by StiffMittens »

thelastpatriot wrote:...

A quote from Al Gore:
'During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the internet"

I wonder what else he has invented?

I've said this before, but this still irritates me. I do think Al Gore is a douchebag (he married Tipper - remember the PMRC?), but this quote from him is actually the truth. Granted it's said in an awkward and self-aggrandizing way, but still true. Just ask Vint Cerf:

VP Gore was the first or surely among the first of the members of Congress to become a strong supporter of advanced networking while he served as Senator. As far back as 1986, he was holding hearings on this subject (supercomputing, fiber networks...) and asking about their promise and what could be done to realize them. Bob Kahn, with whom I worked to develop the Internet design in 1973, participated in several hearings held by then-Senator Gore and I recall that Bob introduced the term ``information infrastructure'' in one hearing in 1986. It was clear that as a Senator and now as Vice President, Gore has made it a point to be as well-informed as possible on technology and issues that surround it.

As Senator, VP Gore was highly supportive of the research community's efforts to explore new networking capabilities and to extend access to supercomputers by way of NSFNET and its successors, the High Performance Computing and Communication program (which included the National Research and Education Network initiative), and as Vice President, he has been very responsive to recommendations made, for example, by the President's Information Technology Advisory Committee that endorsed additional research funding for next generation fundamental research in software and related topics. If you look at the last 30-35 years of network development, you'll find many people who have made major contributions without which the Internet would not be the vibrant, growing and exciting thing it is today. The creation of a new information infrastructure requires the willing efforts of thousands if not millions of participants and we've seen leadership from many quarters, all of it needed, to move the Internet towards increased availability and utility around the world.

While it is not accurate to say that VP Gore invented Internet, he has played a powerful role in policy terms that has supported its continued growth and application, for which we should be thankful.

We're fortunate to have senior level members of Congress and the Administration who embrace new technology and have the vision to see how it can be put to work for national and global benefit.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000125065813/http://www.mids.org/mn/904/vcerf.html
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thelastpatriot
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by thelastpatriot »

Thanks for the Gore post. Never saw that before
Last edited by thelastpatriot on Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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thelastpatriot
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by thelastpatriot »

[quoteby xelabale on Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:24 am
So you're saying that because England's climate is being affected by getting colder instead of warmer we are not tampering with the world at all - "How can England get cold if there's Global warming?" =D> =D> =D>

Yeah, there's no such thing as global warming. Yeah lets make more plasma TVs, they're like totally necessary, even Homer Simpson has one. Yeah, lets use gas gas gas - after all, I'll be dead by the time it runs out. Yeah lets ignore the research, put our fingers in our ears and pretend it's okay, I'll be fine after all. Yeah, cut down more trees, just not here, do it in Indonesia that's miles away, f*ck 'em, it won't affect me. Yeah, our consumption is unsustainable but so what - I'm alive in the consumption age, gotta love it...

You fucking selfish prick.[/quote]

You're a computer rambo, real tough guy, lol. Funny that Everything I wrote was from different scientist. Not one From me. And since I am not a scientist and you sound to stupid to be one I am sure they know a little more then us. But since you want to call me a selfish prick as you're slurping down on Al Gores left nut read the entire post. Al Gore talks about Greenlands Ice melting but the facts are quite the opposite.
Global warming caused by solar flairs or by humans? Do you know? Seems scientist are now starting to believe it could be the sun. Don't call me a selfish prick you f*ck. You know the facts that are being shoved down your throat.[/quote]
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xelabale
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by xelabale »

Can you provide links to the quotes - as they're not referenced how can I take them seriously? I should just believe you?

The fact is there is evidence that it is happening, but it is not clear why. One of the factors that may cause global warming is human activity. As global warming is a bad thing, we should explore what we can do to stop it. We cannot affect solar flares, we can adjust our behaviour, which is unsustainable regardless of whether GW exists. Therefore we should adjust our behaviour. Therefore people who don't are selfish pricks.
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thelastpatriot
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by thelastpatriot »

xelabale wrote:Can you provide links to the quotes - as they're not referenced how can I take them seriously? I should just believe you?

The fact is there is evidence that it is happening, but it is not clear why. One of the factors that may cause global warming is human activity. As global warming is a bad thing, we should explore what we can do to stop it. We cannot affect solar flares, we can adjust our behaviour, which is unsustainable regardless of whether GW exists. Therefore we should adjust our behaviour. Therefore people who don't are selfish pricks.

Ice Greenland
http://www.iceagenow.com/Greenland_Ice_ ... hicker.htm
http://newsbusters.org/node/19270/print
http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-ice-in- ... owing.html

Sun
http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php?a=18
http://www.articlesbase.com/environment ... 99199.html
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xelabale
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by xelabale »


Written by Robert W Felix, who coincidentally has a self-published book out now about climate change - his background? An architect. Here's one quote about him:

George Monbiot wrote:Iceagenow was constructed by a man called Robert W Felix to
promote his self-published book about “the coming ice age”. It claims that sea levels are
falling, not rising; that the Asian tsunami was caused by the “ice age cycle”; and that
“underwater volcanic activity – not human activity – is heating the seas”.
Is Felix a climatologist, a volcanologist or an oceanographer? Er, none of the above. His
biography describes him as a “former architect”. His website is so bonkers that I thought
at first it was a spoof. Sadly, he appears to believe what he says.


Next...

Here's another quote from that same article:
"There is not anything inherently contradictory that extreme cold is replaced by higher temperatures than average. Or that melting sea ice occasionally is replaced by expanding ice sheets.

'Weather is a phenomenon which changes from year to year and right now the atmosphere has changed so we have cold weather. That will certainly mean that melting ice in the North Pole will be less this year, but next year the situation can look completely different,' according to [no first name given] Henriksen.

To sum things up, global warming hasn't been called off."

Next...


Here's the evidence this article cites:
"A Canadian Icecap emailer noted during the cold war there were two massive radar sites built on the Greenland icecap now abandoned. They are called Dye-2 and Dye-3. When built they sat high above the snow, recent pictures show how the snow is building up around them, proving the snow build-up in recent times."

This is the first section of the wikipedia entry for the author - he must be a scientist right?
wikipedia wrote:Alexander Emerick Jones (born February 11, 1974) is an American paleoconservative[1] talk radio host and filmmaker. His syndicated news/talk show The Alex Jones Show airs via the Genesis Communication Network on over 60 AM, FM, and shortwave radio stations across the United States and on the Internet.[2] Various observers have referred to him as a conspiracy theorist.


Next...


Oooh this one's good - you should really read your articles before you cite them, they may be saying the opposite of what you want!!

Your article you fool!! wrote:The most commonly cited study by skeptics is a study by scientists from Finland and Germany that finds the sun has been more active in the last 60 years than anytime in the past 1150 years (Usoskin 2005). They also found temperatures closely correlate to solar activity.

However, a crucial finding of the study was the correlation between solar activity and temperature ended around 1975. At that point, temperatures rose while solar activity stayed level. This led them to conclude "during these last 30 years the solar total irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most recent warming episode must have another source."


Next...



I like this article, it's balanced and has some interesting points - here's my favourite quote from it.

"After all, that's all it is, a theory. As soon as people start to state that 'the debate is over', beware, because the fundamental basis of all sciences is that debate is never over, that questions must be asked and answered and issues raised in order for the science to be accurate."



So, 4 out of 5 article are either not written by a credible source or argue the opposite to your position. One article points out we must continue to question all aspects of a theory and keep doing so if we are to be considered good scientists. Great! Question, but don't be upset when you get answers you don't like!!

This still stands:
xelabale wrote:The fact is there is evidence that it is happening, but it is not clear why. One of the factors that may cause global warming is human activity. As global warming is a bad thing, we should explore what we can do to stop it. We cannot affect solar flares, we can adjust our behaviour, which is unsustainable regardless of whether GW exists. Therefore we should adjust our behaviour. Therefore people who don't are selfish pricks.
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thelastpatriot
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by thelastpatriot »

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article. ... webresults<1>
http://cei.org/gencon/019,05394.cfm

I can pull these all day. Just as you can with what you believe. I think it is great that we are looking for alternative energies to power this world. But when you want to blame everything from cows, gas, and fat people for global warming there has to be more behind the movement. In the 70's we were in a cooling trend and everyone was saying it was the beginning of an ice age,
Were they wrong? Now these same people are saying the complete opposite.
No matter if the earth is heating or cooling there will always be the doom mongers projecting the end. Five years from now when the temperature is dropping you'll still say it is caused by global warming. You don't have the facts, neither do I. Why because the scientist themselves can not agree on it.
As for the selfish prick comments. Al Gore rides around on a jet. His house uses 20 times as much energy as the average house. I grow my own food, won't let my kids have motorized toys(not because of global warming but because it makes them lazy), And keep my electric bill about $100.00 us a month(which when you live in Louisiana is pretty hard to do). Yet I'm the selfish prick. I'm not making a profit on a movement that is just as much about profit as it is about truths or non truths.
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StiffMittens
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by StiffMittens »

thelastpatriot wrote:... In the 70's we were in a cooling trend and everyone was saying it was the beginning of an ice age,
Were they wrong? Now these same people are saying the complete opposite...

Another myth, read this: http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1175%2F2008BAMS2370.1&ct=1
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thelastpatriot
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by thelastpatriot »

StiffMittens wrote:
thelastpatriot wrote:... In the 70's we were in a cooling trend and everyone was saying it was the beginning of an ice age,
Were they wrong? Now these same people are saying the complete opposite...

Another myth, read this: http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1175%2F2008BAMS2370.1&ct=1


Again, this is the problem. There are 2 sides to every panel. For every post for global warming there is a post against it. For every Post for cooling there is one against it. Which side is right, which side is wrong. 10,000 scientist on both sides and millions of people believing both ways.
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StiffMittens
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by StiffMittens »

thelastpatriot wrote:
StiffMittens wrote:
thelastpatriot wrote:... In the 70's we were in a cooling trend and everyone was saying it was the beginning of an ice age,
Were they wrong? Now these same people are saying the complete opposite...

Another myth, read this: http://ams.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1175%2F2008BAMS2370.1&ct=1


Again, this is the problem. There are 2 sides to every panel. For every post for global warming there is a post against it. For every Post for cooling there is one against it. Which side is right, which side is wrong. 10,000 scientist on both sides and millions of people believing both ways.

Did you read the paper I linked to? It clearly shows that there IS NOT a one to one correlation between the two sides of this issue. The major consensus is on the warming side of the argument and has been so since the 1960s.
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by Dancing Mustard »

thelastpatriot wrote: For every post for global warming there is a post against it. For every Post for cooling there is one against it. Which side is right, which side is wrong. 10,000 scientist on both sides and millions of people believing both ways.

That is completely and utterly untrue.

It's no more than a myth put about by change-deniers in an effort to make the issue seem far less clear-cut than it is, essentially attempting to shut-down any rational debate by propagating the fiction of uncertainty.

Seriously, go read that paper. There aren't tens of thousands of relevant, credible scientists who don't believe in global warming.
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thelastpatriot
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by thelastpatriot »

Let's say for argument sake that it does exist and it is caused by humans. Then how do we fix it? How do you convince China, India, and America to give up what is fueling there economies? How do you supply enough energy to keep the world running?
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by StiffMittens »

thelastpatriot wrote:Let's say for argument sake that it does exist and it is caused by humans. Then how do we fix it? How do you convince China, India, and America to give up what is fueling there economies? How do you supply enough energy to keep the world running?

All good questions. Let's get to work on them immediately.
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by owheelj »

thelastpatriot wrote:Let's say for argument sake that it does exist and it is caused by humans. Then how do we fix it? How do you convince China, India, and America to give up what is fueling there economies? How do you supply enough energy to keep the world running?



Well all three countries are already doing a lot to reduce their emissions, so we're making progress. Unfortunately so far the rate of progress is not anywhere near fast enough. It's also important to point out that the only reason China and India have large emissions is because they're large countries with large populations. Likewise if we count Europe as a single country, rather than as multiple countries (or North America, or any group of countries to get a population similar to India or China) we end up with a place with greater emissions. China is the 80th worst emitter of green house gasses per person and India is 113th (source). It's a bit of a fallacy to look at emissions per countries because we can arbitrarily look at any group and if we choose a group with a big population they'll have a large amount of emissions, while if we choose a group with a small population they'll have small emissions. Instead of worrying about Chinese or Indians, we could say that Christians have the highest emissions of any religion, while Jews have much smaller emissions or we could say that Britney Spears fans emit far more Tchaikovsky fans. That's why per capita emissions are a much better way of looking at things - as they somewhat lessen the effect of arbitrarily selecting groups of different sized populations.


That said, I think the real solution is for everybody (but especially governments, so that we don't have to rely on people having to make the choice) trying their hardest to reduce their emissions without waiting for other people to start doing it. Going first and showing that it can be done will inspire others to follow, and clearly the West should be going first since we're responsible for most of the emissions in the atmosphere (obviously total concentration is the cause of global warming, not yearly emissions, and so since the industrial revolution the West has emitted far more than China and India, whose high emissions are only a recent phenomenon).

Attitudes like "doing our fair share" or "doing our bit" are the wrong attitude to have. Instead we should be trying to do as much as we can, regardless of what other nations choose. I think of it a lot like a game of football (I play football :P). When you're on the field you don't try to do your fair share of the work so your team can win, you try to do as much as you possibly can, and even if you've contributed twice as much as the next best player on the team, you don't stop and have a rest because you've "done your bit," you keep playing as hard as you can, because the goal isn't for everybody to do their fair share, the goal is to win, and if you win because everybody works equally hard, or because a few people carry the team across the line, the final result is the same. Of course it's a lot easier to win football when everybody puts in a strong effort, but people not making enough effort has never been something that stops me from trying to play at my best.
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xelabale
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by xelabale »

thelastpatriot wrote:Let's say for argument sake that it does exist and it is caused by humans. Then how do we fix it? How do you convince China, India, and America to give up what is fueling there economies? How do you supply enough energy to keep the world running?

Thanks for your last post - I'm not attacking you personally for being selfish (any more ;) ). But this question is exactly the point. 4 scenarios:
A) Global warming isn't man-made we do nothing
B) Global warming isn't man-made we do something
C) Global warming is man-made we do nothing
D) Global warming is man-made we do something

Simple - look at the outcome of each scenario:
A) We saved ourselves some stress
B) We saved ourselves some resources, and cleaned up our planet
C) We are royally screwed
D) We mitigate the effects and possibly save our planet

So, what should we do? It's obvious that doing something is a much better idea than doing nothing. I'll give you an analogy:

You have cancer (God forbid) - you may be able to reverse it with chemotherapy, it may stop on it's own. Of course you don't know whether the cancer will kill you or not. 4 possible scenarios:
A) Cancer won't kill you you do nothing
B) Cancer won't kill you you have chemo
C) Cancer will kill you you do nothing
D) Cancer will kill you you have chemo

What do you do?
bedub1
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by bedub1 »

xelabale wrote:
thelastpatriot wrote:Let's say for argument sake that it does exist and it is caused by humans. Then how do we fix it? How do you convince China, India, and America to give up what is fueling there economies? How do you supply enough energy to keep the world running?

Thanks for your last post - I'm not attacking you personally for being selfish (any more ;) ). But this question is exactly the point. 4 scenarios:
A) Global warming isn't man-made we do nothing
B) Global warming isn't man-made we do something
C) Global warming is man-made we do nothing
D) Global warming is man-made we do something

Simple - look at the outcome of each scenario:
A) We saved ourselves some stress
B) We saved ourselves some resources, and cleaned up our planet
C) We are royally screwed
D) We mitigate the effects and possibly save our planet

So, what should we do? It's obvious that doing something is a much better idea than doing nothing. I'll give you an analogy:

You have cancer (God forbid) - you may be able to reverse it with chemotherapy, it may stop on it's own. Of course you don't know whether the cancer will kill you or not. 4 possible scenarios:
A) Cancer won't kill you you do nothing
B) Cancer won't kill you you have chemo
C) Cancer will kill you you do nothing
D) Cancer will kill you you have chemo

What do you do?

Which leads right back to my original statement. How far are you willing to go? How much are you willing to do? What if we do something, and china does nothing? The harm china causes will vastly outway the good we do. Would you give up your car to save the planet? How about we stop wasting billions on trying to identify if global warming is happening, and instead spend those billions on the solution.
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by thegreekdog »

For the sake of argument, let's say that if you try to get chemo to help the cancer, you realize you'll remain a vegetable the rest of your life. Would you still get the chemo? Anyway, it's stupid... I'll move on.

My solutions to improve the impact we have on the environment are:

(1) Offer tax credits and other incentives to corporations and individuals who develop and/or use energy-efficient equipment. The federal government and many states already offer such credits and incentives. However they are not highly visual and are not necessarily cost effective. Therefore, I think we need to expand the credits and money offered for these types of things so that it's economically incentivized for companies and individuals to use energy-efficient stuff.

(2) Build more windmills and nuclear power plants. This is kind of self-explanatory.

Two side points (things I don't want to see done):

(1) No carbon tax (or any other tax). I think we need incentives to use clean equipment, not disincentives to use pollutive equipment.

(2) Let developing nations develop before forcing them into eco-friendly crap. I don't think Somalia wants, needs, or can use an electric car, so why force electric cars on them?
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by PLAYER57832 »

thegreekdog wrote:For the sake of argument, let's say that if you try to get chemo to help the cancer, you realize you'll remain a vegetable the rest of your life. Would you still get the chemo? Anyway, it's stupid... I'll move on.

My solutions to improve the impact we have on the environment are:

(1) Offer tax credits and other incentives to corporations and individuals who develop and/or use energy-efficient equipment. The federal government and many states already offer such credits and incentives. However they are not highly visual and are not necessarily cost effective. Therefore, I think we need to expand the credits and money offered for these types of things so that it's economically incentivized for companies and individuals to use energy-efficient stuff.


True. However, we need to go much further and actively support research into solutions.

Its an often denied reality that MOST of the really major advances in our country have come from direct, intentional government support.. everything from computers to Apollo/post Sputnik science advances in schools to cures for various diseases (yep.. more from NIH than those companies that market the stuff), ETC.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =105834436
(note .. I think you will find the idea presented intriguing, greek)

thegreekdog wrote:(2) Build more windmills and nuclear power plants. This is kind of self-explanatory.

windmills, yes. Nuclear ... what do you propose to do with the waste and how do you propose to prevent another 3 mile island (which was a success, by-the-way, since it did not actually melt).

thegreekdog wrote:Two side points (things I don't want to see done):

(1) No carbon tax (or any other tax). I think we need incentives to use clean equipment, not disincentives to use pollutive equipment.

Why not both? The positive should be the bulk, but the negative is needed to force the worst contributors to move over to better technologies when they are available. However, those technologies must be available first.
thegreekdog wrote:(2) Let developing nations develop before forcing them into eco-friendly crap. I don't think Somalia wants, needs, or can use an electric car, so why force electric cars on them?

This is backwards thinking.

Ironically, places like Somalia (well, maybe not the war zone .. NOTHING can work there...) are just where these things are needed. Often times the low-tech, eco-friendly approach is far better. What makes it inefficient too often in the developing world is the need to replace existing systems.

Also, Somalia is a prime example of a place devastated of resources. Solar ovens work well there, so that women don't have to go out an collect fire wood.

As for cars -- electric is hardly the best choice for Somalia. Its barely acceptable here in the US. Somalia would be better to look to completely new technologies.
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by thegreekdog »

PLAYER57832 wrote:Nuclear ... what do you propose to do with the waste and how do you propose to prevent another 3 mile island (which was a success, by-the-way, since it did not actually melt).


If the situation is dire, nuclear waste and the risk of meltdown are risks I'm willing to take. Frankly, nuclear power is both clean and safe (or so I'm told). The problem with many political (political!) supporters of clean energy are not tied in to nuclear power, so it gets ignored on many occasions. For example, Al Gore does not own stock in nuclear power companies... that's why it's not talked about as much as it probably should be.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Often times the low-tech, eco-friendly approach is far better. What makes it inefficient too often in the developing world is the need to replace existing systems.
\

Like what? Horse-drawn carriages? I gave a horrible crude example (electric cars) to exhibit my point - namely that a lot of countries don't have the knowledge, economic wherewithal, or interest in clean energy. Therefore, I do not think these countries should be forced into anti-pollution treaties with first world countries. It's simply not fair (says the libertarian).

Maybe your suggestion of solar power would work...
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LYR
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by LYR »

PLAYER57832 wrote:windmills, yes. Nuclear ... what do you propose to do with the waste and how do you propose to prevent another 3 mile island (which was a success, by-the-way, since it did not actually melt).


????
I do it because I can

I can because I want to

I want to because you said I couldn't
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thegreekdog
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

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LYR wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:windmills, yes. Nuclear ... what do you propose to do with the waste and how do you propose to prevent another 3 mile island (which was a success, by-the-way, since it did not actually melt).


????


Three Mile Island is a nuclear facility near Harrisburg, Pennsylvania that had a partial meltdown in 1979. This partial meltdown is what gave me my superpowers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_mile_island
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PLAYER57832
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by PLAYER57832 »

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Nuclear ... what do you propose to do with the waste and how do you propose to prevent another 3 mile island (which was a success, by-the-way, since it did not actually melt).


If the situation is dire, nuclear waste and the risk of meltdown are risks I'm willing to take. Frankly, nuclear power is both clean and safe (or so I'm told). The problem with many political (political!) supporters of clean energy are not tied in to nuclear power, so it gets ignored on many occasions. For example, Al Gore does not own stock in nuclear power companies... that's why it's not talked about as much as it probably should be.


I don't feel it is safe, but I think we'll just have to disagree there. (I will say that I lived through many attempts to expand nuclear power close to where I used to live, so know a little more than average.. but its ultimatly a matter of opinion)

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Often times the low-tech, eco-friendly approach is far better. What makes it inefficient too often in the developing world is the need to replace existing systems.
\

Like what? Horse-drawn carriages? I gave a horrible crude example (electric cars) to exhibit my point - namely that a lot of countries don't have the knowledge, economic wherewithal, or interest in clean energy. Therefore, I do not think these countries should be forced into anti-pollution treaties with first world countries. It's simply not fair (says the libertarian).

Maybe your suggestion of solar power would work...


My basic point is that your "knee-jerk" response truly has little to do with reality. The real truth is that some of the BEST 'eco-friendly technologies" are really pretty low tech and/or just plain cheaper and more efficient systems, particularly when you have a completely "blank" slate.

Solar is one example. Another, better one, though is using small, micro-wind-turbins. I heard a story on this a while back. Small isolated houses can get enough energy to fuel light bulbs, water pumps, etc. just from a very small investment in materials.

Another concept was using clay jars for cooling. Again, I cannot remember the exact details, but 2 nested clay jars (and I think a little water?) can create a small cooler .. enough to keep meats, etc fresh for a few days.

One with which I am EXTREMELY familiar is using artificial marshes to filter water. They are cheaper and far more efficient, create a CLEANER water than traditional systems. They are used all over Mississippi (hardly a bastion of eco-friendly folks!), just to name one example.

For transport, though bicycles, often with carts and so forth actually go a very long way for most. We think its extraordinary to walk a mile, but many people in these countries are used to going 3-4, even 5 miles just to get things like water. A set of bicycles is a far more practical and sensible solution than automobiles for the short term.

Etc.

Anyway, you really should look into these things before dismissing it as a bunch of "hippie hype". There IS a lot of bunk out there, don't get me wrong. However, that's true for anything. I mean, I groan every time I go to the grocery store and see all these fancy "eco-cleaners". I mean ... good, old-fashioned vinegar (and a good drying) goes a very long way for windows and a lot of general cleaning. (another topic I could go on and on about... but won't.)
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Re: Lets pretend global warming exist

Post by thegreekdog »

I will have to look into some of that stuff. Anything that reduces my day-to-day cost of living is all good in my book. I mean, I'm the guy that goes around turning off lights at work to save my employer energy costs (and presumably saving the environment).

Do you know if Pennsylvania (or New Jersey for that matter) pays for recyclables? I'd love to get my 5 cents for each of my beer bottles. Sadly, I'm being serious.
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