For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

[squishyg]

So how should we move this forward? It seems the majority is open to options 3 and/or 4 out of Andy's proposal. What's next?

[MeDeFe]

So how should we move this forward? It seems the majority is open to options 3 and/or 4 out of Andy's proposal. What's next?

The admin/mod squad could draft a proposal for revised guidelines and punishment system (ideally while keeping in mind the problems that have been pointed out with the old ones), post it here for all to see and then we can rip it to shreds and tell them why it won't work.

Option 4 is the only one that could work to mostly everyone's satisfaction, and even then it needs some revisions imo.

[Woodruff]

Ever played codeblue1018? The foe list doesn't do that justice.

The foe list is sufficient, we just need to advise new players who are unlucky enough to come into contact with such unsavoury individuals on how to foe them.

I disagree. After-action correction for individuals like him is not sufficient at all. It's fine for most cases, yes...but not for those who make it routine to abuse people as he does.

[PLAYER57832]

Ever played codeblue1018? The foe list doesn't do that justice.

The foe list is sufficient, we just need to advise new players who are unlucky enough to come into contact with such unsavoury individuals on how to foe them.

I disagree. After-action correction for individuals like him is not sufficient at all. It's fine for most cases, yes...but not for those who make it routine to abuse people as he does.

Having dealt with a situation myself, there are people who just are TOO abusive to be allowed to play. I am not talking just the occasional F$%# you or even mild threats.

One guy was so obnoxious, I actually let my game time out!

[AndyDufresne]

So how should we move this forward? It seems the majority is open to options 3 and/or 4 out of Andy's proposal. What's next?

I'll be re-reading this topic in addition to taking into account Team CC input outside of this topic as well. Hopefully we'll have a draft of some sort early next week.


--Andy

[AndyDufresne]

Ahoy Folks,

Taking into account the public opinions in this topic (in addition to a number of others located in other topics), along with Team CC input, and lastly with Disciplinary Data History of Conquer Club, the Minor Infractions Disciplinary scale from this date forth will be as follows:

Warning, 24 Hour Vacation, 72 Hour Vacation, 1 Week Vacation, 1 Month Vacation, 6 Month Vacation* -- *with repeated 6 Month Vacations should any user conduct Minor Infractions upon their release from Vacation.

For now, we've decided to go without the more bulky and more difficult to track system of roll back probationary periods. With the current tools we have in place for Disciplinary Measures, I don't think we can efficiently, consistently, and approriately keep track of an extended system.

===============================

And because while doing Disciplinary Data History research, I found the results to be rather interesting, and I know the community is sometimes interested in hard number, I thought I would share some of the general data numbers with you all. Since January 2006:

• Total of Permanent Website Vacations Issued to Date, excluding spambots/mutlis/misc: 51
  
  • Total of Permanent Website Vacations Issued to Date, brought about by Gaming Infractions: 41 of 51
  • Total of Permanent Website Vacations Issued to Date, brought about by Forum Infractions: 10 of 51
    • Total of Permanent Forum Vacations Issued to Date, excluding spambots/mutlis/misc, and those who've already reached a Permanent Website Ban: 17

===============

I'll be updating the Community Guidelines and other topics as necessary.


--Andy

[Strife]

Mutlis? What are those, how come multis don't get banned?

[Kotaro]

Question.
Does that mean, those who have committed minor infractions, been forum banned, and now only play the game, that have already served well over 6 months, will be released from that? And for those that are forum banned, and have spent under 6 months, does that time counter for them start now or later? Or will you ignore those users entirely?

[AndyDufresne]

From this date forth, users will be handled accordingly as issued by this. At Conquer Club, we've never issued any Rollback clauses for anything.


--Andy

[AndyDufresne]

Mutlis? What are those, how come multis don't get banned?

They do get banned. Repeated Multis are unable to even buy back.


--Andy

[cena-rules]

From this date forth, users will be handled accordingly as issued by this. At Conquer Club, we've never issued any Rollback clauses for anything.


--Andy

Free t-o-m!!!!!!!

[Kotaro]

That's bs Andy. Adding brand new rules and not applying them to the past offenders makes sense; they weren't aware they were breaking rules at the time. However, if someone changed how severe laws were, they wouldn't leave killers on death row if death row was now legalized; they would apply the current laws.

[Strife]

Mutlis? What are those, how come multis don't get banned?

They do get banned. Repeated Multis are unable to even buy back.


--Andy

I was referring to your typo.

Also, do you have a list of infractions and offenses, in specific that I could see(Obviously Cheating and the such is major, but a list of what's considered minor)?

[MeDeFe]

My first thought upon reading your post, Andy, was that considering that only an estimated 2% (I think that is the number that is regularly circulated) of all players on the site regularly visit the fora, the fact that 20% of all website bans are due to infractions on the fora seems odd. Us forumgoers are banned from the site way more often than what's statistically likely.


Also: How much time does it take to check when a person was last given a forum ban? You keep records, of this I'm fairly certain. When determining whether to ban or not I hope the record is being consulted and noone's sitting there going "I think this guy's last ban was a month long, I'm not sure, though, ah what the heck, let's give him 6".
If the last ban was issued on July 2nd and another infraction warranting a ban is handled today it's more than a month, same length ban as last time, if the last ban was on May 26th it's more than 2 months, ergo the person gets the next shorter ban. If it's less than one month, escalate one level. Hardly rocket science, but that maybe that's just me.
The numbers do not seem to be overwhelming, what with 27 permanent bans from either the fora or the whole site for forum infractions over the last 3 1/2 years. Even if it is the case (and I don't know if it is because you have never told us what tools you actually have) that your only tool is the ban/unban-button plus whatever .txt files you keep on your own pcs and any threads in the super-secret admin and moderator forum... well, I still think it'd be doable.


Considering that in the past infractions that were not against the guidelines (not even implied by the guidelines) but only introduced as infractions after they were committed for the first time have led to bans, I think that in the name of fairness previous permabans from the fora should be reevaluated and either revoked or changed into 6-month bans.

[Woodruff]

My first thought upon reading your post, Andy, was that considering that only an estimated 2% (I think that is the number that is regularly circulated) of all players on the site regularly visit the fora, the fact that 20% of all website bans are due to infractions on the fora seems odd. Us forumgoers are banned from the site way more often than what's statistically likely.

Maybe...but if you think about it, the fora would tend to draw the most vocal members of the site. And the truth is, the more vocal members are generally also the more likely to be rabble-rousers in nature...it sort of goes hand-in-hand. So I don't necessarily think the numbers bear out what you're thinking.

Considering that in the past infractions that were not against the guidelines (not even implied by the guidelines) but only introduced as infractions after they were committed for the first time have led to bans, I think that in the name of fairness previous permabans from the fora should be reevaluated and either revoked or changed into 6-month bans.

I agree. It just seems like the right thing to do.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

6 month ban is a horrible punishment let alone a 3o day ban, especially considering the perma-bans being handed out for minor and yes repeated ones at that.

Paying members should receive no more than a 1 month ban, unless it has to do with a REAL CRIME such as racism. Criticizing or a simple flaming of a Moderator or one of their thin-skinned supporters is considered to be capital offense right now and that's silly.

Right now, the Moderators know the likely and usual suspects [repeat offenders] and always keep an eye on them to issue out harsh punishments.

What's wrong with a 30 day ban for repeat offenders? That will silence them into submission. My God, one wrong step and it's back to the 30 day ban! Pretty severe enough, at least I think so. The non-paying members, do what you want to them, they don't support C.C.

Create a Board of Review, made up of posters from all factions at C.C. and let them review all 30 day bans to see if it's a fair punishment. Right now, if you get under a skin of a Moderator with an axe to grind, it's bye-bye poster.

One more thing I'd like to add. Having posters banned from using their pm use is totally off the wall.

Regards,
General Stoneham

[notyou2]

Please re-evaluate existing bans under current guidelines, its only fair and its the right thing to do.

[squishyg]

This revision was a good next step and it's nice to see how change can happen in a relatively short period of time.

That's bs Andy. Adding brand new rules and not applying them to the past offenders makes sense; they weren't aware they were breaking rules at the time. However, if someone changed how severe laws were, they wouldn't leave killers on death row if death row was now legalized; they would apply the current laws.

I do think that those perma-banned should be resentenced to 6 month bans under the new rules. Kotaro makes an excellent point.

[Night Strike]

Paying members should receive no more than a 1 month ban, unless it has to do with a REAL CRIME such as racism

Completely irrelevant. Just as you don't have to have premium to post on the forum, you shouldn't be allowed to buy a lesser punishment for the same offense.

Criticizing or a simple flaming of a Moderator or one of their thin-skinned supporters is considered to be capital offense right now and that's silly.

Simple flaming is simply against the rules. And those same rules spell out the punishment scale, which has now had the permanent forum ban removed.

[Woodruff]

One more thing I'd like to add. Having posters banned from using their pm use is totally off the wall.

I agree, though I seem to recall it being said that the forum system made this unavoidable (I have no actual knowledge of whether that's true or not).

[stahrgazer]

Hm, lets see what we've got so far:

Option 1

• For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would remain unchanged:
  • Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, Permanent
  Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
  • Warning, 1 Month, Permanent
  (Keep in mind, these levels don't just include Forums, but Live Chat as well as gaming on the website as well).
  
  This is the system we have currently.

Option 2

• 1
  • For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
    • Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, 6 Months, Permanent
    Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
    • Warning, 1 Month, Permanent

Option 3

• For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
  • Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, 6 Months
  Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
  • Warning, 1 Month, Permanent
  We'd keep with the general current system we have no---no probationary periods, etc.
  
  If a user comes back after a 6 Month Vacation, if their next Infraction was a Minor Infraction they would be hit with another 6 Month Vacation, no matter the period of time elapsed from the last Vacation. If their next Infraction was instead a Major/Severe Infraction, it'd probably lead to a Permanent Vacation.

Option 4

• For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
  • Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, 6 Months
  Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
  • Warning, 1 Month, Permanent
  Upon a user coming back after a 6 Month Vacation, if they go 6 months without a Minor or Major/Severe Infraction, their Disciplinary level could be bumped down to 1 Month for their next Minor Infraction. Should they then after those 6 months, have a Minor Infraction, they would get a 1 Month Vacation, and upon their return from the 1 Month Vacation, their next Minor Infraction would lead them to a 6 Month Vacation.

Then there are the even more radical schemes of sweeping rollbacks, but I don't think we can entertain any of those ideas at the current time.

Option 1 seems to have some current opposition, Option 2 is one proposed middle ground Option 3 is also a proposed middle ground, Option 4 is another proposed middle ground.

I think Option 4, however, may be getting to the point of making things too difficult or complex for a World Domination based gaming website.


--Andy

Option 4 is imo the best out of the listed since it addresses two problems, permanent bans for minor infractions and permanent records, but instead of a 6 month probation it should be a 1 month probation. And it should start counting after every ban.

The problems with permanent records have been pointed out as well, and the obvious remedy is that they need to go.

Agreed, on both these suggesteds (does that make option 5?)


Option 5

• For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
  • Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month,
  Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
  • Warning, 1 Month, Permanent
  Upon a user coming back after a 1 Month Vacation, if they go 6 months without a Minor or Major/Severe Infraction, their Disciplinary level could be bumped down to 1 Week for their next Minor Infraction. Should they then after those 6 months, have a Minor Infraction, they would get a 1 Week Vacation, and upon their return from the 1 Week Vacation, their next Minor Infraction within a 6-month period would lead them to a 1 Month Vacation.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

Agreed, on both these suggesteds (does that make option 5?)


Option 5
For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month,
Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
Warning, 1 Month, Permanent


Minor infractions, hmmmmm
Major/severe infractions, hmmmm

Who determines what is what? Maybe Moderator#1 says the incident is minor, while Moderator#2 says it's Major/severe. We have seen that many have received severe punishment for a minor incident.

Any new rules, should be followed with a blanket amnesty to all.


Regards,
General Stoneham

[Mr Changsha]

Considering minor violations can be for as little as going off-topic (that's what I was given my 24 hour ban for), I fear for the creative life of GD if going off-topic five times = a 6 month ban.

Yikes!

Also, I find it hard to believe Andy comprehends just how long 6 months is. That's two thirds of a pregnancy, more than half of an academic year at university, an eighth of a President's term in office. Six months is a long time. Yet Andy is comfortable with banning a forum user for six months for going off topic five times?

I'm sorry, but if I had my pm's taken away from me for that amount of time I'd frankly quit.

[slowreactor]

Hmm... I'm not sure if someone asked this already, but what happens to members who were perma-forum-banned under the old scale? Do they still get a chance to come back if they only have repeated minor infactions?

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

Hmm... I'm not sure if someone asked this already, but what happens to members who were perma-forum-banned under the old scale? Do they still get a chance to come back if they only have repeated minor infactions?

There should be a blanket amnesty for all, after the new flogging laws are introduced.

Mr. Changsha is right, 6 months bans for just a minor violation and having your pm gone is plain wrong. 1 month ban is long enough, otherwise why would anyone renew their membership?

It's very apparent that we have Moderators and administrators that don't have a grasp on reality. The punishments being handed out don't fit the crime. It's a over-handed punishment system that has to be over-hauled. We need some real oversight on the punishment being handed out.

This progressive system of punishment is wrong and is handed out unevenly.

Regards,
General Stoneham