For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

[notyou2]

They have made it very clear...they do not want DM here as they can't deal with his wit and writing capabilities. He keeps making them look bad while skirting the rules. Its a very sad state of affairs.

[owenshooter]

As for reviewing those currently on Complete Anything Vacations (Forum, Live Chat, Ratings, Website) most likely we will continue to move from this point forward.

Which means...

which means they refuse to admit they cocked up by banning DM for not violating any rule... the mere fact that part of his ban was for "skirting the rules" should be pause enough for them to reconsider lowering his perma-ban to a 6 month ban. previously, andy stated that there were too many cases to go back and look at them all. then within the same post, he stated how less than 12 people are perma-banned from the forum due to their posting, etc.. so, there are far too few admins to look back into 12 cases? they refuse to go back on this horrible decision, because they don't want to admit they screwed up and shot the gap when they banned him. the best thing about twill was, he was mature enough to admit his mistakes and undo the ones he made... yet another reason the big guy is sorely missed around here...-0

p.s.-lesson be learned... if you are smarter than the mods, can out write and out think them, while staying within the rules OR as andy declared it "skirting the rules", you are going to take the CC Dirt Nap...

p.p.s.-this sums up how seriously they are taking this request:
Subject: Unban Dancing Mustard

4mygod, we've all read your rant enough times. Please don't spam the forum any further (especially not with fake suggestion topics!).

[notyou2]

It took them all of under 2 hours to lock it....see, told ya....hes not wanted, apparently they can't handle him.

I wonder who will be next to disappear in the middle of the night?

[squishyg]

Andy, is it possible for you to review the cases of the 10 users who were perma-banned for forum violations and re-evaluate them based on the new guidelines? While I understand how busy you must be, if 2 cases are reviewed a week you could get through them in 5 weeks.

Those cases were quite extreme cases. The users involved were all either vacationed for: Extreme bigotry/hate speech, or they had forum violations in addition to a large number of multiple accounts repeatedly, or they there were engaged in taking down the website.


--Andy

Which of those applies to DM? (And don't give me the multi nonsense, there were 4 people with 1 account each, all were allowed to buy back in as opposed to only the first account as is the usual policy) Which of those applies to xtra?

There are 10 cases you say, you've had no problem applying rules retroactively in the past, so why now all of a sudden?

You are mistaken in thinking Dancing Mustard was apart of the group. Squishyg was referring to those who received a complete website vacation. Dancing Mustard is only on a complete Forum Vacation.


--Andy

Ah, I think you're right, when he said "permabanned" I took it to mean from the forums and not from the website.

Well, in that case I will just float the idea of reviewing the cases of the 17 who have been permanently forumbanned.

I misunderstood. My request should have been for a review of those who have been forum banned. Can you do that Andy?

p.s. I'm a woman MoDeFe

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

...is it just me or is Andy having difficulties trying to give a straight answer?

[AndyDufresne]

...is it just me or is Andy having difficulties trying to give a straight answer?

What question are you inquiring about, General Stoneham?

I misunderstood. My request should have been for a review of those who have been forum banned. Can you do that Andy?

p.s. I'm a woman MoDeFe

Unfortunately, I don't think the benefits out weigh the costs of overturning any of those currently Vacationed.


--Andy

[MeDeFe]

...is it just me or is Andy having difficulties trying to give a straight answer?

What question are you inquiring about, General Stoneham?

I misunderstood. My request should have been for a review of those who have been forum banned. Can you do that Andy?

p.s. I'm a woman MoDeFe

Unfortunately, I don't think the benefits out weigh the costs of overturning any of those currently Vacationed.


--Andy

Of reviewing the cases of people who have been permanently banned from the forums...

The benefits are: Being consistent, not applying double standards, displaying the possession of common sense.
The drawbacks are: None.

Or am I missing something.

[timmytuttut88]

As for reviewing those currently on Complete Anything Vacations (Forum, Live Chat, Ratings, Website) most likely we will continue to move from this point forward.

Wow. Way to listen to public opinion. Chances are if they were really that much of a threat you wouldnt have so many people wanting them back. It's pretty stupid how the mods have to convince us that forum regulars are somehow criminals for skirting the rules. Usually if they were that big of a problem most people would agree with you.

[AndyDufresne]

Though indeed there are a few on the other side of the argument, and I can understand where you are coming from, I think the benefits of the community as a whole, out weighs those few.


--Andy

[icedagger]

Though indeed there are a few on the other side of the argument, and I can understand where you are coming from, I think the benefits of the community as a whole, out weighs those few.


--Andy

Really? Look what's happened to the off topics forum since he was banned. Endless threads about American politics. I don't post there much but have been reading them for a while and can't remember a time when it was more dull. Undoubetdly he was a pain in the arse for the mods, but the mods aren't the "community". If you really think banning him has benefited the community, why not poll said community on the matter and let them decide?

[MeDeFe]

Though indeed there are a few on the other side of the argument, and I can understand where you are coming from, I think the benefits of the community as a whole, out weighs those few.


--Andy

I beg your pardon? There are a few what?

I'm not being sarcastic here, I really don't quite get what you're trying to say, probably that there are a few drawbacks. If that is the case, how about naming the drawbacks of reviewing the cases of the permanently forumbanned and letting them back in or putting them on those draconically long 6 month bans.

I say "draconically long" because that is what 6 months for a minor infraction are when there's no method of ever shortening the sentence.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

Though indeed there are a few on the other side of the argument, and I can understand where you are coming from, I think the benefits of the community as a whole, out weighs those few.


--Andy

I beg your pardon? There are a few what?

I'm not being sarcastic here, I really don't quite get what you're trying to say, probably that there are a few drawbacks. If that is the case, how about naming the drawbacks of reviewing the cases of the permanently forumbanned and letting them back in or putting them on those draconically long 6 month bans.

I say "draconically long" because that is what 6 months for a minor infraction are when there's no method of ever shortening the sentence.

Andy is trying to tell us that his decision is based on the majority of posters?!?! Really, where does he get his poll from?

C'mon Andy, get real. You don't speak for the majority, you speak for the Moderators and administrators of C.C.

All these complaints that some of us have is about bias rulings, draconian punishment for petty offenses and not getting straight answers to simple questions.

Regards,
General Stoneham

[notyou2]

Andy, people wouldn't criticize if they didn't care. They are vocal as they have a vested interest in CC.

It appears that CC is assessing the community as a whole and deciding what is best for the community without actually providing any back-up. This is detrimental to the community as a whole and only fans the fires. Something is going to break sooner or later.

[TotoroHat]

I will get flamed for this I am sure but I had to say something because this has gotten out of hand. I will never do something on this site to deserve a ban (for however long) because that is not the person I am. Period! It seems to me that a few bad apples ruined this site for the rest of us and then were banned from using the site for various reasons that seem perfectly logical to me to get a ban. Although I will defend persons right to be racist to the death, this site has a right to legislate things how they see fit and created guidelines to allow people to work within them or not, which results in their bans when they choose to disobey them. If they do not like the rules then create a new site or get enough people on this site to demand change. (30-100 people out of 10,000 is not enough people to demand change... you would need 4000 people for that.)

So far I see a handful of people on this site (about 30 names come to mind) who do 98% of the complaining (or posting in cheating/abuse) and the other 99.99999% of us who complain only in case of a Multi or such. This complaining is ruining the site and makes me want to leave and never play here again. Just give up already and stop complaining. You are whining like Mr. Burns stole your candy!

[jefjef]

I agree 100% with Genral Stonehams avatar. You can't argue with that. Oh and what Totoro said. I post in C & A more than I should as many others do too. But it is usually with a smile on my face. As far as Perma bans go this is a gaming site. If someone violates the forum rules ban them from it. Permanently if it's that severe but to ban someone from playing as long as they aren't a multi or a cheater for something posted in forums just makes no sense.

[stahrgazer]

Of reviewing the cases of people who have been permanently banned from the forums...

The benefits are: Being consistent, not applying double standards, displaying the possession of common sense.
The drawbacks are: None.

Or am I missing something.

Yeah, you're missing that that means admins/mods who gave out the bans would have to give out the unbans. Double the work

[stahrgazer]

So far I see a handful of people on this site (about 30 names come to mind) who do 98% of the complaining (or posting in cheating/abuse) and the other 99.99999% of us who complain only in case of a Multi or such. This complaining is ruining the site and makes me want to leave and never play here again. Just give up already and stop complaining. You are whining like Mr. Burns stole your candy!

Just wondering.. does toto consider himself one of those 30 names of complainers, given that he's complaining about complaining, whining like his candy got took that he should leave the site and never play here again because some people post that they want to see equitable treatment and have some of their friends unbanned from their prior bannings for things that are no longer bannable offenses anyway?

[notyou2]

I will get flamed for this I am sure but I had to say something because this has gotten out of hand. I will never do something on this site to deserve a ban (for however long) because that is not the person I am. Period! It seems to me that a few bad apples ruined this site for the rest of us and then were banned from using the site for various reasons that seem perfectly logical to me to get a ban. Although I will defend persons right to be racist to the death, this site has a right to legislate things how they see fit and created guidelines to allow people to work within them or not, which results in their bans when they choose to disobey them. If they do not like the rules then create a new site or get enough people on this site to demand change. (30-100 people out of 10,000 is not enough people to demand change... you would need 4000 people for that.)

So far I see a handful of people on this site (about 30 names come to mind) who do 98% of the complaining (or posting in cheating/abuse) and the other 99.99999% of us who complain only in case of a Multi or such. This complaining is ruining the site and makes me want to leave and never play here again. Just give up already and stop complaining. You are whining like Mr. Burns stole your candy!

How will the site grow and change for the better if no one complained? Your stance is just ludicrous.

Do you think South Africa would be the country it is today if no one complained 25 years ago?

How about the United States? If the people didnt complain, perhaps it would still be a colony.

[squishyg]

I will defend persons right to be racist to the death

I'm trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt that you misrepresented yourself here. Really? Racist? To the death?

[TotoroHat]

In response to those posting about my reply, thank you. I do believe that we need people fighting for change and that it would be a good idea for change to happen on this site. I however see the same old people rehashing the same old problems and rehashing the same old lines with out any new people joining the fight. 95% (or so) of the people on this site do not post anything that could get them even remotely considered for a ban and for the most part the mods do the best that they can to root out multies and abusive chat. I have no information on specific cases or the like so I cannot comment on those. It seems to me that there are a few people on this site that like to complain about the injustices and yet do not really care about whoever was unfairly influenced. They just want to complain or cause harm. (You know who you are... you who post improper threads in C & A that have nothing to do with anything or berate the mods simply because it's fun).


Also, in South Africa, millions of people rose up to stop the injustice. Here, on CC, a few people are making trouble for the rest of us simply to make trouble. (Not all posters mind you but enough that I am sickened)!

[MeDeFe]

Fine, have the pm public.

Subject: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

I will get flamed for this I am sure but I had to say something because this has gotten out of hand. I will never do something on this site to deserve a ban (for however long) because that is not the person I am. Period! It seems to me that a few bad apples ruined this site for the rest of us and then were banned from using the site for various reasons that seem perfectly logical to me to get a ban. Although I will defend persons right to be racist to the death, this site has a right to legislate things how they see fit and created guidelines to allow people to work within them or not, which results in their bans when they choose to disobey them. If they do not like the rules then create a new site or get enough people on this site to demand change. (30-100 people out of 10,000 is not enough people to demand change... you would need 4000 people for that.)

So far I see a handful of people on this site (about 30 names come to mind) who do 98% of the complaining (or posting in cheating/abuse) and the other 99.99999% of us who complain only in case of a Multi or such. This complaining is ruining the site and makes me want to leave and never play here again. Just give up already and stop complaining. You are whining like Mr. Burns stole your candy!

You have a grand total of 26 posts. No offense, but, what do you know about the fora and the people who actually spend some time here? Nothing. Yeah, you know nothing. This is not flaming you, this is stating the facts.

Several of those "bad apples" that you believe every banned person was, were to many others among the most interesting, entertaining, intelligent and witty posters on the site. Far from ruining the site they made it worthwhile to come back to the fora.
You are correct that the owner sets the policy, but the enforcement of the guidelines has proven to be inconsistent at best. In the early days some people would receive harsher punishments than others for equal offenses, this was pointed out, and the result was that the people who previously received shorter temporary bans got none at all while those who had received longer ones got the ones stated in the guidelines. This is also the current situation. People are even banned for "skirting the rules", not for breaking them, but for walking close to the line without crossing it.
The most recent fuckup was when an amendment of the guidelines that was to apply only to bigotry was expanded to ANY sort of misbehaviour. The result was that 6 offending posts of any kind could get you a permanent ban. There are people who have several thousand posts, I'd say that if you were to look you could easily find 6 posts that break or "skirt" the rules in some way for every forum regular.
Do you know why this is the case? You just need to look at the guidelines, the infractions are described in so broad terms that they can encompass practically anything. In fact, YOU broke the rules with your post, instead of meaningfully contributing to the ongoing discussion you went off-topic just to push your own opinion about how there are too people complaining down everyone else's throat.
Additionally you are flame-baiting and possibly flaming with your last paragraph, saying that we are whining is clearly belittling us and the paragraph is formulated in such a way as to elicit an angry response.
Goodness! You broke three rules with only one post. Now, do you see why we criticize the guidelines?
Furthermore, your opinion is wrong. You can't take the scoreboard to reflect the number of posters. There are not 10000 people on the fora, there are maybe 200 people who visit more or less regularly, and at most 100 who spend any significant amount of time reading and posting. Now, 30 out of 100, that's a rather significant portion, wouldn't you say? Especially when there are about 5 people out of the 100 on the other side with the occasional newcomer such as you chiming in from time to time.

You say our complaining makes you "want to leave and never play here again". You're joking, right? Have we carried this debate into your games? Have we spammed up the gamechats with endless discussions about flaws in the guidelines and in the way they are enforced? Have we in any way inconvenienced you and your 26 posts? I think not. The debate is now contained within Sugs&Bugs, there may be one thread in GD that resurfaces from time to time, but I think that one is quietly slipping down towards the bottom, page by page.

If you want to partake meaningfully in the debate, by all means, please do. Any sensible input is appreciated. But if you want to continue in the same manner, deriding those who want to help improve the site and not deal with the facts that are the reason for the "whining", do everyone a favour and just stay out of it.

We will have to keep rehashing the same old arguments until the administration finally listens to them.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

In response to those posting about my reply, thank you. I do believe that we need people fighting for change.


Also, in South Africa, millions of people rose up to stop the injustice. Here, on CC, a few people are making trouble for the rest of us simply to make trouble. (Not all posters mind you but enough that I am sickened)!

On one side of your mouth you defend the right for change and from the other side you proclaim that you're sick of those who want change.

Why don't you step away from your computer and purge yourself. Then, hop and skip to another thread, " Land of Oz" and find yourself a brain.

Your thoughts on this subject makes me violently ill! You should be banned for hypocricy!

Just my thoughts,
General Stoneham

[owenshooter]

I will defend persons right to be racist to the death

I'm trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt that you misrepresented yourself here. Really? Racist? To the death?

yeah, this was a very interesting statement... i can't believe he didn't catch it and edit it... even more shocked it hasn't gotten a "<mod edit>" by someone...-0

[jpcloet]

This thread is now 48 days old. How about a decision Andy?

[AndyDufresne]

For now we will keep with the 6 Month Vacation as the Max for Minor Infractions. If in time, there is the need for change, we may adjust the Max for Minor Infractions.

However, we will not be commuting any vacations.

=======================

I encourage you to use/create a new topic for further Community Guidelines discussion, as this one has pretty much served its purpose.


--Andy