Post here if you don't buy into the Atheism myth!

[Lord Canti]

I don't believe that there is a such thing as an atheist. Deep down all men are aware that God exists. "It has been written on the heart of men, the existence of God" (or something like that)

I don't believe that there is a such thing as a true believer. Deep down all men are aware that gods, angels, demons and leprechauns are myths. Frankly, it's just to frightening for some to comprehend and so gods and other fanciful supernatural creatures are created to bring order to their confused minds.

It's a crutch, so one doesn't have to face the often cruel facts of life...and finality of death.

I AM A TRUE BELIEVER!!! BELIEVE THAT!!! It does make life easier to know their is a purpose for me in life...but how can you say that anyone who practices religion does so to escape from the hardships of life and death?

I know life is hard, very hard if you want to succeed, and that I wil eventually die, never more to walk this earth. Then, I will have an afterlife with God if I have been selfless during my life or to live in some form of eternal pain and torment if I've been selfish. Faith is not so much a crutch as a giant wieght tied to ones ankles.

If anything atheism is a crutch. It allows you the freedom to live life to its fullest with no fear of retrabution after death.

If you live life to the fullest, what fear should you have of retribution?

If you believed that there was something truly amazing to be gained or lost, depending on how you lived your life, would it alter the way you live?

[Backglass]

If you believed that there was something truly amazing to be gained or lost, depending on how you lived your life, would it alter the way you live?

If you believed that doing a certain dance and sacrificing a virgin would make your crops grow, and if you didn't they and your entire civilization would die....would you?

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

I don't believe that there is a such thing as an atheist. Deep down all men are aware that God exists. "It has been written on the heart of men, the existence of God" (or something like that)

I don't believe that there is a such thing as a true believer. Deep down all men are aware that gods, angels, demons and leprechauns are myths. Frankly, it's just to frightening for some to comprehend and so gods and other fanciful supernatural creatures are created to bring order to their confused minds.

It's a crutch, so one doesn't have to face the often cruel facts of life...and finality of death.

I AM A TRUE BELIEVER!!! BELIEVE THAT!!! It does make life easier to know their is a purpose for me in life...but how can you say that anyone who practices religion does so to escape from the hardships of life and death?

I know life is hard, very hard if you want to succeed, and that I wil eventually die, never more to walk this earth. Then, I will have an afterlife with God if I have been selfless during my life or to live in some form of eternal pain and torment if I've been selfish. Faith is not so much a crutch as a giant wieght tied to ones ankles.

If anything atheism is a crutch. It allows you the freedom to live life to its fullest with no fear of retrabution after death.

If you live life to the fullest, what fear should you have of retribution?

If you believed that there was something truly amazing to be gained or lost, depending on how you lived your life, would it alter the way you live?

I do believe that there is something to be gained or lost, but it's certainly not in some whimsical after life, it's right here. I already live my life to the fullest; I am productive, I am charitable (when I want to be), and I attempt to flex the full muscle of my liberties as a human being (although government often gets in the way of that).

[flashleg8]

If you believed that there was something truly amazing to be gained or lost, depending on how you lived your life, would it alter the way you live?

No. I live the life I want to, to my own set of ethics - I don't need to invent some spiritual being to teach me how to live. I invent my own moral code.

If I died and it turned out there really was a God - I would refuse to kowtow to him just to get a place in heaven. I'd make a moral stand against him. If he really did exist look at the injustices he allows to be perpetrated on Earth. He must clearly be cruel or insane. I'd rather be in Hell than in Heaven with all you sycophants.

[The1exile]

If you believed that doing a certain dance and sacrificing a virgin would make your crops grow, and if you didn't they and your entire civilization would die....would you?

Backglass, have you ever considered running for president?

[Lord Canti]

It does make life easier to know their is a purpose for me in life...but how can you say that anyone who practices religion does so to escape from the hardships of life and death?

Because that's what religion gives you. You push the reality of life's hardships into the back of your mind by concentrating on how lovely the next life will be. When things get bad you just say "god has a plan for me", or "god works in mysterious ways" and then push it all aside so you dont have to worry about it..."it's in gods hands ". It's easier for your mind to accept things that way, instead of facing the hard cold fact that sometimes life throws you curve balls.

Then, I will have an afterlife with God if I have been selfless during my life or to live in some form of eternal pain and torment if I've been selfish.

See....your doing it now. Telling yourself how wonderful things will be after you die...if your a good boy. It sounds just as crazy to me as muslims dieing so they can meet the 12 dark eyed virgins.

If anything atheism is a crutch. It allows you the freedom to live life to its fullest with no fear of retribution after death.

Exactly...and thats a beautiful thing! Ya see, it's not a crutch because I'm not leaning on some fairytale for support. Atheists are crutch-free.

I don't fear superstitions and folk stories. You are insinuating that atheists live some kind of immoral life or something, but that just your misconceptions (and preachers) talking in your head.

Atheists just don't believe in gods/demons/fairies/etc. Nothing more.

I'm not saying the reason for my beliefs would be hard for another person to understand. But I don't use God has a shield to hide from the world. I truly believe in him. He doesn't control my life. God gave us free will. I am responsible for how my life turns out. God doesn't strike people dead from above or help one team beat another. I am against just saying "put it in God's hands." Its our job to insure we are successful, not his.

[Lord Canti]

If I died and it turned out there really was a God - I would refuse to kowtow to him just to get a place in heaven. I'd make a moral stand against him. If he really did exist look at the injustices he allows to be perpetrated on Earth. He must clearly be cruel or insane. I'd rather be in Hell than in Heaven with all you sycophants.

So after he created us, gave us a home planet, and allowed us to sacrifice his son he should now save humanity from the injustices that mankind itself has created. What an example of human laziness and ignorance!!!

[flashleg8]

If I died and it turned out there really was a God - I would refuse to kowtow to him just to get a place in heaven. I'd make a moral stand against him. If he really did exist look at the injustices he allows to be perpetrated on Earth. He must clearly be cruel or insane. I'd rather be in Hell than in Heaven with all you sycophants.

So after he created us, gave us a home planet, and allowed us to sacrifice his son he should now save humanity from the injustices that mankind itself has created. What an example of human laziness and ignorance!!!

Well what’s the point of him then? Why do we need him at all? Let me put it this way you're American right? Say God is Britain and the people of the world are American (pre revolution), Britain created you, gave you law/justice - sacrificed its troops to protect you but then some injustices crept in (like unfair taxes) and you shook off their rule and struck out on your own - determined to make a fairer system. I say its the same thing - "hey dude thanks for creating us and that, but your fucking up now so we'll take over" Come on lads lets revolt against him!

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

If I died and it turned out there really was a God - I would refuse to kowtow to him just to get a place in heaven. I'd make a moral stand against him. If he really did exist look at the injustices he allows to be perpetrated on Earth. He must clearly be cruel or insane. I'd rather be in Hell than in Heaven with all you sycophants.

So after he created us, gave us a home planet, and allowed us to sacrifice his son he should now save humanity from the injustices that mankind itself has created. What an example of human laziness and ignorance!!!

You're guessing that he made us, guessing that he gave us a home planet, guessing he had a son (for which proof of him does not exist) and guessing that he is a "he".

You're doing an awful lot of guessing for something that you should be sure of.

[Stopper]

guessing that he gave us a home planet

Yeah! I trashed a religion thread along these lines a while back, but I want this "planet" issue addressed properly, because it wasn't the first time around.

Given that there's the apparently high probability of large numbers of other planets inhabited by intelligent beings in this universe, it seems to me that Jesus would have to come down to each planet and sacrifice himself over and over again to forgive the sins of humankind, Martians, Vulcans and so on. You see, he may have had to do this thousands of time over.

Given that the Bible does not seem to state that the Earth was chosen out of many other options, does this "many-sacrifices" scenario seem plausible to any devout Christians here? If not, how do you get around it?

[unriggable]

You're doing an awful lot of guessing for something that you should be sure of.

Wait a minute - are you serious?

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

You're doing an awful lot of guessing for something that you should be sure of.

Wait a minute - are you serious?

I don't understand what you're asking.

[unriggable]

You're doing an awful lot of guessing for something that you should be sure of.

Wait a minute - are you serious?

I don't understand what you're asking.

What your are saying is a belief not a certainty, you can be as sure as you want, but you can't force people that something is true if they *believe* in it.

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

You're doing an awful lot of guessing for something that you should be sure of.

Wait a minute - are you serious?

I don't understand what you're asking.

What your are saying is a belief not a certainty, you can be as sure as you want, but you can't force people that something is true if they *believe* in it.

I am afraid you'll have to clarify a bit more. I am not understanding you.

[jay_a2j]

guessing that he gave us a home planet

Yeah! I trashed a religion thread along these lines a while back, but I want this "planet" issue addressed properly, because it wasn't the first time around.

Given that there's the apparently high probability of large numbers of other planets inhabited by intelligent beings in this universe, it seems to me that Jesus would have to come down to each planet and sacrifice himself over and over again to forgive the sins of humankind, Martians, Vulcans and so on. You see, he may have had to do this thousands of time over.

Given that the Bible does not seem to state that the Earth was chosen out of many other options, does this "many-sacrifices" scenario seem plausible to any devout Christians here? If not, how do you get around it?

Oh there are so many posts I'd like to respond to.

Why do we need God? Because man has a sinful nature. "All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". We are sinners! That is why we need Him. "There can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood". Enter Jesus, Gods only Son, who shed His blood that we might live.

If you have lived a sinless life, then no, you don't need God. Yeah God is a crutch. A crutch that everyone needs. Without this crutch we live on our own merit. And our "good deeds" are as filthy rags in the sight of God.


Now to address this post. Given the probability that the Earth is set in the solar system in such a precise way that if it sat on its axis just a few degrees off in any direction it would not be able to support life. I'd say the mere chance of the Earth coming about by a chance "Big Bang" is astronomically unlikely. Much less that there are other planets with advanced life on them.

[Backglass]

Yeah God is a crutch.

Thank you.

Without this crutch we live on our own merit.

Exactly.

And our "good deeds" are as filthy rags in the sight of God.

Geez...do you EVER talk like a normal person? Do you speak like this to your wife? "Spouse! Bringeth me a glorious vessel of TANG soeth I may REJOICE in it's orangey radiance!"

So...you and I do the same good deed. Only yours has merit because you worship a fantasy?

Given the probability that the Earth is set in the solar system in such a precise way that if it sat on its axis just a few degrees off in any direction it would not be able to support life. I'd say the mere chance of the Earth coming about by a chance "Big Bang" is astronomically unlikely. Much less that there are other planets with advanced life on them.

Well...that is what "you'd say", that's for sure. Why is it that you can imagine fantastic fantasies of an immortal, all seeing, all knowing diety on fluffy white clouds surrounded by winged angels watching us like an ant farm, hurling a few tornado's our way for fun and magical "god child" regrowing severed limbs....but you cant fathom that the earth just "is".

Also...regarding your "earth's axis" comment. If it is true (which I doubt...sources please again jay. Dont make me call you out again!) it wouldn't support life as we know it. Had the earth been rotating sideways, we would have evolved differently...if at all.

[Minkish]

congratulations, you created another terrible parody on an already terrible thread.


the parents have got to be proud

[vtmarik]

Oh there are so many posts I'd like to respond to.

Why do we need God? Because man has a sinful nature. "All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". We are sinners! That is why we need Him. "There can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood". Enter Jesus, Gods only Son, who shed His blood that we might live.

If you have lived a sinless life, then no, you don't need God. Yeah God is a crutch. A crutch that everyone needs. Without this crutch we live on our own merit. And our "good deeds" are as filthy rags in the sight of God.


Now to address this post. Given the probability that the Earth is set in the solar system in such a precise way that if it sat on its axis just a few degrees off in any direction it would not be able to support life. I'd say the mere chance of the Earth coming about by a chance "Big Bang" is astronomically unlikely. Much less that there are other planets with advanced life on them.

When one doesn't believe in sin, the rest of the whole issue is moot isn't it?

Sin is the construction of Christianity, and is the primary reason for doing as God says. Sure, you can delude yourself into thinking that you're doing it because you've chosen to love Him, but the root cause of anyone's strict adherence to biblical literalism is the fear of Hell.

If someone points a gun to your head, and tells you to stab a kitten "and like it" you aren't liking it because it's fun, you're liking it because you'll get shot if you don't.

[hawkeye]

Without a god we can live doing good deeds by our own will, and bad people are just nasty, not on a mission from some myth.

[Lord Canti]

If I died and it turned out there really was a God - I would refuse to kowtow to him just to get a place in heaven. I'd make a moral stand against him. If he really did exist look at the injustices he allows to be perpetrated on Earth. He must clearly be cruel or insane. I'd rather be in Hell than in Heaven with all you sycophants.

So after he created us, gave us a home planet, and allowed us to sacrifice his son he should now save humanity from the injustices that mankind itself has created. What an example of human laziness and ignorance!!!

Well what’s the point of him then? Why do we need him at all? Let me put it this way you're American right? Say God is Britain and the people of the world are American (pre revolution), Britain created you, gave you law/justice - sacrificed its troops to protect you but then some injustices crept in (like unfair taxes) and you shook off their rule and struck out on your own - determined to make a fairer system. I say its the same thing - "hey dude thanks for creating us and that, but your fucking up now so we'll take over" Come on lads lets revolt against him!

Thats a bad analogy. God doesn't bring injustices onto his people, as Britian did to the colonists. PEOPLE DO IT TO THEMSELVES. We build flawed systems of government that hurt the poor and spoil the rich, not God. Britian encrouched, God is an over-seer. God tells us that it is our responsibility, with the life he gave us, to right these injustices. That is how we prove ourself worthy to gain eternal life with him.

[Lord Canti]

guessing that he gave us a home planet

Yeah! I trashed a religion thread along these lines a while back, but I want this "planet" issue addressed properly, because it wasn't the first time around.

Given that there's the apparently high probability of large numbers of other planets inhabited by intelligent beings in this universe, it seems to me that Jesus would have to come down to each planet and sacrifice himself over and over again to forgive the sins of humankind, Martians, Vulcans and so on. You see, he may have had to do this thousands of time over.

Given that the Bible does not seem to state that the Earth was chosen out of many other options, does this "many-sacrifices" scenario seem plausible to any devout Christians here? If not, how do you get around it?

Hey, Stopper when they find another planet in the universe capable of sustaining human life tell me. For now, I'll take my faith over your "high probability".

[The1exile]

He didn't say human life, he said intelligent life. Prematurely stating that there isn't any is a bit like looking at a corridor wioith rooks alongside it and iommideiately assuming all of those rooms are empty, simply because you haven't looked in them.

[jay_a2j]

Yeah God is a crutch.

Thank you.

Without this crutch we live on our own merit.

Exactly.

And our "good deeds" are as filthy rags in the sight of God.

Geez...do you EVER talk like a normal person? Do you speak like this to your wife? "Spouse! Bringeth me a glorious vessel of TANG soeth I may REJOICE in it's orangey radiance!"

So...you and I do the same good deed. Only yours has merit because you worship a fantasy?

Given the probability that the Earth is set in the solar system in such a precise way that if it sat on its axis just a few degrees off in any direction it would not be able to support life. I'd say the mere chance of the Earth coming about by a chance "Big Bang" is astronomically unlikely. Much less that there are other planets with advanced life on them.

Well...that is what "you'd say", that's for sure. Why is it that you can imagine fantastic fantasies of an immortal, all seeing, all knowing diety on fluffy white clouds surrounded by winged angels watching us like an ant farm, hurling a few tornado's our way for fun and magical "god child" regrowing severed limbs....but you cant fathom that the earth just "is".

Also...regarding your "earth's axis" comment. If it is true (which I doubt...sources please again jay. Dont make me call you out again!) it wouldn't support life as we know it. Had the earth been rotating sideways, we would have evolved differently...if at all.

backglass, I gotta admit, I got a laugh out of your TANG scenario. Earth and its axis? That's science my friend. I'm sure it can be googled.


vtmarik, just because one does not believe in sin does not mean it doesn't exist. The same is true of God, Satan, hell and Heaven. You have never done anything and felt bad about it afterwards? And if so, why feel bad about anything if sin does not exist. So you could go around stealing, raping and murdering with a clean conscience because "there is no such thing as sin". And since sin does not exist nothing is wrong and everything is right. You are incapable of doing "bad" things. Hmmm no wonder there are people who claim there is no God. Free of all consequences..... yet we have laws.

[MeDeFe]

jay, just because there is no sin doesn't mean that everything is good, rather it means that everything's neither sinful nor good in itself. Those are just attributes that we humans use to categorize actions.

It's not an overly hard task to develop a moral system based purely on rationality. It's been done several times already.

[Mirak]

[quote="jay_a2j "There can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood"[/quote]

WHY?!

Is your God not capable of just forgiving for the sake of forgiving?
Why so elaborate...create us....put temptation in our way...make us with a tendancy to sin...send us his son to be sacrificed to forgive us...etc...

It simply does not compute and if true is not a flattering CV for the almighty...