Proteins 101 <v.24 - new gameplay? *POLL!*> p1, p13

[natty dread]

Large image added, introduction added to first post.

[natty dread]

Ok, I found this spreadsheet bonus calculator... according to this, my continent bonuses should be:

Isoleucine 5 (now 4)
Proline 4 (now 3)
Glutamate 6 (now 5)
Tryptophan 7
Histidine 5 (now 6)
Alanine 3 (now 2)

Should I change them? How accurate are bonus calculators?

[khazalid]

i see you've added a few extra linking territories based on previous critique, but to me it really looks like it could be done with having at least another 2.

T8 - I1 and A5 - P3 would add a little more nuance imo.

very nice concept, i would definitely play for one.

[natty dread]

i see you've added a few extra linking territories based on previous critique, but to me it really looks like it could be done with having at least another 2.

T8 - I1 and A5 - P3 would add a little more nuance imo.

very nice concept, i would definitely play for one.

Hmm, the thing is, I'd like to keep some "realism", and in real life those atoms can't form bonds with each other. I've already stretched it a bit allowing the central oxygens (brown atoms) to attack each other.

However, how about if all the blue nitrogens could attack each other?

Also, A4-P6 could be added.

[khazalid]

understood. essentially it is up to you how much compromise you decide upon between gameplay/realism but for what it's worth i'd like to add that realistically speaking you wouldn't be conquering protein all that often either. unless you climbed a tofu mountain.

[natty dread]

understood. essentially it is up to you how much compromise you decide upon between gameplay/realism but for what it's worth i'd like to add that realistically speaking you wouldn't be conquering protein all that often either. unless you climbed a tofu mountain.

I wouldn't? Well, isn't that kinda what the research scientists of biology, pharmacology and such are doing right now?

Anyway, thanks for your feedback. I'll give it some thought. I'll try to think of a way to add some more borders, perhaps the interconnected blue nitrogens could be one way of doing it... but would it make the map too complex? I'd like to keep this relatively straight-forward.

[khazalid]

hmm, well i'd never thought of it like that before, i'll give you that. food for thought.

having the nitrogens link seems like a good enough solution for now. i'll give it a whirl as soon as it hits beta and reserve judgement until then. gl with it!

[natty dread]

New version released. Changes:

- blue nitrogens are now interconnected.
- changed the right oxygen of alanine into a new blue nitrogen
- modified the continent boni

Thus, game dynamics have changed. Here new statistics:

Isoleucine: 8+1 territories, 4 borders, +5 bonus
Proline: 6+2 territories, 3 borders, +4 bonus
Glutamate: 8+2 territories, 5 borders, +6 bonus
Tryptophan: 13+2 territories, 5 borders, +7 bonus
Histidine: 9+2 territories, 5 borders, +6 bonus
Alanine: 5+1 territories, 3 borders, +3 bonus

So, as you can see, there are now 3 territories with 5 borders, 2 with 3 borders and one with 4.

Although now that the importance of the blue nitrogens has vastly increased, I think there should be a larger bonus for holding all of them. Maybe even a stepped bonus, eg. hold 2 nitrogens +1, hold 3 n. +3, hold 4 n. +5, and holding all 5 could give +7.

What do you think?

[natty dread]

Well, some have suggested that the bonuses for nitrogens and oxygens are too large as it is. Also it was pointed out to me that, since the nitrogens are important enough, they won't need a huge bonus too.

Maybe they're right. So how about this?

2 nitrogens: +1
3 nitrogens: +2
4 nitrogens: +1
5 nitrogens: +4

4-5 oxygens: +3
6-7 oxygens: +5
8 oxygens: +7

Or, alternatively: every 2 oxygens gives +1, and holding them all gives an additional +3.

[cyberyeti]

i love ti, make it, NOW!

[natty dread]

v9 update



large image in the first post.

updates: legend images, bonuses adjusted for nitrogens & oxygens


Everyone, please tell me how do you like the new legend?

[natty dread]

One thing I'd like everyone's opinion on: should I add troop circles? Initially, I thought that the atoms themselves would suffice as troop circles, but then I thought, maybe adding troop circles on top of them would make the map look nicer, and easier to read.

I'll put up a poll about it, please vote!

Hmm, strange. There seems to be some bug that prevents me from creating that poll... I think it's because there has already been a poll in this thread before, since when I try to make the poll, it seems to scramble the voting options with the previous poll's options!

So, just state your opinions here please.

[danoprey]

Yup, I like the new legend, looks very smart.

Not sure about army circles, I like them on most maps but, as you say, this one doesn't necessarily need them.

Give it a try so we can compare?

[RedBaron0]

Interesting map, I think something you can do to help those of the community without a scientific background is to to put onto the spheres the chemical symbol, not centered of course, since that'll be where the army numbers go. They won't even take up that much space since you've mostly got H, O, N, and C's to put in there.

A slight explanation of what each amino acid does might be nice and you have "The protein" which one is it? I'm a science teacher, and the only amino acid I recognize is tryptophan, and that's only because there's an urban legend that states that the tryptophan in Thanksgiving turkey dinners makes you sleepy.

[natty dread]

Yup, I like the new legend, looks very smart.

Not sure about army circles, I like them on most maps but, as you say, this one doesn't necessarily need them.

Give it a try so we can compare?

I'll do my next update with army circles and numbers. I'll put them on a separate layer so they'll be easy to remove if we don't like them.

Interesting map, I think something you can do to help those of the community without a scientific background is to to put onto the spheres the chemical symbol, not centered of course, since that'll be where the army numbers go. They won't even take up that much space since you've mostly got H, O, N, and C's to put in there.

Heh, I left out the hydrogens, as the map would have twice as many territories (and lots more clutter) with them. And the continents would be huge. Anyway, I'm not sure, what would identifying the atoms accomplish gameplay-wise... and I'd like to avoid the cluttering, so what if I just identify the atoms in the legend, thusly:

(grey) carbon
(blue) nitrogen
(brown) oxygen
(green) peptide bond

Of course that would mean I need to make the legend larger, and I'll have to think how I'll accomplish that... maybe an additional, smaller legend in the upper right corner?

A slight explanation of what each amino acid does might be nice and you have "The protein" which one is it? I'm a science teacher, and the only amino acid I recognize is tryptophan, and that's only because there's an urban legend that states that the tryptophan in Thanksgiving turkey dinners makes you sleepy.

This is a completely imaginary protein, at least to my knowledge. I tried googling for Ile-Pro-Glu-Trp-His-Ala (which would be the code name for this protein) and didn't find anything... I chose the amino acids with gameplay in mind.

I'm not sure about what all the amino acids do, besides form proteins, except that tryptophan is a precursor for tryptamine, melatonin and serotonin, and histidine for histamine, and glutamate is a neurotransmitter...

Btw I don't think tryptophan makes you sleepy... it might help raise your serotonin levels, acting as a precursor, but there are a lot more effective substances to accomplish that

Anyway thanks for all the great feedback. Next update should be coming up asap.

[natty dread]

OK, here goes. I only made large images for now though.

With army circles:

Click image to enlarge.

Without army circles:

Click image to enlarge.

Which?

[slowreactor]

Just a thought here:

you should make the sizes of the different atom different, according to their relative sizes with each other.

[natty dread]

Just a thought here:

you should make the sizes of the different atom different, according to their relative sizes with each other.

Well, they actually were in the very first drafts, you can see it in drafts 1, 2 and 3 maybe... it just wasn't very convenient. The oxygens will get too small in the small map, plus it just looks weird.

There are several ways & graphical styles to represent 3d molecules, in some of them atoms (at least those that are on the same period) are the same size, regardless of the real size of the atoms.

But, thanks for the thought.

[natty dread]

Well, another update, this time on the background.
See if any improvement can be found.
Brought small image up to date as well, but alas,
too lazy to upload it I was...

[danoprey]

Leaning towards no on the army circles.

Also, no to the background. It's a bit to busy and distracts from the map. Maybe a simple faded microscope or something sciency.

[natty dread]

Leaning towards no on the army circles.

So was I, but there's one thing... some of the army colours are much easier to tell apart with army circles. For example, check out the yellow & white army numbers in the no-circles version. Maybe I should brighten the molecule instead? Or decrease saturation?

Also, no to the background. It's a bit to busy and distracts from the map. Maybe a simple faded microscope or something sciency.

Aww... It looked so neat though

I'd like to do something with fractals there. Maybe I can keep some part of that twisted fractal if I fade it out a bit more... blend it in with another background image. A microscope would be worth a try, too. You wouldn't happen to have a copyright-free image of a microscope lying around?


Also, a gameplay thing. I was considering changing the histidine bonus back to +5. Because in practice, you would still get +6 as you would get a +1 from holding the two blue nitrogens in histidine.

[natty dread]

OK, check this out. This is just a semi-update, I just wanted to try some new things. Do you think I should follow this line of graphic development?

Click image to enlarge.

Found a nice public domain image of a microscope. Also tweaked the colours, shades/glows and other nifty details.

Does this look halfway decent?

[Freak Fish]

hmmm... well, i had a quick look through the photos and posts, so to make it easier to tell the continents apart maybe you could give them outline circles? that way you wouldent have to mess with the colour of the atoms themselves but it would be more obvious. then you just have half and half on the shared atoms.

[natty dread]

Well, in the latest, I only slightly tinted the colours of the atoms. And in the earlier version I didn't touch the atom colours at all, they just had a coloured "halo" around them.

Now that I think about it, I did actually try your idea in a much earlier draft. It didn't look too good, see for yourself:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2614/proteinmap6.jpg

I appreciate your feedback, but I got the impression that most here agree that the continents have been made obvious enough already. However, if that's not the case, then I'm willing to make compromises. Let's hear more opinions on the matter.

[natty dread]

This is version # 12.

Click image to enlarge.

I think this looks nice. What do you think?