The Jesus Freaks Forums

[CrazyAnglican]

Heavycola,

Hey Bud,

Only have time for one post a night. I'm not ignoring you. Tomorrow's Karate night so I'll respond on Friday. Great post by the way! I think we're both really stepping it up.

Your friend,

CrazyAnglican

[flashleg8]

Thanks for the reply

My argument is not that God exists, it is that whether you believe in God or not it is a decision you made by extending beyond the current evidence.

Sorry I seem to have got slightly the wrong jist of your previous posts but as you said I'm not really arguing against you as I do agree with this. Although I would qualify it by saying that I did use reasoned arguments based on the evidence (as I see it) to come to my decision (as you no doubt use different perhaps more personal experiences to come to your belief). I do agree though, that using the available evidence itself cannot conclusively prove the non-existence (or indeed existence) of God/gods.

Here's where we disagree. This sounds logical, but its the atheist stance "Let's not talk about God and maybe he'll go away" I submit that there is nothing natural about atheism. If it were a natural response for humans to deny the existence of God then one would assume that most people would be atheistic. Atheists are one of many points of view about God. They are by no means dominant. The archaeological record is filled with evidence back to the Neandethals that religious belief seems to be integral to the human psyche. You are confusing ignorance of God with denial of God. I assume you haven't actually raised any kids completely in isolation from both atheistic and religious ideas to check if this was right.

You raise a good point here, I would concede the point that throughout history people from every part of the world and all known cultures have developed some form of religion and have held spiritual/supernatural beliefs. There has been no known truly atheist societies found (bar perhaps some Buddhist sects, which though technically atheist [have not God] in the strictest use of the word, would not be what we would call atheist in the wider sense of the definition). On first look this would indeed seem to confirm your assertion, that there is some inherent sense of the divine that people are born with (and some people argue that all religions are merely one facet, or different interpretations of this) but I would dispute this. What I would propose (and you are indeed correct to point out that the only way to prove this would be to raise a child in complete isolation) is that primitive societies (for lack of a better term) did not have the benefit of the scientific method to explain the world around them. In the drive to explain and control their environment the existence of supernatural beings might have appeared quite logical - how else could stone-age man explain an earthquake, or a Greek a thunder bolt, or even an 18th century American the creation of the universe? When more and more of these phenomenons are explained the need for divine or supernatural explanations is less. Why is religion here at all then you might ask? We must also remember that cultural and traditional influences are passed on through the generations. I presume you, for example, would teach your children about your faith and raise them in it (as you presumably have found this useful to your life). Society allows this as the messages from most religions are still compatible with modern life (in the cases where it is not - like human sacrifice etc these religions have disappeared). But the main reason I believe religions are still practiced in society today is that idea of life after death is an attractive one to humans who share a fear of death.
Sorry for the long and rambling post, hope it makes at least partial sense!
P.S. The kid I've got locked in the basement cupboard should be able to tell us the definitive answer in a few years

[2dimes]

Hey Heavy;

I haven't been running in these for a while. I enjoyed being called disenginious (sp?). So yeah a comment and a couple questions. What's the rapture index at?

Something in here caught my eye.

To be honest, most of the arguments I have been having on this board have been with the fire 'n' brimstone/creationist/rapture ready crowd - i shouldn't have been presumptious. My apols.
I have not read the whole bible, but I have read enough. I went to two religious schools, took exams in 'Scripture'... Reading all four gospels and going to church every day did nothing for me. God coulda had me if he wanted!

You say you took exams and God coulda had you. Did God write the exams?

I ask because I think it's kind of strange and perhaps silly to have exams on the bible.

I suspect the organization that was responsible for the tests was a highly respected church. Some one's probably going to disagree with this but if one person states that there is only one way to interpret things that sounds to me like a cult. I think that's kind of what you've been saying too.

Read this then I'll tell you what it really says. How can you do that with any literature?

The best analogy I can think of was when I saw an interview with a song writer who was saying "I know when I get it right, every person comes up to me and tells me the song means something different to them."

I don't believe you can narrow things down to "It's like this and you better believe it the way I tell you." with the bible because it's more personal.

It's letters and stories. If you read them they usually make sense and talk about things that are still quite the same things that people are challenged by in their lives around 2000 years after they were written. It should kind of talk to everyone in their own internal voice.

I guess I'm just saying religion kind of sucks, there's too much crap introduced because it's run by people. Some of those people try to pretend they are not just as scummy as me. Carry on everyone.

[kclborat]

I hate to sound like I'm just espousing rhetoric, but fear is a common tactic employed by religion to keep their followers in line. Of course, they have their own reasons to believe, but one of the main drives for someone to join a religion is the fear of what is going to happen to their soul, or whatever they believe. For example, "if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord and don't accept him into your heart, then you will go to hell". Also, from this springs the common argument, why not believe? To paraphrase: "If I believe, I'll go to heaven. If I don't believe I'll go to hell. There is no downside to believing, therefore why should I not believe?" Personally, I hate this argument, because it goes away from the tenet of faith rather than coercion/fear as well as it doesn't address that some people, like me, would feel that believing would change my life in a way that I would not like. Thats all for this moment.

[flashleg8]

I hate to sound like I'm just espousing rhetoric, but fear is a common tactic employed by religion to keep their followers in line. Of course, they have their own reasons to believe, but one of the main drives for someone to join a religion is the fear of what is going to happen to their soul, or whatever they believe. For example, "if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord and don't accept him into your heart, then you will go to hell". Also, from this springs the common argument, why not believe? To paraphrase: "If I believe, I'll go to heaven. If I don't believe I'll go to hell. There is no downside to believing, therefore why should I not believe?" Personally, I hate this argument, because it goes away from the tenet of faith rather than coercion/fear as well as it doesn't address that some people, like me, would feel that believing would change my life in a way that I would not like. Thats all for this moment.

Possibly...I would also add that there are social pressures as well (for example ostrisization, peer group pressures etc), but these could work both ways I suppose, depending on the community.

[kclborat]

Good point. Truthfully, my post is not as applicable on the personal sense but more in the general concept of religion. Also understand I am not saying fear is the only reason people join religions. I'm just saying it plays a part.

[unriggable]

I hate to sound like I'm just espousing rhetoric, but fear is a common tactic employed by religion to keep their followers in line. Of course, they have their own reasons to believe, but one of the main drives for someone to join a religion is the fear of what is going to happen to their soul, or whatever they believe. For example, "if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord and don't accept him into your heart, then you will go to hell". Also, from this springs the common argument, why not believe? To paraphrase: "If I believe, I'll go to heaven. If I don't believe I'll go to hell. There is no downside to believing, therefore why should I not believe?" Personally, I hate this argument, because it goes away from the tenet of faith rather than coercion/fear as well as it doesn't address that some people, like me, would feel that believing would change my life in a way that I would not like. Thats all for this moment.

Funny because you don't actually believe, you just 'pretend' to believe. It's Pascal's wager, which really blows.

[The1exile]

Pascal's Wager doesn't take into account that there is a downside to believing, which there is (for a start, you have to argue with us atheists/agnostics/normal people in the forums )

[heavycola]

Pascal's Wager doesn't take into account that there is a downside to believing, which there is (for a start, you have to argue with us atheists/agnostics/normal people in the forums )

Pascal's wager - reductio ad absurdum: you should find the religion/sect that has the very worst kind of hell, and believe in that...

[CrazyAnglican]

Hello All,

I have to admit that I have thoroughly enjoyed this little game. When starting out I had two goals. To remain positive and not insult anyone for their beliefs, to state my position that everyone is entitled to espouse their beliefs and no one has to put up with harrasment because of them, and (as the debate unfolded) I added a third to point out that using buzz words to make your argument sound reasonable and by process of elimination the opposing side unreasonable is a fallacy "poisoning the well" that doesn't work. So my argument centered around the statements that atheists were open-minded, and scientific (leaving Christians closed-minded and primitive) and that atheism was the natural state. Heavycola conceded that he was no more open to embracing my argument than I was his. Flash leg 8, an atheist and a scientist, agreed that both outlooks are equally out of reach for the scientific method with the current evidence. As to atheism being the natural state for humans (leaving Christianity an unnatural burden placed on us by others) I'll be praying for the child in your basement flash leg 8
I have avoided tellling you my reasons for being a Christian, because I really am not trying to convert you. I tell you this as a warning, because you may want to ignore my next paragraph When I go to Church I am in a group of people who are trying their best to do good work in a world that doesn't always embrace good work. I have seen a positive environment that I want my children to grow up in. I have seen people literally change over a short time into relaxed, happy, and (in my case fulfilled) people. I call that the influence of the Holy Spirit, but whatever you call it I hope that you find, because it rocks.
Are there atheists who are as happy? I hope so. The same goes for Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and the guys who worship a head of cabbage named Bob. I have found what works for me, and anyone who comes into contact with me is likely to hear about it. I once again state that nobody should be shut up. You take away a group's speech, then comes their freedom, and then comes their lives. Haven't we seen that enough?

I leave you with this. If a group of guys announce that they would like Christians to come together and discuss Christianity. There is nothing really wrong with that. Perhaps if you come into that strand hurling insults at them, and trying to change the site into something it was never meant to be, you are saying more about yourself than you are about them. That goes for the Christians who I'm sure show up on your sites as well. Respecting other beliefs and doing your best to share the ideas that have lead to your greatest happiness are really not bad things. Hopefully in my posts I have shown that I obey two commandments "Love the Lord with all my heart, soul, and mind" and love my neighbors as myself.

I look forward to some sleep, my friends. This stuff is really time consuming.

CrazyAnglican

[unriggable]

You aren't necessarily a bad person by not being christian. Atheists do good things as well, not from fear of an eternity of damnation but rather because it is a good thing to do.

[Caleb the Cruel]

You aren't necessarily a bad person by not being christian. Atheists do good things as well, not from fear of an eternity of damnation but rather because it is a good thing to do.

And how do atheists decide what a 'good deed' is?

[flashleg8]

You aren't necessarily a bad person by not being christian. Atheists do good things as well, not from fear of an eternity of damnation but rather because it is a good thing to do.

And how do atheists decide what a 'good deed' is?

A good point. But you've got to remember here that Atheism isn't an ideology - it's merely the disbelief of a divine being. There's no one rule for all atheists. Some people would describe themselves as "humanists" where they would work out their own ethical code - others might just not give a sh*t!

[luns101]

If someone is an atheist or an agnostic, then why would they come over to the Jesus Freaks forum in the first place. Could it be that deep inside they are actually searching? I attempted some rationale discourse with people in a different forum. What I got was name-calling, cursing, and told to shut up and get out!

So, I respected that and moved over here to talk reasonably with other fellow Christians, and interested people. So, what happened?...I see a lot of you coming over here now and trying to say that we Christians are using "fear" in order to control people. Now, who's being unreasonable!

What exactly is it you atheists fear? Could it be that in the back of your mind somewhere you might be a little scared of a final judgment? I mean, if we Christians are so wrong, what is it going hurt anyone if we spend our lives trying to love our fellow man and assisting him? Is that really such a threat?

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. I remember sounding just like some of you in my youth. I thank God that someone was brave enough to still tell me about Jesus even though I threatened them and cursed them out constantly. Eventually, their love was stronger than my hatred. I read the Bible for myself without any commentary.

I'm sure for those of you who are atheists, you probably feel I am a self-righteous, arrogant, condescending, moralist trying to impose my views on others using "fear" tactics such as hell. You couldn't be more wrong. I (and other Christians) really do care about your soul. It is so exhilirating to feel the freedom of being forgiven and share that with others.

My prayer is that some of you will lower your defenses a little bit, and try to understand a Christian's motivation for our beliefs. It gets really exhausting to have you guys tell us why we believe what we believe, and our motivations. We are perfectly capable of explaining ourselves without having you guys ascribe false pretenses towards us.

[flashleg8]

What exactly is it you atheists fear? Could it be that in the back of your mind somewhere you might be a little scared of a final judgment?

Well, they do say there are no atheists in the trenches

[2dimes]

I mean, if we Christians are so wrong, what is it going hurt anyone if we spend our lives trying to love our fellow man and assisting him? Is that really such a threat?

No, generally the threat is when someone tells me I'm going to be punished for sinning.

The bigger issue is that when you help someone I never see it on the news.

But we do see a story on the news when some "christian" takes out an abortion clinic doctor.

It's easier to be prejudice and lump all of "your type" into one group. Murderer.

[Backglass]

And how do atheists decide what a 'good deed' is?

What a silly, telling question.

How do YOU decide what a "good deed" is?

[The1exile]

And how do atheists decide what a 'good deed' is?

If it makes people happy without making anyone less happy, that's generally a good deed.

[Backglass]

If someone is an atheist or an agnostic, then why would they come over to the Jesus Freaks forum in the first place

I visit all the forums. The only reason I am replying is because I saw your post asking atheists (me) questions.

What exactly is it you atheists fear? Could it be that in the back of your mind somewhere you might be a little scared of a final judgment?

. No, but nice try. I am not scared of superstitions and folklore. Obviously you are.

I mean, if we Christians are so wrong, what is it going hurt anyone if we spend our lives trying to love our fellow man and assisting him? Is that really such a threat?

You are perfectly welcome to live as deluded as you wish...drug addicts do it all the time and live happy, albeit deluded lives.

But the problem is it doesn't stop there. Teach our delusions in the schools. Put our commandments at the courthouse, etc. Leave everyone alone, and the world leaves you alone.

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. I remember sounding just like some of you in my youth.

And I finally realized I was an atheist at 40. I DID grow up.

I thank God that someone was brave enough to still tell me about Jesus even though I threatened them and cursed them out constantly. Eventually, their love was stronger than my hatred. I read the Bible for myself without any commentary.

In other words, you were succesfully indoctrinated into the cult. Congratulations.

For the record...I don't hate you.

I'm sure for those of you who are atheists, you probably feel I am a self-righteous, arrogant, condescending, moralist trying to impose my views on others using "fear" tactics such as hell.

Not really. You have started preaching to me yet about how evil I am and how you are born again and thus going on to wonderful things whilst the rest of us will burn in hell. That will come I am sure though.

You couldn't be more wrong. I (and other Christians) really do care about your soul. It is so exhilirating to feel the freedom of being forgiven and share that with others.

I don't need fantasies and superstitions to feel good about myself or my place in the world. I have that exhilarating feeling every night playing with my kids and raising a family.

My prayer is that some of you will lower your defenses a little bit, and try to understand a Christian's motivation for our beliefs.

Save your rituals for someone else, thanks. I hope someday that you realize that you were right in the first place and for some reason allowed yourself to be swayed by cultists.

[unriggable]

You aren't necessarily a bad person by not being christian. Atheists do good things as well, not from fear of an eternity of damnation but rather because it is a good thing to do.

And how do atheists decide what a 'good deed' is?

Because it is good for somebody else... If you need 'divine guidance' to control your actions, I am speechless.

I don't think "hope I get to cloud nine!" When I give a homeless man spare change. No, I think "good health to this fellow". However, you think through the process like "hope i don't burn for an eternity!"

[flashleg8]

I don't think "hope I get to cloud nine!" When I give a homeless man spare change. No, I think "good health to this fellow". However, you think through the process like "hope i don't burn for an eternity!"

I agree completely. When I kick a homeless man in the head to steal the spare change you just gave him, I don't think "hope i don't burn for an eternity". No I think "hope it's a pound coin in his hand"

[luns101]

I've been reading some of the responses to my previous post. It's interesting to see what some of you consider a threat.

If someone tells you that you are going to hell, you consider that a threat? If I was an atheist and didn't believe in heaven or hell, I wouldn't even take the time to come to a forum and read what a bunch of Christians were talking about, much less consider it serious discussion. But the fact is, you guys ARE coming here, you ARE reading what we're saying, and you ARE taking the time to try and refute it.

When people tell me what I consider to be fairy tales, I brush it off and go on with my life. It's ridiculous to spend time trying to refute it. But you guys are not just brushing it off...you are STILL here reading and refuting. In some way, that means that you do take the concept of eternal judgement for sinning seriously.

I think some of you are secretly searching for the truth. I don't think you would admit it here in this forum, but you are taking time to at least read what we have to say. I invite you to read the book of LUKE for yourself with no commentary from anyone. I also ask that before you read it, throw up a little challenge to God to prove Himself to you. If you're taking the time to read this post, why not take the time to read the Bible. Even if you don't think it's true, it's still a good read.

God does exist or the Boston Red Sox would not have been allowed to win the World Series a couple of years ago! (Come on guys, we can joke around a little bit, eh?)

[LewisJB3]

Very good point, why do you feel the need to refute us? We aren't (other than the people some of you were talking about who bomb abortion clinics) bothering you or anything like that. I wish that the whole world would listen to us and beocome christians, but I don't understand why you feel the reason to try and tell us how wrong we are. If you think that we act the same way that drug adics act then why don't you try to help the drug addicts? Instead of trying to tell some people that help other people and have jobs and help the comunity, why don't you help the drug addicts and come to us when there aren't any drug adicts left?

exactly luns, that'd be impossible otherwise, lol

[Backglass]

If someone tells you that you are going to hell, you consider that a threat?

I don't feel threatened at all, actually. To me it's like having an adult seriously warn me that if I don't start living my life to please Santa Claus, he will never come.

If I was an atheist and didn't believe in heaven or hell, I wouldn't even take the time to come to a forum and read what a bunch of Christians were talking about, much less consider it serious discussion.

If I were a christian, I wouldn't go onto forums and preach about it, but would keep my religious beliefs a private matter.

But the fact is, you guys ARE coming here, you ARE reading what we're saying, and you ARE taking the time to try and refute it.

But he fact is you guys continue to start posts about gods, jesus, hell and the bible. You ARE taking the time to preach about it.

When people tell me what I consider to be fairy tales, I brush it off and go on with my life.

When people tell me I must "hate god" or am "secretly searching" for something, I crack up as these are deluded rantings of someone who cant come to grips with or explain the finality of death, the injustices of the world or our existence.

It's ridiculous to spend time trying to refute it. But you guys are not just brushing it off...you are STILL here reading and refuting.

Why? I like debate. Evidently you do to as you continue to reply.

In some way, that means that you do take the concept of eternal judgement for sinning seriously.

If that makes you feel better about yourself, believe it. But it is false.

I think some of you are secretly searching for the truth. I don't think you would admit it here in this forum, but you are taking time to at least read what we have to say.

I find it comical that by debating you, you think I am secretly wanting to believe. What a hilarious premise! I guess the gun control crowed secretly wants to shoot guns and the anti-abortionists secretly want to give women a choice.

I invite you to read the book of LUKE for yourself with no commentary from anyone. I also ask that before you read it, throw up a little challenge to God to prove Himself to you. If you're taking the time to read this post, why not take the time to read the Bible. Even if you don't think it's true, it's still a good read.

I invite you to open your eyes, clear your mind and quit living for and worshiping ssupernatural creatures. You are an adult, this is 2007. The cold hard facts are that it's just us pal.

God does exist or the Boston Red Sox would not have been allowed to win the World Series a couple of years ago! (Come on guys, we can joke around a little bit, eh?)

Some would say that was the work of your satan.

Very good point, why do you feel the need to refute us?

WHy do you feel the need to flaunt your religious ideals on a risk game site?

I wish that the whole world would listen to us and beocome christians

I wish the whole world could abandon ALL religious and live without the killing, war and greed that comes along with it.

If you think that we act the same way that drug adics act then why don't you try to help the drug addicts?

I am. Throw away your crutch, cold turkey. You can do it!!!

Instead of trying to tell some people that help other people and have jobs and help the comunity, why don't you help the drug addicts and come to us when there aren't any drug adicts left?

I cant quite follow your deluded line of thinking, but I think you are implying that only christians do good deeds, have jobs and help the community. This is the typical preacher ranting about atheists. They don't believe in any gods, so they MUST be bad, unhappy, evil people. It is a very arrogant position and of course, very wrong. Believing in supernatural creatures is not a prerequisite to helping ones fellow man.

We are just like you...without the superstitious part.

[luns101]

Actually, Jesus said, "Go into all the world and and preach the good news to all creation". So....if you were a Christian you would follow the instructions of Jesus. How do you know what you would do if you were a Christian since you find it so unbelievable in the first place? I came here to talk with other Christians in between taking my turns in games, not enter an apologetics forum.

I wholeheartedly agree with Backglass' comment on the fact that being a Christian is not a prerequisite to doing good deeds. In fact, one of my friends on this site who happens to be an atheist (Leatnic) does good deeds all the time. My point would be the motivation for performing those deeds.

The Bible says that no amount of "good works" will ever earn someone the right to enter heaven. That was taken care of on the cross when Jesus died for our sins. "So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." - Hebrews 9:28

I guess what I really find offensive of skeptics is their re-defining of our views as "flaunting" our beliefs. That insinuates arrogance and condescension. I also object to the idea that we have abadoned all forms of reason by accepting Christ. Pesonally, it took me some time to make the "leap of faith". I did not make the decision lightly or "delude" myself.

Finally, the existence of Satan is proven by the Chicago Cubs inability to win the World Series! Obviously, that's another joke.[/quote]