150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

[thenobodies80]

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[Raskholnikov]

Thank you. My apologies if I was too harsh. But please, next time, If you have a question, ask first. It will avoid this kind of unpleasantness for everyone involved.

[captainwalrus]

Thank you. My apologies if I was too harsh. But please, next time, If you have a question, ask first. It will avoid this kind of unpleasantness for everyone involved.

Maybe you should UPDATE THE FIRST POST.
Sorry if I have posted that a lot but it really makes me unreasonably angry.

[Raskholnikov]

We are not ready to update the first post. We do not yet have a new, complete map to do so. We are working on it. As soon as we have a complete new map we will update the first post - promised!

[wcaclimbing]

Why are you using that map you have in your first post instead of Pork's version?
His looks quite a bit better than what you've got now.

EDIT: Go update your first post! I had assumed that the mess you have on page one is your most recent image. The point of updating the first post is so we can see that Pork's version is the most recent one.



And why is Europe upside down?

[Raskholnikov]

Yes, the first post image is the conceptual draft. Pork is working on the new image. It is not yet ready, as the post just above yours mentions. I will update the first post as soon as I have the complete new image.

The map orientation reflects the arabic world view of the times. For more info and the discussion on this, please refer to the beginning of this thread. Thank you for your comments.

[mibi]

This maps is like looking into a frat house toilet after some lightweight just puked up the lucky charms he had for dinner.

[the.killing.44]

We are not ready to update the first post. We do not yet have a new, complete map to do so. We are working on it. As soon as we have a complete new map we will update the first post - promised!

It. Does. Not Matter. In all likelihood, the map you're going to get comments on is going to be the one in the first post. Update it.

[wcaclimbing]

Your first post looks like crap.
Put Pork's version up there, even if it isn't finished yet.

And whats with all the lucky charms shapes? Does each symbol means something different?

[porkenbeans]

I am working on it, and will have the next version up soon.

[porkenbeans]

I drew in the roads before I did the text, so I will need to go back and redraw them. But before I do that, I would like to hear some feedback first.

This is a complicated map and since it is very busy, I tried to make the roads and text blend in as much as possible. That is why I felt that it was necessary to, NOT use the straight lines as connectors. Then I used color on the icons to help them stand out a bit.

Click image to enlarge.

[Evil DIMwit]

The Lucky Charms icons don't bring out a very Medieval Islam feel at all. Nor does the space background, or the gradient on the sea. It's very shiny and pretty but the graphical style is about as far removed from the subject matter as possible, which is a very damaging thing when the stated point of the map is to visualize the world as 800s Muslims saw it.

[porkenbeans]

The Lucky Charms icons don't bring out a very Medieval Islam feel at all. Nor does the space background, or the gradient on the sea. It's very shiny and pretty but the graphical style is about as far removed from the subject matter as possible, which is a very damaging thing when the stated point of the map is to visualize the world as 800s Muslims saw it.

My friend you are being a bit presumptuous. We never said this map was about how the 800s Muslims saw it. Rather, this is more of a view of the planet Earth, from the outside, as an observer from space would see it at that time. It is trying to take a non biased and impartial look at the battle for God, as seen from a neutral observers perspective. Religion is a very touchy subject to deal with. So this perspective was the best way to go. As for the lucky charms, I think that they work well. Maybe you have a better idea, as to what icons would work better ?
I would certainly like to hear your ideas, you seem very interested, and Rask and I are eager to hear Constructive feedback.

[wcaclimbing]

My friend you are being a bit presumptuous. We never said this map was about how the 800s Muslims saw it.

I thought that was the whole reason you were making it upside down. To represent how they saw the world.

[porkenbeans]

My friend you are being a bit presumptuous. We never said this map was about how the 800s Muslims saw it.

I thought that was the whole reason you were making it upside down. To represent how they saw the world.

Not exactly, but we were able to use this view as a side commentary on how the world was viewed at the time. Look at it this way, if you were to travel to another planet, you would not concern yourself with north and south or up and down, as you view it from your porthole. Up and down are obsolete in space. These kind of silly notions are better left to our ancestors. So long as the compass is shown, as it is, you should not be confused as to which way is north. Besides, that fact does not even come into play in the game.
Also, We could have made this map with an old parchment look. Not only has it been done before in numerous CC maps, but it would have been cliche, and predictable. This view was chosen for the reasons that I have stated. It is an attempt to be original, and look at things from a different and unfamiliar perspective.

[Raskholnikov]

The Lucky Charms icons don't bring out a very Medieval Islam feel at all. Nor does the space background, or the gradient on the sea. It's very shiny and pretty but the graphical style is about as far removed from the subject matter as possible, which is a very damaging thing when the stated point of the map is to visualize the world as 800s Muslims saw it.

The idea was this: how do you take Idris' map of 1000 years ago and do something thoroughly modern with it, while still preserving the essential view of the world the Arabs had then?

Well, it turns out their view was unexpectedly modern: as Pork said, in the space age Up and Down really lose their traditional meaning and you can easily see a view of the Earth from space oriented exactly like the image we have, like Idris' map was oriented 1000 years ago. So our modern map makes a direct refrence to, and commentary on, that map: there is no "right" or "wrong" perpective of "up" or "down"; all perspectives are valid, and all are culturally determined. In space, all one would have to do is slightly rotate one's space craft and one would then see the Earth with Europe "on top", like we have been used to re-present it for the last 500 years. Same planet, same continents, same view - just seen from a slightly different angle. Yet what huge difference that has made, historically. I like to see this tension between science and culture reflected here and make the statement that each cultural perspective must be understood in its own terms, as equally valid but at the same time intrinsically different. It's a message we all around the world would be better off to learn...

As to the "Lucky Charms", these are cartographic symbols used to represent cities that have different functions: the Crown symbolises capitals, the Ship's steerring wheel Ports, the Star Religious sites. Other maps use symbols to denote different functions nad I find that by calling them Lucky Charms you try to point out that they are inappropriate and meaningless. I respectfully disagree.

This said, this is still a work in progress and until we will have a complete next draft both Pork and i are happy with we will not update the first post, so please be patient for a few more days, as we are working on this. And feel free to bring on any constructive criticism you might have - we will happily try to address all your questions and arguments.

[Raskholnikov]

[Raskholnikov]

Hi Pork,

First of all, let me tell you that overall, i love it! i think you're going totally in the right direction and I agree with most changes you made.

A few comments:

1. Please correct what I indicated in red and white in terms or road connections and names.
2. You gave lower case letters to the Port, Capital and Religious site part of all city codes. I think they should be capitalised.
3. The typeface for all city codes is, I think, much too big. Check the New World Map. I'd make the letters smaller, thinner, crisper, without white highlight around them. As they are, they take way too much space and kinda overpower the map itself. The codes must be as discrete as possible while still legible.
4. The roads are great - but i would make the bevel darker, so that the connections can be as clear as possible. Now they sometimes tend to get too morphed in the background.
5. Please add the map title and full legend with symbols explanations, bonus structure etc as in the map i sent you.
6. Oh and please, add Sicily in a way which makes it look like the rest of the land areas around it. Right now Palermo is floating....

Once these changes are done, I can add the Empires' flags and we can have a complete, new version of the map to put up in the first post and open to comments. i can't wait!

Again, thank you for all your persevernce, hard work and great ideas and creative input!

R

[natty dread]

Not only has it been done before in numerous CC maps, but it would have been cliche, and predictable.Not only has it been done before in numerous CC maps, but it would have been cliche, and predictable.

It's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't think a map should try to be different just for the sake of being different... whatever works best for the map, should be used, regardless if it has or hasn't been used before.

[porkenbeans]

Not only has it been done before in numerous CC maps, but it would have been cliche, and predictable.Not only has it been done before in numerous CC maps, but it would have been cliche, and predictable.

It's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't think a map should try to be different just for the sake of being different... whatever works best for the map, should be used, regardless if it has or hasn't been used before.

I am not here to churn out the same ole same ole. I want to create my own style. What is wrong with that ?

[natty dread]

Not only has it been done before in numerous CC maps, but it would have been cliche, and predictable.Not only has it been done before in numerous CC maps, but it would have been cliche, and predictable.

It's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't think a map should try to be different just for the sake of being different... whatever works best for the map, should be used, regardless if it has or hasn't been used before.

I am not here to churn out the same ole same ole. I want to create my own style. What is wrong with that ?

Nothing, if that particular style is the best for your map.

In the end, public opinion is what counts. I've developed a map for 23 versions which will probably never see it's way out of the foundry, because the foundry staff is of the opinion that I lack support, which is supposedly because the map is too unorthodox.

I'd hate to see your map suffer the same fate.

[Raskholnikov]

Yes, i feel for you re your proteine map. I think the problem is it lacks a "Story": what is the "purpose" of the fight? to build a proteine? to destroy one? something else? to show which proteine is more powerful?

I think for players to feel some kind of satisfaction at the end of a game and be willing to invest 20 minutes or time in a game or whatever it takes, something "cool" must happen at the end. Like the (in)famous Titanic line "I'm the King of the World!". I know it sounds stupid, but most people play these games because they get a "kick" out ouf it, or love the maps or a mix of both.

So if you can build some kind of "Cool" story around the map that fires peoples imagination and makes it worth spending time on and playing, I think it would really help. Which is really the problem with a lot of the "pure science" maps: how do you get a kick out of amino-acid couplings?


For this map, I think the story is clear and the map intriguing and different. It moves away from the idea of territories and boundaries because at the time, the control of ddynasties were centered around cities... the more one moved away from city boundaries, the weaker the control became.. So Empires were really networks if cities in constant ebb and flow with no defined territorial boundaries as we know them today. I think this map really illustrates this well.

Also, by having 4 types of cities - capitals, ports , religious sites and normal cities, as well as battle sites, all 4 networks of power which build any system of governance are illustrated: the political, military, commercial and religious/cultural. Each one was crucial in the spread of Islam, but also in that of Christianity. So opening a trade route by conquering a port will bring benefits and connections to other empires, but also the threat of being invaded. One must choose. Same thing with battles: you can build up your forces by conquering only the cities in your own empire and then wait to be attacked and let others waste troups on battle site and port neutrals and then counter-attack; or be aggressive and take the initiative. Also, some empires have more cities but no religious sites; others have religious sites but fewer cities: how does this affect players' strategies?

And though it all, the players has a god-like view from space on the ebb and flow of these empires that rise and fall and grow and disappear. I think the mix of history and gameplay really could work and I hope to at least get this to Beta to see what people think when they actually get to play it. That is the true test of any proposed map and the goal should be to get every map in good enough shape to get to Beta and have achance to be truly tested out by the only test that matters: will people actually enjoy playing it and start games with it?. That is the real verdict of the quality of any CC map.

[natty dread]

Yes, i feel for you re your proteine map. I think the problem is it lacks a "Story": what is the "purpose" of the fight? to build a proteine? to destroy one? something else? to show which proteine is more powerful?

I think for players to feel some kind of satisfaction at the end of a game and be willing to invest 20 minutes or time in a game or whatever it takes, something "cool" must happen at the end. Like the (in)famous Titanic line "I'm the King of the World!". I know it sounds stupid, but most people play these games because they get a "kick" out ouf it, or love the maps or a mix of both.

And yet, there are maps like Crossword, Chinese checkers, or Poker club. How did they ever get quenched?

[Raskholnikov]

True. I don't have an answer to that, as I am no fan of any of them.......

[Evil DIMwit]

My friend you are being a bit presumptuous. We never said this map was about how the 800s Muslims saw it.

Raskh stated at the start of the thread that he wanted to "re-create an eighth-century Arabic map." Either he's changed his aims or this is a rather different meaning of the term 're-create' than I've understood.

..So our modern map makes a direct refrence to, and commentary on, that map: there is no "right" or "wrong" perpective of "up" or "down"; all perspectives are valid, and all are culturally determined...

Didn't have to go to such a great length explaining that, I completely dig what you're trying to say. Here's a picture of my bedroom wall:

Snazzy, eh?

As to the "Lucky Charms", these are cartographic symbols used to represent cities that have different functions: the Crown symbolises capitals, the Ship's steerring wheel Ports, the Star Religious sites. Other maps use symbols to denote different functions nad I find that by calling them Lucky Charms you try to point out that they are inappropriate and meaningless. I respectfully disagree.

Well, I don't know about mibi, but Lucky Charms seems to be the working name for this style now. To me it means more that they're colorful basic shapes, not a comment on their meaningfulness or appropriateness. They certainly seem to mean things for the most part (although what they actually mean is a bit uncertain and of course must be included on the final map fairly explicitly). Are they appropriate? Somewhat. The crown and steering wheel fit fairly well for capitals and ports. The stars could certainly work for religious sites, though they're not the first thing that leap to mind when I think 'religion.' The explosions are weaker -- gunpowder weapons wouldn't be a gleam in China's eye for at least half a century, and wouldn't make their way that far west for half a millennium. Plus I just don't find the explosion icon to be visually appealing. The marbles, though, are the worst. They don't project the idea of a city, they don't evoke anything in the historical period, and worst of all, they don't fit in with the other icons.

I do like the roads. The roads and the font both work well.

I suppose if you're challenging any of my notions, it's the one that a map's graphical style should have something to do with its subject matter, which I'm not against in general, but for a map this focused on a particular historical time and scene, you two are going to have to put together something a bit more impressive than this to convince me.