I'm not understanding the Bible at this point

[BigBallinStalin]

I usually rely on these materials to help understand the Bible:

Holy Hand Greande

[Ray Rider]

And it came to pass when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the lord said "my spirit shall not that always strive with man for that he also is flesh. Yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

Who is God talking to if not fallen angels? This sounds like God is saying "go ahead and do as you please on Earth, but you are warned that in 120 years I am going to destroy mankind."

I agree, I'm thinking this is also supporting the need to take them out. It says Man is also flesh but he only lives around 120 years during this era. The angels were built better and would way out live that. I don't think there's an expiry on them, so it's possible they were not going away hence having to kill them. One of the real cool things about the bible to me is the things that may have simple explinations yet can't be explained. I think the purpose in that is to force us to choose a side. Like Robert L. Ripley would say, believe it or not.

It may be an interesting topic for discussion, but at the end of the day, it's just speculation. As Player said:

...its not central to the theology, the faith and eventually, the real truth will be known. For now, since it is not central, while it should not be completely ignored, it can remain a "puzzle".

[2dimes]

The bible's just speculation? Oh, I have not been following all the conversations here, sorry.

[jesterhawk]

It's gonna get all quotey now.
From my travels I have learned that it was a common expression in Jesus's own time to refer to yourself as "son of God" because we are all God's children. This being an expression is also mentioned specifically in the Dead Sea Scrolls. So this sounds plausible, though in a Biblical sense this would pre-date Jesus a bit... But if we are talking rationally here, why were the giants mentioned? And does that mean that "mighty men which were of old, men of renown" is simply saying that these guys were honest and trustworthy? That they followed the word of God to the letter? And why does the author feel the need to say that the mixing of "God's Children" and non-Judea o/Christian peoples produce mighty men? Is this just a way to tell people it is "ok" to find love anywhere?
And I am hearing from a lot of people that this is a reference to fallen angels. They would have all died during the Great Flood. Seems like there is a lot of disagreeing here.

To begin with you are correct in that there is a lot of disagreement here on the text. I think the main reason that there is disagreement is that most people do not want to accept that a fallen angel, or a demon, was at any time allowed to mate with humanity.

In short, the word that is translated Nephilim (or giants or sons of God) is the Hebrew word "nĕphiyl" which has it's root from the Hebrew word "naphal" which basically means "To Fall" or "Fallen". So, the word "nĕphiyl" really could be translated as "Fallen Ones" (or fallen giants, or fallen gods, notice little "g"). This is why many people believe that these were the fallen angels that were kicked out of heaven with the devil. Now, is that the exact case? I believe that a strong case could be made for that. However, it is also possible that it is referring to a people who had been defeated, "The Fallen Germans" (after WWII) for example. A case could be made for that although, personally, I think a weaker case.

Now, if we take this to the extreme, if any heavenly/divine/angelic like being was to mate with humanity the resulting offspring would have the characteristics of both humanity and that being. So, if a fallen angel (who is by itself a spiritual being which brings up a whole other interesting discussion) was to mate with a woman, the resulting offspring would have at least some of the traits of humanity and the fallen angel. Now, some angels are large and some have wings and some, if we literally translate the words used, are fire beings (although how would they mate with humans I don't know). That would then extend that the offspring would be men/women who were large or had wings or something like that. Kind of like the myth of Hercules whom was supposed to be the son of Zeus and a woman (can't remember the name) and he had traits of both humanity and deity.

As for being renown, if the above is true, it would stand to reason that these offspring would come to be known as they would have "extra" (kind of like super) powers. And it would also stand to reason that they would be held in high regard because of their "extra" feats of power. This does not necessarily mean they were good or bad just beyond the normal of everyone else.

Now, why mention them? Good question and one that I believe is to illuminate just how rampantly bad everything had become. I mean sin was so bad that it says that unlike any other time in history the smell or aroma from the sin had gotten to God. And that this caused God to want to move. If in fact, fallen angels were mating with humanity the likelihood would be that they would cause more harm than good (given their ancestry, but obviously not known for sure) and that would add to the depravity of the situation in which God decided to take action. And the mentioning of it is just to inform us that they were part of the reason that God had to flood the world.

I think another good question from all of this is when did God put the stop to it? The Nephilim are mentioned in Genesis 6 which is obviously pre-flood. And again in Numbers 13, which is post flood, but also they are mentioned from the 10 spies that are trying to discourage the Israelites from going to the promised land because they were afraid. It is entirely possible that there were no "real" Nephilim in that area or after the flood. Kind of like parents who tell kids about the boogieman to keep them from wandering out of bed at night. I realize this is at best a suggestion or observation that is not rooted in any hard facts.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

Love in Christ,
JH

[jesterhawk]

See and I would sugest that from my point of view, actual fallen angels cross breeding with people gives a reason for the flood rather than just some how direct people back to following God. If everyone but Noah's wife and kids had been a cross breed. One way to get rid of them all would be the flood.

Very interesting thought that I would agree is very possible.

JH

[PLAYER57832]

But the real truth is the veracity of the Bible is not to be found in secular scholarship. It is a matter of faith.

If the veracity of the Bible is not there and it is only a matter of faith, what parts are right? What parts can we ignore and what parts do we adhere to?
The Bible cannot have errors in doctrine and contradict itself. Once it does or you allow yourself to say it is not all true, then you have opened the door to allow all of it to be ignored.
I for one do not have blind faith that the parts of the Bible are true, I have faith that it is all inspired and given to us by God.

2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)

• All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Some excerpts from the link below regarding the Bible as it relates to other historical documents.
...we would see that the Bible is in a class by itself regarding the number of ancient copies and their reliability.
...So far, however, there isn't a single archaeological discovery that disproves the Bible in any way.
http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/ ... l-document

WM

I have taken this up before.

Of course I see many proofs of the Bible, and have said so, continue to say so over and over. However, as a scientist, I also recognize that much of what I consider proof does not meet the secular standard of proof. That is the distinction. I can see it, you can see it, be we cannot convince someone who does not wish to believe. I can convince someone that steelhead and rainbow trout are the same fish or that deer are herbivores. I can even show proof that much of the what is in the Bible cooincides with proven history, but I cannot prove that everything in the Bible is true.

It is always partly faith.

[Ray Rider]

The bible's just speculation? Oh, I have not been following all the conversations here, sorry.

I said in the end, we can only speculate about the topic of the Nephalim because the Bible doesn't describe them in detail, nor does any secular source. We cannot definitively say what or who they were.

[jesterhawk]

The bible's just speculation? Oh, I have not been following all the conversations here, sorry.

I said in the end, we can only speculate about the topic of the Nephalim because the Bible doesn't describe them in detail, nor does any secular source. We cannot definitively say what or who they were.

Very true statement.

JH

[jonesthecurl]

...but you believe they were real 'cos it says so in the bible.

[2dimes]

The bible's just speculation? Oh, I have not been following all the conversations here, sorry.

I said in the end, we can only speculate about the topic of the Nephalim because the Bible doesn't describe them in detail, nor does any secular source. We cannot definitively say what or who they were.

So if you're agreeing with what I posted, why did it sound like you did not and wanted me to move on, end the thread, have an alter call or what ever it is you want to get to?

When I first spotted you're post I was actually excited because I have enjoyed some of your work in the past. Too bad you seem to have stumbled into the wrong thread. This one is titled, "I'm not understanding the Bible at this point" it's where we're discussing things that may never be known by mortals because the bible doesn't discribe them in detail, nor does any secular source. It was an interesting topic for discussion right before you came in.

The "Things central to the theology, the faith and eventually, the real truth." thread must be somewhere else. Could you be a sweet heart and take player with you when you go there?

[2dimes]

...but you believe they were real 'cos it says so in the bible.

Kind of for somethings. I have to hurry because Ray Rider might come back to tell us "While this may be an interesting topic for discussion, it isn't central to the theology, the faith and eventually, the real truth."

I believe you are excellent at cooking Indian inspired food. Partly because of things I've read in here that you wrote. Now I know that sounds rediculas because let's face it, I could not have possibly tasted your cooking that way. There must be something more that is causing my mouth to water as I can imagine tasting some nice saucy curried chicken poured over rice and eaten with naan. I have not even had a chance to try making naan partially since the fire has sent me into exile.

How ever I think part of it is that tonight my daughter will be going on her first big girl sleep over with Brownies at the zoo. Therefore we are going to order from our favorite pakistani take out. Now I know their butter chicken is a little more tomatoey to the point that I personally don't think of it as butter chicken, yet it is so delicious I am quite excited to be getting it tonight.

Part of it is reading and part of it is experiences that match up to what's written that help me through faith to believe that you're a real person and not just from television.

So yeah I guess it's easiest to just say, "I believe your indian inspired cooking is real 'cos it says so in the forum."

[2dimes]

I usually rely on these materials to help understand the Bible:

Holy Hand Greande

That's pretty much lifted from high churches that have been helping prevent people from understanding the bible for over a thousand years.

[jesterhawk]

...but you believe they were real 'cos it says so in the bible.

Yes. The fact we do not understand who they were does not preclude believing they existed.

JH

[Juan_Bottom]

This has got to be the most fascinating thread ever. I can't wait till I find something else. Thanks for your posts.

[2dimes]

Yeah, I like to discuss that exact verse you brought up because it's so totally open for speculations. There's possibly endless directions you could go with what may have really been going on. I think for me it has potential to be the root of a bunch of things including conspiricies like shape shifting reptilian stuff. It's really a cool topic.

I also enjoyed some of the more mundane possibilities that make sense too. "They were just the guys that were following God until they met up with the hot women that were into strange religions."

Maybe Ray Rider's right and we should be talking about how to return to a self sufficient society of farmers when the private corperations that run the utilities move to India or China resulting in the lights going out here.

[Ray Rider]

So if you're agreeing with what I posted, why did it sound like you did not and wanted me to move on, end the thread, have an alter call or what ever it is you want to get to?

When I first spotted you're post I was actually excited because I have enjoyed some of your work in the past. Too bad you seem to have stumbled into the wrong thread. This one is titled, "I'm not understanding the Bible at this point" it's where we're discussing things that may never be known by mortals because the bible doesn't discribe them in detail, nor does any secular source. It was an interesting topic for discussion right before you came in.

The "Things central to the theology, the faith and eventually, the real truth." thread must be somewhere else. Could you be a sweet heart and take player with you when you go there?

I have to hurry because Ray Rider might come back to tell us "While this may be an interesting topic for discussion, it isn't central to the theology, the faith and eventually, the real truth."

Maybe Ray Rider's right and we should be talking about how to return to a self sufficient society of farmers when the private corperations that run the utilities move to India or China resulting in the lights going out here.

[daddy1gringo]

B.K. Barunt and I had a good debate over that passage in another thread. I think you'll find it interesting: http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 1&start=15

[2dimes]

There, now let's talk about some of this ya big lug.

Angels, dinasaurs, uncircumsized Philistiens, american football team or something we've missed, who were teh giants?