A Challenge to Theists

[vtmarik]

Not answered very well.

Rational thought dictates that life did not come "from nothing"

Rational thought also dictates that the origin of life is not automatically some Supreme Being.

Move on.

[benmor78]

Why is it that the evangelical atheists are so much more irritating than evangelical Christians? Oh, yeah, it's this obnoxious sense of intellectual superiority.

[Jamie]

ok. I accept your challenge. I can't say I believe in ANY religion as taught by man. I don't however, believe you simply cease to exist when you die either. Most religions were created to quell this fear. The idea of non existence is scarier than hell to some people. My beliefs are based partially on a theology class I took a few years back, and on my own thoughts. I believe that we were designed and created by a deity, and we will experience an afterlife. The human body is too complicated, and two well designed to be a product of simple evolution. The human brain is more complex than any super computer, and I find it hard to believe it just evolved on a lifeless planet, even over billions of years. Also, humans lose a couple of grams of weight when they die. No other living thing can claim that. I believe that to be the soul exiting the body. There is too much concrete evidence of ghost to beleive there is no afterlife. I also don't believe a lifeless ball of rock no matter what its distance from its sun can just have life start to grow. It takes life to make life. Nature has proven that every lifeform has a purpose. So if a ball of rock is dead, life would serve no purpose on it. Dead things don't make life, so life had to be created to make it. The enzymes needed to create even the simplest forms of life don't, and can't exist in nature. Evolution does exist in the sense that living things evolve over time to adapt to the ever changing enviroment. Humans are smart enough to develop, and build a craft, that allows us to leave our planet. No way thats simple evolution. The existence of life to me, especially human life, virtually proves it was created. By what, I don't know, but when I talk about God, I don't talk about him in the biblical heaven and hell sense. When I pray, or talk about God, I am referring to whatever being created us, and all the life around us. I believe life is a true miracle, and we were created. For what, I can't yet imagine.

[2dimes]

Why is it that the evangelical atheists are so much more irritating than evangelical Christians? Oh, yeah, it's this obnoxious sense of intellectual superiority.

Eye of the beholder bud. The guy that painted his house pink with lime green trim thinks it's beautifull. Somewhere in the world there's more of them.

[vtmarik]

Why is it that the evangelical atheists are so much more irritating than evangelical Christians? Oh, yeah, it's this obnoxious sense of intellectual superiority.

Versus the obnoxious sense of moral entitlement?

And Jamie, humans lose a couple of grams when they die? Our bodies are like 97% water. That ain't a couple grams dude.

[benmor78]

Possibly, but the bizarre obsession atheists have with religion is puzzling. It's like the 14 yo boy obsessed with the homecoming queen.

[2dimes]

It's like the 14 yo boy obsessed with the homecoming queen.

I never grew out of that either. She's one hot number.

[benmor78]

Why is it that the evangelical atheists are so much more irritating than evangelical Christians? Oh, yeah, it's this obnoxious sense of intellectual superiority.

Versus the obnoxious sense of moral entitlement?

I don't know any religious people with an obnoxious sense of moral entitlement. I do know, however, lots of atheists with an obnoxious sense of intellectual superiority.

[vtmarik]

Possibly, but the bizarre obsession atheists have with religion is puzzling. It's like the 14 yo boy obsessed with the homecoming queen.

Atheists are no more obsessed in the idea of No God than evangelicals are with the idea of God.

As towards no Christians having moral entitlement issues, how many atheists come knocking on your door telling you that if you don't repent now that you'll be burning in Hell? How many atheist pundits say that it's ok to walk around with tableaus of murder around your neck?

Religious fervor is proof of the Barnum Effect: There's a sucker born every minute.

[2dimes]

Barnum Effect: There's a sucker born every minute.

Now if I can squeez each one for a couple bucks...

[Colaalone]

Why is it that the evangelical atheists are so much more irritating than evangelical Christians? Oh, yeah, it's this obnoxious sense of intellectual superiority.

Versus the obnoxious sense of moral entitlement?

And Jamie, humans lose a couple of grams when they die? Our bodies are like 97% water. That ain't a couple grams dude.

Jamie was referring to this:

the work of Dr. Duncan MacDougall, who in the early 1900s sought to measure the weight purportedly lost by a human body when the soul departed the body upon death. MacDougall weighed dying patients in an attempt to prove that the soul was material, tangible and thus measurable. These experiments are widely considered to have had little if any scientific merit, and although MacDougall's results varied considerably from 21 grams, for some people this figure has become synonymous with the measure of a soul's mass. [1].

[Jamie]

Why is it that the evangelical atheists are so much more irritating than evangelical Christians? Oh, yeah, it's this obnoxious sense of intellectual superiority.

Versus the obnoxious sense of moral entitlement?

And Jamie, humans lose a couple of grams when they die? Our bodies are like 97% water. That ain't a couple grams dude.

I'm not talking about decay, or the bowels emptying themselves at death. I'm saying at the EXACT moment of death, for no reason science can explain, a human being loses a couple of grams. The exact moment in this case being when brain waves cease. It has been proven time and again. When anything else dies, this effect does not happen.

[vtmarik]

Why is it that the evangelical atheists are so much more irritating than evangelical Christians? Oh, yeah, it's this obnoxious sense of intellectual superiority.

Versus the obnoxious sense of moral entitlement?

And Jamie, humans lose a couple of grams when they die? Our bodies are like 97% water. That ain't a couple grams dude.

Jamie was referring to this:

the work of Dr. Duncan MacDougall, who in the early 1900s sought to measure the weight purportedly lost by a human body when the soul departed the body upon death. MacDougall weighed dying patients in an attempt to prove that the soul was material, tangible and thus measurable. These experiments are widely considered to have had little if any scientific merit, and although MacDougall's results varied considerably from 21 grams, for some people this figure has become synonymous with the measure of a soul's mass. [1].

Ah, ok. So he's basically echoing the ramblings of a early 20th century doctor who tried to prove that there was a soul that actually had physical mass.

[Colaalone]

basically...

Although generally regarded either as meaningless or considered to have had little if any scientific merit... In the end however, his practices were considered fallible due to shakey methods.

[benmor78]

Possibly, but the bizarre obsession atheists have with religion is puzzling. It's like the 14 yo boy obsessed with the homecoming queen.

Atheists are no more obsessed in the idea of No God than evangelicals are with the idea of God.

As towards no Christians having moral entitlement issues, how many atheists come knocking on your door telling you that if you don't repent now that you'll be burning in Hell? How many atheist pundits say that it's ok to walk around with tableaus of murder around your neck?

Religious fervor is proof of the Barnum Effect: There's a sucker born every minute.

Most of my online interactions in this regard are with obnoxious atheists, and of course Richard Dawkins' extremely public fight against religion doesn't really speak strongly of his mental health.

Either way, I subscribe to the theory that there are three sides to the human self: a physical side, a mental side, and a spiritual side. One must exercise all three of these aspects to be a complete person.

[benmor78]

Why is it that the evangelical atheists are so much more irritating than evangelical Christians? Oh, yeah, it's this obnoxious sense of intellectual superiority.

Versus the obnoxious sense of moral entitlement?

And Jamie, humans lose a couple of grams when they die? Our bodies are like 97% water. That ain't a couple grams dude.

I'm not talking about decay, or the bowels emptying themselves at death. I'm saying at the EXACT moment of death, for no reason science can explain, a human being loses a couple of grams. The exact moment in this case being when brain waves cease. It has been proven time and again. When anything else dies, this effect does not happen.

I don't think it's been proven "time and time again." According to what I've read, that figure comes from one study that involved 6 participants (mostly TB patients, I believe) back in the early part of the 20th century.

[Backglass]

It has been proven time and again. When anything else dies, this effect does not happen.

Then it shouldn't be very hard for you to provide some sources now would it. If you going to spout off, you gotta back it up.

C'mon! You can do it! You do know how to do research don't you?

[Jamie]

Why is it that the evangelical atheists are so much more irritating than evangelical Christians? Oh, yeah, it's this obnoxious sense of intellectual superiority.

Versus the obnoxious sense of moral entitlement?

And Jamie, humans lose a couple of grams when they die? Our bodies are like 97% water. That ain't a couple grams dude.

Jamie was referring to this:

the work of Dr. Duncan MacDougall, who in the early 1900s sought to measure the weight purportedly lost by a human body when the soul departed the body upon death. MacDougall weighed dying patients in an attempt to prove that the soul was material, tangible and thus measurable. These experiments are widely considered to have had little if any scientific merit, and although MacDougall's results varied considerably from 21 grams, for some people this figure has become synonymous with the measure of a soul's mass. [1].

actually, that was one of the first ever experiments done in this field. With ultra modern, ultra accuarate equipment, the weight lost at death is consistently two grams. I watched a video on this while in college. It showed people dying while on a scale and hooked up to several machines. When the brain stopped functioning, and electrical activity ceased, in almost everycase, two grams came off the weight, though in a few cases it was 3, and in others it was one. Other clips showed Dogs being put down. When brain activity stopped, no weight was lost at all. No science to date can say why this occurs, so for now, it goes beyond science.

[benmor78]

Why is it that the evangelical atheists are so much more irritating than evangelical Christians? Oh, yeah, it's this obnoxious sense of intellectual superiority.

Versus the obnoxious sense of moral entitlement?

And Jamie, humans lose a couple of grams when they die? Our bodies are like 97% water. That ain't a couple grams dude.

Jamie was referring to this:

the work of Dr. Duncan MacDougall, who in the early 1900s sought to measure the weight purportedly lost by a human body when the soul departed the body upon death. MacDougall weighed dying patients in an attempt to prove that the soul was material, tangible and thus measurable. These experiments are widely considered to have had little if any scientific merit, and although MacDougall's results varied considerably from 21 grams, for some people this figure has become synonymous with the measure of a soul's mass. [1].

actually, that was one of the first ever experiments done in this field. With ultra modern, ultra accuarate equipment, the weight lost at death is consistently two grams. I watched a video on this while in college. It showed people dying while on a scale and hooked up to several machines. When the brain stopped functioning, and electrical activity ceased, in almost everycase, two grams came off the weight, though in a few cases it was 3, and in others it was one. Other clips showed Dogs being put down. When brain activity stopped, no weight was lost at all. No science to date can say why this occurs, so for now, it goes beyond science.

If you can link to the studies, that would go a long way towards backing this up. My response, really, would be that lung capacity generally is about 6 liters, and air masses 1 gram per liter, roughly. However, there is a lot of water vapor in the exhaled breath, and CO2 is higher in exhaled breath than in ambient atmosphere, so it's not inconceivable that we could just be talking about the loss of mass from the lungs flattening.

[vtmarik]

Most of my online interactions in this regard are with obnoxious atheists, and of course Richard Dawkins' extremely public fight against religion doesn't really speak strongly of his mental health.

So if someone strives to take religion out of the public sphere and make it more of a private event (which wouldn't be terrible) they're crazy?

Either way, I subscribe to the theory that there are three sides to the human self: a physical side, a mental side, and a spiritual side. One must exercise all three of these aspects to be a complete person.

There's a difference between spiritualism and religion. I know plenty of spiritual atheists who have reached that phase of their existence through philosophy and introspection. They are still atheists though.

[benmor78]

Most of my online interactions in this regard are with obnoxious atheists, and of course Richard Dawkins' extremely public fight against religion doesn't really speak strongly of his mental health.

So if someone strives to take religion out of the public sphere and make it more of a private event (which wouldn't be terrible) they're crazy?

Either way, I subscribe to the theory that there are three sides to the human self: a physical side, a mental side, and a spiritual side. One must exercise all three of these aspects to be a complete person.

There's a difference between spiritualism and religion. I know plenty of spiritual atheists who have reached that phase of their existence through philosophy and introspection. They are still atheists though.

Why should religion be taken out of the public sphere? We, as a society, accept that sexuality is part of the public sphere. Why should religion be a private, closeted issue while whether you stick your penis in a man's anus or a woman's vagina is something suitable for prime time TV?

[Backglass]

With ultra modern, ultra accuarate equipment, the weight lost at death is consistently two grams. I watched a video on this while in college. It showed people...blah...blah...blah

Hearsay. Rumor. Invention.

SOURCES PLEASE.

[vtmarik]

Why should religion be taken out of the public sphere? We, as a society, accept that sexuality is part of the public sphere. Why should religion be a private, closeted issue while whether you stick your penis in a man's anus or a woman's vagina is something suitable for prime time TV?

I don't accept any private actions taken by consenting adults to be necessarily public. Whether it be abortions, homosexuality, religion, toe clipping, or anything like that. Be free to do what you want, but don't cram it down other people's throats.

Homosexuality is in the news because governments have seen fit to legislate against private behavior. Why can't gays get married? Because certain people find it icky, and it's an election year. Why can't there be a nativity scene at City Hall? Because Christians don't stand up for their rights, all they do is whine and complain and send letters to Pat Robertson.

If you want to pray to your God, that's fine. Religious beliefs are private, and I stand by that. You don't want to hear an atheist being critical of your religion anymore than I want Jehovah's Witnesses bashing on my door at 7 in the damn morning.

The question is, why does it have to be public? What is so great about your God that forces you to come into my private bubble and gnaw my ear off about it?

The reason atheists are so public about these sorts of things is because there's this false sense of balance. All the religious people are complaining that they're being persecuted against while in reality it's all hype drummed up by radio and TV personalities to boost ratings. Christians make up the majority of the people in this country. More than half believes that the world was created by God in 6 days. Atheists make up less than 1/3 of the population.

In terms of numbers, who's persecuting who?

[Jamie]

Why is it that the evangelical atheists are so much more irritating than evangelical Christians? Oh, yeah, it's this obnoxious sense of intellectual superiority.

Versus the obnoxious sense of moral entitlement?

And Jamie, humans lose a couple of grams when they die? Our bodies are like 97% water. That ain't a couple grams dude.

Jamie was referring to this:

the work of Dr. Duncan MacDougall, who in the early 1900s sought to measure the weight purportedly lost by a human body when the soul departed the body upon death. MacDougall weighed dying patients in an attempt to prove that the soul was material, tangible and thus measurable. These experiments are widely considered to have had little if any scientific merit, and although MacDougall's results varied considerably from 21 grams, for some people this figure has become synonymous with the measure of a soul's mass. [1].

actually, that was one of the first ever experiments done in this field. With ultra modern, ultra accuarate equipment, the weight lost at death is consistently two grams. I watched a video on this while in college. It showed people dying while on a scale and hooked up to several machines. When the brain stopped functioning, and electrical activity ceased, in almost everycase, two grams came off the weight, though in a few cases it was 3, and in others it was one. Other clips showed Dogs being put down. When brain activity stopped, no weight was lost at all. No science to date can say why this occurs, so for now, it goes beyond science.

If you can link to the studies, that would go a long way towards backing this up. My response, really, would be that lung capacity generally is about 6 liters, and air masses 1 gram per liter, roughly. However, there is a lot of water vapor in the exhaled breath, and CO2 is higher in exhaled breath than in ambient atmosphere, so it's not inconceivable that we could just be talking about the loss of mass from the lungs flattening.

That was already account for in the study. As for links, I'm not going to go tooling around google to look up a video I watched in my college theology class several years ago to prove myself on a risk website, nor am I driving to Lawrence Kansas to retrieve a copy of the video. I watched the video, I took notes on the video, I saw enough evidence on the video to convince me that only humans lose weight at death. I know what I saw, and I personally don't give a crap if any of you believe me or not. If you think I am a liar, look it up yourself. I believe me, I saw the video, and that is ll that matters to me. If you don't believe me, than I feel sorry for you. It made for fascinating viewing. I apologize for having spent 12 years in college, but i am getting tired of people wanting me to post threads for everything I say. NEWSFLASH!! I didn't get this info from a website, wouldn't know where on the net to find it, though with a few minutes or more could probably figure it out, but I'm not going to tool around looking for it. You go look it up. I took the classes, took the notes, read the textbooks, library books, watched the videos, did the reports, and did my research. I already know I'm right, having invested so much time and effort into all i've learned in the 26 years of my life I've spent in a learning enviroment. If you want to know if I'm right, fine, go educate yourself. A few minutes on google will do you good.

[vtmarik]

Only humans lose two grams of weight at death.

NEWSFLASH, only humans have lungs our size! Weigh a blue whale at death, I'm certain it'll lose double that.

What does it prove? It proves that humans lose two grams at death. What a revelation! Stop the presses, when humans die they lose two grams!

This news could change the world! ZOMGWTFBBQ!