CLA Clan Rankings [Jan 14-2010]

[jpcloet]

Not everyone will be happy but this is how it works. Would love to have a leap frog in place.....however, not getting much support for that and what it entails.

[the.killing.44]

This is probably the worst the ladder has ever looked.

[waseemalim]

tis pretty random.

[jpcloet]

I will post the modified RPI-Leapfrog in the CLA tonight that I have been working on. I am going to have to take a new approach to the next ladder I think. I am going to assume people will be ok with the ladder result but not the system/requirements that come with it.

[Rocketry]

O&H are too cool to care about ladders anyway...

Rocket.

[Scott-Land]

Sweet ladder-- super job. I love it ! Only 5 or so ladders in place before the most accurate one surfaced !!

[jpcloet]

Sweet ladder-- super job. I love it ! Only 5 or so ladders in place before the most accurate one surfaced !!

The most accurate ladder surfaced in the very beginning of the CLA. Admin also recommended it, however, the clans then and now still can't agree to the system the best ladder needs. If I can't get alignment or at least a majority on that ladder to be the final one, then I go to Plan B.

[waseemalim]

jp, would you mind explaining how this works. i.e. how are you ranking us. Are you taking A level avg and then if there is a tie, you bring in B level avg as tiebreaker? that doesnt seem to be the case here.

[waseemalim]

only thing that seems plausible here is a penalty for having a B-level score/high average.

[laddida]

jp how do you find time to play games?

[ahunda]

The most accurate ladder surfaced in the very beginning of the CLA. Admin also recommended it, however, the clans then and now still can't agree to the system the best ladder needs. If I can't get alignment or at least a majority on that ladder to be the final one, then I go to Plan B.

No offense, jp: But there hasn´t been any presentation of an alternative ladder system in the recent weeks/months. Maybe it would help, if you would spell out, what you have in mind, so that people could discuss it ?

[jpcloet]

There is a poll going on right now in the CLA.

The above results have more decimals than what you see above.

I play lots of games and cover accounts as well. My map is hurting, but this math and ladder stuff if virtually automated with tables. You should see the league files....

[jpcloet]

tis pretty random.

I guarantee it is not random. There is a clearly defined system which we knew had holes in it. I've used ladders and tried to show how they work and don't work. All ladders have issues. I think this ladder again proves that there must be a better way. I'm putting forth the best ladder IMO and the ladder admin recommended in the CLA right now. There is a system behind it needed which needs to be agreed upon and that will be the difficult part. The poll so far has been a little split, but everyone there is putting in their voice.

[jpcloet]

If I were to step back, one could argue that O&H should play TOFU for the top contender spot to face the winner of TSM-THOTA. Just an opinion. I'd throw EMPIRE into the mix too. I still think this will be the year of the monkey.

[Dako]

If I were to step back, one could argue that O&H should play TOFU for the top contender spot to face the winner of TSM-THOTA. Just an opinion. I'd throw EMPIRE into the mix too. I still think this will be the year of the monkey.

I think we need not to forget about KORT - pretty strong clan as well.

[Incandenza]

If I were to step back, one could argue that O&H should play TOFU for the top contender spot to face the winner of TSM-THOTA. Just an opinion. I'd throw EMPIRE into the mix too. I still think this will be the year of the monkey.

I think we need not to forget about KORT - pretty strong clan as well.

Strong clan, certainly, but doesn't have anywhere close to the resume of TOFU or O&H (or Empire or AoD, for that matter).

[Bruceswar]

If I were to step back, one could argue that O&H should play TOFU for the top contender spot to face the winner of TSM-THOTA. Just an opinion. I'd throw EMPIRE into the mix too. I still think this will be the year of the monkey.

I think we need not to forget about KORT - pretty strong clan as well.

KORT does not factor in yet. We need more wins and challenges under our belt first.

[jpcloet]

KORT based on the league, not based on challenges so far. They will get there......soon enough

[jpcloet]

Maybe the winner of the league would be considered for #1 contender, unless that is the Monkeys flinging poo at the Monkeys. Someone should make a sig of that.

[reptile]

empire? they are good, but we just beat them and we are not even mentioned. we are too busy getting our tails whooped by outlaws and highwaymen at the moment.

[Dako]

I believe they are near. Was following their recent league games - they were doing pretty good there.

So yeah, maybe right now they are not as strong and stable as clan giants (such as Empire), but TOFU isn't as well among the ranks of top-4. At least not on equal ground.

But if we are talking about near future and potential - KORT are top-notch for sure.

[Scott-Land]

I believe they are near. Was following their recent league games - they were doing pretty good there.

So yeah, maybe right now they are not as strong and stable as clan giants (such as Empire), but TOFU isn't as well among the ranks of top-4. At least not on equal ground.

But if we are talking about near future and potential - KORT are top-notch for sure.

How is Empire a clan GIANT ? They got like 6 or 7 clan defeats expunged from their record... they are not the 7-1 or whatever it is that's currently stated-- 50/50 clan at best.

[Georgerx7di]

I will post the modified RPI-Leapfrog in the CLA tonight that I have been working on. I am going to have to take a new approach to the next ladder I think. I am going to assume people will be ok with the ladder result but not the system/requirements that come with it.

JP, can you explain the words you use please.

1. What is a RPI-leapfrog.
2. What system/requirements.
3. What is decay factor (specifically). Is it (1/time since challenge ended, or is there a grace period when challenges value does not decay. What is the range? What units is the time measured in.



Also:
4. Who works on this, just you? There are other people who can and are willing to help. There are a lot of us who can do math, I personally would love to help


As for the person who commented on my vote, I don't think you understand. We all have an idea on who the best clans are and who the worst clans are. If we voted and came up with a rough orders, then different equations could be tried to see what yields the rankings that are close to what we think they should be.

For example, most people agree that thota should be #1 right now, not much argument there. So we should look for ranking systems that give us that result. Most people agree that monki's should be second, (I think, maybe I'm biased). So if we come up with a scoreboard all the way down, then that could be used to test several different equations to see which one seems to rank clans in a fair way.



p.s. Seeing that tofu is in first I think one of the problems with whatever JP is using is that the decay factor is too strong. Tofu just completed two challenges and won both. If decay factor is too important in the equation then the clan that is hot for a month or two and plays a lot of games will get to first easily. I think decay factor should not come into play at all for at least a year after a clan war is completed. Maybe longer.

[ahunda]

No, it´s not the decay factor, that is the problem here. The main problems are:

a) using the average win %.

A clan, that has won 2 of 2 challenges against so-called A clans, can be ranked higher than a clan, that has won 6 of 6 challenges against A clans.

b) not factoring in the strength of opposition faced.

In the current system a 30-30 against THOTA or TSM is counting exactly the same as a 30-30 against Mythology or L4D. No offense to the latter two, but the problem should be obvious.

The result is, that any new-comer clan, that is strong enough to pull off 2 high victories over weak & low-ranked A clans, will shoot directly to the very top of the ladder.

And the system is obviously open to a lot of abuse: Playing against weak opposition is encouraged, whilst playing strong clans will likely hurt your ranking.

If you are interested in the ladder discussions, you could ask in your clan, if you could represent them in CLA, where those questions are discussed.

[jpcloet]

I said I wouldn't answer or explain but I shall one last time, I'm getting tired of using a ladder we know is broken when clans can't come to an agreement on a Proper Leap-Frog system. All the ladders have been compromises to certain extents. I'm locking this down for now and moving it to the archives. I don't plan on maintaining this one any longer. I'm also going to add a new poll in the CLA and try to cure some other process issues. I think by now I've proved my point on ladders. Time to move on.

RPI is like the BCS, it is the current ladder. I added -Leap Frog as the ladder in CLA is a manually modified starting point for the next full Leap-Frog ladder. A Hybrid of sorts.
The system/requirements are the conditions of what challenges qualify for the ladder.
Decay is explained in the CLA better, the factors should be around here somewhere
The decay rates are ok, the challenge is the level of margin TOFU won by. The counter-arguments all lead to leap-frog arguments yet people can't agree on the system required.

I tend to work on ladders and sytsems and CLA people vote and discuss. I've done a few ladders now I didnt' want to do, only to move thoughts and provoke the conversations. I listen to the majority and try to do what is best. Not everyone likes it, and some recent pms were not necessary, especially the negative-no real suggestion ones.

Ahunda's comments above are valid and a weakness in the current ladder. We all knew this.....yet it offends most of us now rather than at the time.