Equality

[thegreekdog]

Busy at work. Saw this thread, read the OP, didn't read anything else.

We're all born unequal and we die unequal (except for the dying part).

Inequalities have nothing to do with race anymore, at least not in the US. It's all about money.

[PLAYER57832]

If you have the time, take a peek at the past 2 pages.

[thegreekdog]

If you have the time, take a peek at the past 2 pages.

Sorry... read Woodruff's comments. I'm with him on this one. I think BBS and Snorri (and Jay) are trying to politicize this. It's not a political thing. There are examples of people going from rags to riches. There are people that post on CC that are good examples, I'm sure. I don't know why so many people disagree with Woodruff, it's kind of depressing.

[Snorri1234]

There are examples of people going from rags to riches.

Please provide examples.

There are people that post on CC that are good examples, I'm sure. I don't know why so many people disagree with Woodruff, it's kind of depressing.

We disagree because his point is sorta silly.

[thegreekdog]

From economicmobility.org:

- Two-thirds of Americans have higher income than their parents. The current generation of adults is better off than the previous one because of real income growth.

- Children born into the bottom income quintile are more likely to suprass their parents' income than children from any other income group. Eighty-two percent of children born into the bottom quintiely have greater family income than their parents, compared to 43 percent of children born into the top quintile.

http://www.economicmobility.org/reports ... y_findings

I don't have time to read all this.

Here are some "popular" examples:

Sheldon Adelson (Boston cab driver turned billionaire)
Li Ka-shing (factory worker turned billionaire)
Roman Abramovich (orphan turned billionaire)
Kirk Kerkorian (boxer turned billionaire)
Francois Pinault (high school dropout turned billionaire)
Steve Jobs (adopted by working class family, college dropout, turned billionaire)
Ralph Lauren (son of Russin immigrants, worked in department stores, college dropout, turned billionaire)
James Cayne (college dropout, card player, turned billionaire)
Richard Desmond (quit school at age 14, became drummer, turned billionaire)
JK Rowling (single mom, lived on welfare, turned billionaire)

[Snorri1234]

From economicmobility.org:

- Two-thirds of Americans have higher income than their parents. The current generation of adults is better off than the previous one because of real income growth.

- Children born into the bottom income quintile are more likely to suprass their parents' income than children from any other income group. Eighty-two percent of children born into the bottom quintiely have greater family income than their parents, compared to 43 percent of children born into the top quintile.

http://www.economicmobility.org/reports ... y_findings

I don't have time to read all this.

Here are some "popular" examples:

Sheldon Adelson (Boston cab driver turned billionaire)
Li Ka-shing (factory worker turned billionaire)
Roman Abramovich (orphan turned billionaire)
Kirk Kerkorian (boxer turned billionaire)
Francois Pinault (high school dropout turned billionaire)
Steve Jobs (adopted by working class family, college dropout, turned billionaire)
Ralph Lauren (son of Russin immigrants, worked in department stores, college dropout, turned billionaire)
James Cayne (college dropout, card player, turned billionaire)
Richard Desmond (quit school at age 14, became drummer, turned billionaire)
JK Rowling (single mom, lived on welfare, turned billionaire)

sorry, meant to say "examples of people going from rags to riches despite their environment and circumstances being against them".

For example, I know that JK Rowling lived on welfare for a whopping 2 years. By choice because she wanted to raise her child and write a book. She was a teacher and could've easily remained such and raise her daughter, she just figured that spending fulltime at writing her books/raising her kid was a better use of her time and the british gov doesn't really frown upon that.

Likewise, Steve Jobs isn't exactly an example of "rags to riches" as he is an example of "middle class to riches". It's not like he went to shitty schools, quite the opposite in fact. And he dropped out for the same reason that Bill Gates did, that is "hey this is quite boring imma go work on computers".


I'm not saying they weren't driven and ambitious, I'm saying their lives weren't the sick shit that a lot of poor people face.


(As an aside/on-topic remark, those economicmobility.org quotes don't really say much about economic mobility within society as a whole. Being richer than your parents doesn't matter much because it mostly shows that society as a whole became richer. My father earns more than my grandfather, they were/are both doctors though so it's not like things really changed except that our society became richer overall.)

[Titanic]

Here are some "popular" examples:

Sheldon Adelson (Boston cab driver turned billionaire)
Li Ka-shing (factory worker turned billionaire)
Roman Abramovich (orphan turned billionaire)
Kirk Kerkorian (boxer turned billionaire)
Francois Pinault (high school dropout turned billionaire)
Steve Jobs (adopted by working class family, college dropout, turned billionaire)
Ralph Lauren (son of Russin immigrants, worked in department stores, college dropout, turned billionaire)
James Cayne (college dropout, card player, turned billionaire)
Richard Desmond (quit school at age 14, became drummer, turned billionaire)
JK Rowling (single mom, lived on welfare, turned billionaire)

Abramovich became a billionaire because of bad industry law in Russia and because of the demise of the USSR. Very exceptional circumstances for him.

JK Rowling was because of a extraordinary talent in writing and a lucky break.

Btw, I know you were asked for examples but 10 people going from poor to super rich really does not prove anything. Looking at the tens of millions in that class and their complete lack of social mobility compared.

[PLAYER57832]

If you have the time, take a peek at the past 2 pages.

Sorry... read Woodruff's comments. I'm with him on this one. I think BBS and Snorri (and Jay) are trying to politicize this. It's not a political thing. There are examples of people going from rags to riches. There are people that post on CC that are good examples, I'm sure. I don't know why so many people disagree with Woodruff, it's kind of depressing.

No need to apologize. I didn't suggest you read it because I thought you would agree, but because I was interested in your thoughts.

But in truth I am not really in complete disagreement. I just think he's looking too late in the game.

Attitude DOES matter a lot. But how is that attitude shaped?

Also, attitude is about choices. Like I did point out, having the single-mindedness of some great people has meant they had terrible personal lives. When you do well, but wind up failing your children, is it really worth it? Some of the problem is that society judges only certain types of choices as "good", but those are not necessarily the choices that will really and truly benefit society in the long run.

Donald Trump is absolutely a success, but I don't want to see my kids grow up to be him. Ghandi, on the other hand...

JK Rowling (single mom, lived on welfare, turned billionaire)

JK Rowling? I thought we were talking Americans. (lol_

[thegreekdog]

Titanic, Snorri, you guys are very depressing.

I can't give a million or even a thousand examples because I don't have the time and I don't have the resources.

However, if I can change this around a little bit, if one is born poor, what's the point? I guess that person should just give up? I could go the route of calling you stereotypical liberals, because the shoe fits here.

[Snorri1234]

Titanic, Snorri, you guys are very depressing.

I can't give a million or even a thousand examples because I don't have the time and I don't have the resources.

However, if I can change this around a little bit, if one is born poor, what's the point? I guess that person should just give up? I could go the route of calling you stereotypical liberals, because the shoe fits here.

You're not totally understanding our position. We're more reacting to others than really saying what we think is true.

Let's take environment and circumstances as the two biggest deciding factors in a person's predictable income. Now, I think we should seperate economic factors from social ones. (i.e. welfare and public schooling vs loving parents and teachers who are supportive) The two are of course linked in no small degree, but that isn't really important now.


Now, you're probably aren't going to like this but for me the issue comes down mostly on what government involvement should do. In everything. Better schooling, reducing crime, more help for single mothers and all that. I have friends who grew up in a really poor (dutch standards obviously) environment who went to the same school as me because the government paid for them. And the gov funded their families enough so they didn't have to worry really about what their parent(s) had to do to keep afloat. In studying it's no different. Anyone who can go to college (about 10-20% of highschool grads) qualifies for a loan that is enough to pay for their tuition and rent to some degree.

Obviously this doesn't mean the differences between "classes" are gone, but at least it provides enough room for the smart and ambitious poor kids to have a far bigger shot at a better life. I know my roommate would've never gotten into lawschool if not for the government-subsidies, he did enough in highschool to just pass but is now one of the topstudents in his first year.

[Titanic]

Titanic, Snorri, you guys are very depressing.

I can't give a million or even a thousand examples because I don't have the time and I don't have the resources.

However, if I can change this around a little bit, if one is born poor, what's the point? I guess that person should just give up? I could go the route of calling you stereotypical liberals, because the shoe fits here.

I'm not saying that. I think there needs to be institutional change to help social mobility. USA, with the "American Dream", now has worse social mobility then Western Europe and the lack of regulation, poor investment in infrastructure and education, tax cuts for the rich and promoting a pure capitalist system have all paid there part towards this.

I believe motivation and hard work is key to succeeding no matter what your job or your background. However the family you have been born into has a huge impact and even if you're work your arse off every day it does not guarantee anything because there is a stall to social mobility in the USA.

If you want a way to help break this vicious cycle, education. Billions should be poured in every single year because education is the single greatest factor in breaking out of poverty. Invest in education (as well as doing a heck of a lot of other stuff to improve social mobility) and there will be very real improvements. Btw, stereotypical liberals? If you want to bring ideology into this maybe look at past history and realise that on average relative poverty expands under conservative governments and improves under liberal governments. Maybe that proves these "stereotypical liberals" actually know how to help the poor move into the middle class and reduce their burden on society.

[PLAYER57832]

In a related topic, has anyone seen that new show "undercover Boss"

here is a link describing it, if you haven't heard of it:
http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Article/MS ... 94900-RD-4

[PLAYER57832]

Titanic, Snorri, you guys are very depressing.

I can't give a million or even a thousand examples because I don't have the time and I don't have the resources.

However, if I can change this around a little bit, if one is born poor, what's the point? I guess that person should just give up? I could go the route of calling you stereotypical liberals, because the shoe fits here.

Its not that poor people cannot succeed, they can. And, certainly, they MUST have the attitude. But each person can only withstand so many problems. Poor folks already have a good many strikes. They need to have more of other things --- part drive, part an ability to relate to people the right way, and a large part "breaks" of various kinds.

The reason its important to understand is you cannot find solutions unless you look at where the problem really is. When you say "hard work will get you...", and someone doesn't get..... then its too easy to say "you didn't get...." because you were just lazy. And you will focus on "pushing" people to work harder. If you accept that just surviving while poor takes a lot of work and winds up being depressing, that the biggest problem is not having any way to really see a "way out", then the focus shifts to giving people "vision".. be it through offering better education or dealing with other issues.

There absolutely are plenty of plain lazy folks out there. But, most people who are poor at least start out with dreams, working hard, trying to make the "right" choices.

[thegreekdog]

More and more often, I find myself the only person arguing on one side. Scary.

Snorri - I agree that environment and circumstances are the two biggest deciding factors in a person's eventual income, but I also think natural intelligence is a third factor. "Working hard" and "stick-to-it-iveness" are products of the person's social environment, most likely. However, I think your next paragraph is where we part ways, and maybe it's a United States vs. Europe thing. First off, our government does provide subsidies for children to go to private schools (we call it "vouchers," which has become a curse word in most places). Second off, I think you're discounting the social aspect, specifically the familial aspect, of success, and I think this is the major cause of any lack of social mobility in the U.S. Will a rich kid with bad parents have a nice income? Yeah, probably. Will a poor kid with bad parents have a nice income? Probably not, unless he or she supercedes those social environment issues. So, from my perspective, the lack of success of people has less to do with what the government can do for them and more to do with what values, priorities, and interests their parents and environment instills in them. I've pointed to the example of the Philadelphia public school program that I'm involved in; and it's telling that these kids all go to fairly crappy public schools in Philadelphia, but they have drive to succeed which, based on my limited experience, comes from parents. Also, because they are African American, they get scholarships that help them further, which are not related necessarily to economic need, but to academic performance and skin color.

Titanic - If you read the link I posted, there is not worse social mobility. There is more social mobility. There is worse economic inequality in the US. I agree that the family you are born into has an effect, certainly, but again I look at it from a social aspect more than an economic one. Regarding education being the fix-all, I agree to an extent. However, "pouring billions" into schools does not help a child whose parents don't value education. The US Department of Education and state public schools spend an inordinate amount of money on educating students, yet many of those students don't succeed. I don't believe that spending more money on education will help those children succeed. Finally, regarding the "liberal" thing, I think you only need to look at the poverty levels in American cities run by Democratic mayors and city councils to understand how "liberals" hurt the poor. Just look at Philadelphia, Newark, Jersey City, Camden, Detroit... any of those cities. It's not pretty.

Player - I agree there are other things, like luck/breaks, that have to fall a person's way. And I'm not trying to say that poor people have an equal footing, when they are born, to rich people. That's simply foolish. I'm not saying that poor people are lazy. That's also foolish. What I am saying is that there are problems, but that they are more social than economic. If a parent wants to send their child to private school, but don't have the money, there are ways to send the child to private school. If a parent wants to send their child to college, and the child has the grades and the SAT scores (because the child works hard in school), the child can go to college. There are no impediments to these things except if the parent does not value education so the child doesn't value education.