Electoral Reform

[thegreekdog]

NOTE: thread of the year.

I've enjoyed it so far. It's pretty much got a bit of everything.

It's for the Greekie awards. I know it's still April, but Saxi is going for the clean sweep.

[Baron Von PWN]

Looks like Labour are proposing some actual changes to the way that the British government operates. Most are just Lib Dem policies repackaged, but what do you think?

1) A possible change in voting methods from first past the post to alternative vote. If you're not sure what that means- first past the post just asks that you get more votes than anyone else. Alternative vote asks that you put candidates in order of preference. When one is removed from the running, votes count for the next preferred candidate until someone has more than 50%.

2) At long last, the removal of all hereditary peers from the House of Lords.

3) The ability for voters to remove MPs from office outside of standard elections.

4) The ability for voters to petition the House to start debates on certain topics (I think this is a good thing, but in practice I guess it'll be business as usual)

5) A ban on MPs working for lobbying organisations. This one made sense when I first looked at it, but might have some issues when it comes to what constitutes a lobby. Either way- MPs shouldn't be paid for work done for any kind of lobby.

Any thoughts, or ideas on ideas that haven't been mentioned.

These all seem like good ideas to me, I especialy like the first option.

[danansan]

Of course, the one big electoral reform we should do before any other is get rid of the queen and become a real democracy.

[tzor]

Of course, the one big electoral reform we should do before any other is get rid of the queen and become a real democracy.

Why?

oh and also

Why?

[Woodruff]

Of course, the one big electoral reform we should do before any other is get rid of the queen and become a real democracy.

The queen really doesn't affect your democracy though, does she? (I ask this in pretty thorough ignorance of the reality.)

[khazalid]

not in the least, no.

[Symmetry]

Weirdly she might have some power if there's a hung parliament:

Times Article Here

It's pretty unlikely that she'll do anything though.

[saxitoxin]

The inbred manatee ERII is a prop that gets rolled out of her stable every few months for a quick ride but still suckles off the teat of the British farmers and workers much to their unending delight. Here's a picture:

[khazalid]

i'm totally sending that to the only ardent royalist i know

seriously though, i don't know why her theoretical power is even debated in the press.

[Symmetry]

i'm totally sending that to the only ardent royalist i know

seriously though, i don't know why her theoretical power is even debated in the press.

I think it's just for curiosity value. It's a weird insight into a closed off world of courtiers, civil servants, and bizarre protocols. People doing things in a certain way because it's always been done that way.

[Woodruff]

i'm totally sending that to the only ardent royalist i know

seriously though, i don't know why her theoretical power is even debated in the press.

I think it's just for curiosity value. It's a weird insight into a closed off world of courtiers, civil servants, and bizarre protocols. People doing things in a certain way because it's always been done that way.

Sounds like the military. <grin>

[saxitoxin]

The Tories have just announced their election manifesto in which they propose more American-style reforms on top of the other various American-style reforms the UK is already implementing (see: UK Supreme Court, etc.). These include:

(1) the ability of citizens to recall sitting MPs - at present, electoral recall exists only in parts of the U.S. and Canada

(2) direct election of chiefs of police - at present, direct election of police authorities exists only in parts of the western U.S.

(3) referendums on local tax increases - at present, popular veto by referendum exists only in parts of the U.S. and Switzerland

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/poli ... 616777.stm

[Symmetry]

The Tories have just announced their election manifesto in which they propose more American-style reforms on top of the other various American-style reforms the UK is already implementing (see: UK Supreme Court, etc.). These include:

(1) the ability of citizens [to] recall sitting MPs

(2) direct election of chiefs of police

(3) referendums on local tax increases

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/poli ... 616777.stm

Awesome on that. Didn't see number 3 in the link, but I'm glad that we're falling in with the US on recalling MPs.

[saxitoxin]

The Tories have just announced their election manifesto in which they propose more American-style reforms on top of the other various American-style reforms the UK is already implementing (see: UK Supreme Court, etc.). These include:

(1) the ability of citizens [to] recall sitting MPs

(2) direct election of chiefs of police

(3) referendums on local tax increases

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/poli ... 616777.stm

Awesome on that. Didn't see number 3 in the link, but I'm glad that we're falling in with the US on recalling MPs.

does that mean you're voting Conservative?

[Symmetry]

The Tories have just announced their election manifesto in which they propose more American-style reforms on top of the other various American-style reforms the UK is already implementing (see: UK Supreme Court, etc.). These include:

(1) the ability of citizens [to] recall sitting MPs

(2) direct election of chiefs of police

(3) referendums on local tax increases

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/poli ... 616777.stm

Awesome on that. Didn't see number 3 in the link, but I'm glad that we're falling in with the US on recalling MPs.

does that mean you're voting Conservative?

Unlikely- I'll likely go with the Lib Dems, but I'm pretty happy that the other parties are starting to put electoral reform on their agendas.

[saxitoxin]

The Tories have just announced their election manifesto in which they propose more American-style reforms on top of the other various American-style reforms the UK is already implementing (see: UK Supreme Court, etc.). These include:

(1) the ability of citizens [to] recall sitting MPs

(2) direct election of chiefs of police

(3) referendums on local tax increases

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/poli ... 616777.stm

Awesome on that. Didn't see number 3 in the link, but I'm glad that we're falling in with the US on recalling MPs.

does that mean you're voting Conservative?

Unlikely- I'll likely go with the Lib Dems, but I'm pretty happy that the other parties are starting to put electoral reform on their agendas.

So you like the idea of change, just not the reality?

Kind of like those who clamor for war but won't join the military?

[Symmetry]

The Tories have just announced their election manifesto in which they propose more American-style reforms on top of the other various American-style reforms the UK is already implementing (see: UK Supreme Court, etc.). These include:

(1) the ability of citizens [to] recall sitting MPs

(2) direct election of chiefs of police

(3) referendums on local tax increases

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/poli ... 616777.stm

Awesome on that. Didn't see number 3 in the link, but I'm glad that we're falling in with the US on recalling MPs.

does that mean you're voting Conservative?

Unlikely- I'll likely go with the Lib Dems, but I'm pretty happy that the other parties are starting to put electoral reform on their agendas.

So you like the idea of change, just not the reality?

Kind of like those who clamor for war but won't join the military?

Nah- they'd be conservatives. the working class being those that oppose but have to join. I'd be a stretcher-bearer. No love of war, but a sense of duty.

Love of change, but not the reality? I don't know, what's the reality?

[saxitoxin]

Nah- they'd be conservatives. the working class being those that oppose but have to join. I'd be a stretcher-bearer. No love of war, but a sense of duty.

Love of change, but not the reality? I don't know, what's the reality?

/yawn/

[Symmetry]

Nah- they'd be conservatives. the working class being those that oppose but have to join. I'd be a stretcher-bearer. No love of war, but a sense of duty.

Love of change, but not the reality? I don't know, what's the reality?

/yawn/

I will happily bear you away on my stretcher of peace. Until you awake:

Hic iacit Saxi. Troll quondam, troll futurus.

Sym

[thegreekdog]

This thread must make Pedronicus so happy.

[Baron Von PWN]

This would be the Canadian senate that frequently gets prorogued by the Prime Minister? Perhaps, and I speak carefully here, not the best model for participatory democracy in the western world.

That isn't so much a problem of the Canadian senate as the excessive power of the PMO (prime minister's office). If the prime minister had some sort of check to his ability to prorogue (the Governor General is too ceremonial to do it.) then it wouldn't really be a problem. I think there is currently legislation moving through the commons which would require consent of Parliament in order to prorogue I'm not sure what's happened to it.

[Baron Von PWN]

This would be the Canadian senate that frequently gets prorogued by the Prime Minister? Perhaps, and I speak carefully here, not the best model for participatory democracy in the western world.

Technically, it's the House of Commons that the Prime Minister has prorogued, not the senate. The senate is a bunch of old dudes, appointed for life by their elected friends. They don't really do anything worth proroguing.

To quote saxi "incorrect", the senate was also prologued and senators are forced to retire at the age of 75. Also the Senate does do allot of important work for parliament in the form of committees and review of laws.

[Timminz]

This would be the Canadian senate that frequently gets prorogued by the Prime Minister? Perhaps, and I speak carefully here, not the best model for participatory democracy in the western world.

Technically, it's the House of Commons that the Prime Minister has prorogued, not the senate. The senate is a bunch of old dudes, appointed for life by their elected friends. They don't really do anything worth proroguing.

To quote saxi "incorrect", the senate was also prologued and senators are forced to retire at the age of 75. Also the Senate does do allot of important work for parliament in the form of committees and review of laws.

Well there you go. You learn something new every day, no matter how hard you try to avoid it.

[Baron Von PWN]

OK, since we are not going well with the Ireland thing, I propose a modest exchane between the US and the UK

You (the UK) can get the plans to our (the US) Senate (it requires creating "states" ... I think you are up to that challewnge ... and a "VP")

In return we (the US) gets to use the plans for your (the UK) "Question time" in the House of Commons. Can you imagine Obama and his entire cabinet of Progressive loonies having to come to Congress every week to have the Republicans openly question him? Here is a man who held a "healthcare summit" with time divided between one side, the other side and himself, and he took up most of the time pontificating. Here is a man who was asked a simple question by someone about how can he raise taxes when their taxes are already too high and took seventeen minutes to answer everything but the actual question itself!

You might not like that. It would mean Obama would be able to directly propose legislation and be directly involved with passing the bill in congress. Basically he would be a Congressman with the responsibilities of running the government.

[tzor]

You might not like that. It would mean Obama would be able to directly propose legislation and be directly involved with passing the bill in congress. Basically he would be a Congressman with the responsibilities of running the government.

I wasn't referring to "crossing the streams" as it were. I was referring to having the chief executive stand up for questions every week. In the US basically the cabinet can basically refuse to be at any committee meeting and the President only gives an address (and even then all he really needs to do is send a letter) once a year.

Currently the president does "propose legislation" (the biggest is called the "budget") and does lobby congress to pass bills. This president is ... how shall I put it ... too stupid is one way ... too narcissistic is another ... to get involved at level other than ...

"Behold, my plan dices and slices, supplies all your needs and reduces the deficit."
"But you don't have a plan!"
"Details, details."