The Book of Mormon

[b.k. barunt]

Just finished reading it again. Weird shit. Any non Mormons that've read it? Any Mormons that can explain to me how a massive civilization stretching from Canada to Mexico came and went without leaving a trace of historical evidence?


Honibaz

[Johnny Rockets]

The desire to believe out weighs the rational of logic.




South Park detailed it best.



JRock

[b.k. barunt]

That was a great episode - almost as good as the one on Scientology.


Honibaz

[2dimes]

How did you get through it? Seriously, I couldn't. Have you taken a run at the WOW or Pearls of great price?

[b.k. barunt]

I skimmed a lot this time. The first time i read it thoroughly because i have some Mormon friends. Unfortunately they didn't make the same effort for me in return, i.e. they didn't really try to answer the question about the lack of historical evidence - much the same way that OP and the other Mormons here skirt the issue.

I find the behavior of Mormons that i know to be exemplary. They are courteous, have solid family values and are basically good people. Unfortunately none of them seem to possess even a modicum of critical thinking but embrace the religion because that's how they were brought up. This seems to be true of all adherents to organized religion in general, but the tenets of Mormonism are a lot more whacked out than other mainstream beliefs.

I've also read "The Pearl of Great Price" and "Doctrines and Covenants" - don't know what you mean by "WOW".


Honibaz

[2dimes]

Words of wisdom. It could be in the D&C.

I have not even seen the WOW but have been told by really nice missionary dudes about how they dodge colds and illness thanks to following it. You'd figure the temple gaments should factor in, but maybe they don't talk about that because they're secret.

[demonfork]

Just finished reading it again. Weird shit. Any non Mormons that've read it? Any Mormons that can explain to me how a massive civilization stretching from Canada to Mexico came and went without leaving a trace of historical evidence?


Honibaz

Can you please point out to me where in the BOM where it says that this "massive civilization" stretched from Canada to Mexico....oh wait you can't because it doesn't.

[2dimes]

I dunno, was it just where the pointy things are? (pyramids) I think bk is probably saying that because of the story that the plates were pretty far north, no?

[Neoteny]

Just finished reading it again. Weird shit. Any non Mormons that've read it? Any Mormons that can explain to me how a massive civilization stretching from Canada to Mexico came and went without leaving a trace of historical evidence?


Honibaz

Can you please point out to me where in the BOM where it says that this "massive civilization" stretched from Canada to Mexico....oh wait you can't because it doesn't.

I'm pretty sure it's on page 17.

It's all like, "And there was a massive civilization stretching from Canada to Mexico that came and went without leaving a trace of historical evidence."

17 or 18. Somewhere around there.

[pimpdave]

Just finished reading it again. Weird shit. Any non Mormons that've read it? Any Mormons that can explain to me how a massive civilization stretching from Canada to Mexico came and went without leaving a trace of historical evidence?


Honibaz

Can you please point out to me where in the BOM where it says that this "massive civilization" stretched from Canada to Mexico....oh wait you can't because it doesn't.

Can you please point out to me where your religion said it was wrong to kidnap and rape young women and murder any men who got in the way of this vile practice? Or how black people are the spawn of demons?

[2dimes]

Spawn of demons.

Exagerate much?

Wretched seed of Cain.

Equally offensive and wrong perhaps. Still, not the same.
Either way Dave, lighten up. The guy that had said that who couldn't be wrong was...uh... incorect and that's been reversed.

[b.k. barunt]

Just finished reading it again. Weird shit. Any non Mormons that've read it? Any Mormons that can explain to me how a massive civilization stretching from Canada to Mexico came and went without leaving a trace of historical evidence?

Honibaz

Can you please point out to me where in the BOM where it says that this "massive civilization" stretched from Canada to Mexico....oh wait you can't because it doesn't.

Nice deflection. That was something i gathered from the entirety of the context. Let's say i'm wrong. How far did it stretch? Let's say for the sake of keeping to the main question that it only spanned the United States - where is the fooking evidence? We have artifacts from obscure Indian tribes that numbered less than a hundred people - where is one shred of evidence to indicate that there was a mighty civilization as mentioned in the Book of Mormon anywhere on this continent?

In one battle there were hundreds of thousands of casualties! These warriors wore breastplates, helmets, had swords and shields, etc. Where is the fucking evidence? Anyone ever found any of these shields, swords, breastplates or helmets? Are they stashed away in some secret Mormon museum? Were they spirited away like the magical Golden Tablets? How can you people be that fooking gullible?


Honibaz

[muy_thaiguy]

Maybe take this up with BYU?

[b.k. barunt]

Maybe take this up with BYU?

And why praytell do you think they'd give a shit?


Honibaz

[jonesthecurl]

Is there a Mormon university? Does it have an archaeology department?

[muy_thaiguy]

Maybe take this up with BYU?

And why praytell do you think they'd give a shit?


Honibaz

Just a thought, and maybe shut their smug mouths up for once (there are some exceptions, but some BYU people are irratating).

[muy_thaiguy]

Is there a Mormon university? Does it have an archaeology department?

BYU=Brigham Young University aka the Momon University (also one of the largest private universities with satelite schools in Idaho and Hawaii).

[b.k. barunt]

Is there a Mormon university? Does it have an archaeology department?

That's BYU. If they do have an archaeology dept. it must've skirted the question or avoided it altogether, as has the rest of the Mormon church.


Honibaz

[jonesthecurl]

Thanks. Does it have an American Archaeology department?

oops fast-posted.

[b.k. barunt]

Thanks. Does it have an American Archaeology department?

oops fast-posted.

Yeah i've never heard them give any direct answer to the question. Kinda like Optimus and demonfork - you saw how demonfork deflected the question about the evidence to the range of the civilization and didn't even address the historical evidence? That's what they do. Deflection and avoidance. It's a pretty embarrassing question if you're a Mormon.


Honibaz

[The Neon Peon]

Is there a Mormon university? Does it have an archaeology department?

That's BYU. If they do have an archaeology dept. it must've skirted the question or avoided it altogether, as has the rest of the Mormon church.


Honibaz

Honestly, it doesn't matter. Maybe our religion is completely baseless, but that would not stop me from continuing going to church every day and believing it.

Go live in someplace like Draper or Provo in Utah for a couple of years and you'll see why. The population is pretty close to entirely Mormon and you could hardly ask for a better community. Almost no crime, all the people are friendly, in many cases when someone has money problems, the rest of the community will completely support the person even if that's all they know about him/her.

Example: walking home in the rain, some stranger pulls over and offers you a ride, when you refuse, he hands you an umbrella and drives off without another word. (this happened twice to me while I lived there)

(Edit: I lived there for 5 years and in 6 different cities/towns)

To me, and I believe I can speak for many others of our faith, it doesn't matter if there is evidence against our religion and none for it. Either way, it's done something right.

...

And no, there is absolutely no archeological evidence of a large civilization ever existing in the parts of America that Mormons claim to have had one. (to my knowledge, at least).

But if you want some actual response that doesn't concede to that point, here it is: (but you won't like it)

If God wanted us to all live correctly, obey his commandments, have no crime, and have world peace, he could do so. Yet that would defeat the purpose of us being here. We are here so that we can, with no evidence of a God existing or of any religion to be correct, choose for ourselves which path we wish to go on. If God had left us archeological proof of the Book of Mormon to have been true, why not also have given us a video tape of himself creating the Earth? If everyone knew that God exists, living the right way and believing in him would have little meaning. The point of religion is the lack of proof.

[jonesthecurl]

I used to have a copy of the Book of Mormon, it seems to have disappeared like the golden tablets themselves. It's a shame because I got it in the 80's, it may well have been way older than that. Given some of the rumours I've heard about how much the sacred word changes over time, I'd have liked to compare it to a modern copy.

[b.k. barunt]

Just finished reading it again. Weird shit. Any non Mormons that've read it? Any Mormons that can explain to me how a massive civilization stretching from Canada to Mexico came and went without leaving a trace of historical evidence?


Honibaz

Can you please point out to me where in the BOM where it says that this "massive civilization" stretched from Canada to Mexico....oh wait you can't because it doesn't.

Notice the quotation marks here on "massive civilization" like i've exaggerated. Now go to the Book of Mormon online (google it) and read Ether chapter 15. Two Million "mighty men" slain along with their wives and families. I guess we could safely say that at least 3 million people were killed. Wouldn't you call a civilization big enough to sustain losses like that in one war a "mighty civilization"? Wouldn't you characterize someone who would try to play that down as somewhat dishonest?


Honibaz

[2dimes]

Any time you see a couple of nice fellows with the black name tags they will cheerfully give you a new one Jones. Old ones can sometimes be found in used bookstores and they are usually a deal. I've never had issue with a church member.

[b.k. barunt]

Is there a Mormon university? Does it have an archaeology department?

That's BYU. If they do have an archaeology dept. it must've skirted the question or avoided it altogether, as has the rest of the Mormon church.


Honibaz

Honestly, it doesn't matter. Maybe our religion is completely baseless, but that would not stop me from continuing going to church every day and believing it.

Go live in someplace like Draper or Provo in Utah for a couple of years and you'll see why. The population is pretty close to entirely Mormon and you could hardly ask for a better community. Almost no crime, all the people are friendly, in many cases when someone has money problems, the rest of the community will completely support the person even if that's all they know about him/her.

Example: walking home in the rain, some stranger pulls over and offers you a ride, when you refuse, he hands you an umbrella and drives off without another word. (this happened twice to me while I lived there)

(Edit: I lived there for 5 years and in 6 different cities/towns)

To me, and I believe I can speak for many others of our faith, it doesn't matter if there is evidence against our religion and none for it. Either way, it's done something right.

...

And no, there is absolutely no archeological evidence of a large civilization ever existing in the parts of America that Mormons claim to have had one. (to my knowledge, at least).

But if you want some actual response that doesn't concede to that point, here it is: (but you won't like it)

If God wanted us to all live correctly, obey his commandments, have no crime, and have world peace, he could do so. Yet that would defeat the purpose of us being here. We are here so that we can, with no evidence of a God existing or of any religion to be correct, choose for ourselves which path we wish to go on. If God had left us archeological proof of the Book of Mormon to have been true, why not also have given us a video tape of himself creating the Earth? If everyone knew that God exists, living the right way and believing in him would have little meaning. The point of religion is the lack of proof.

That's fooking incredible. You've just admitted that it doesn't matter what truth or lack thereof your religion is founded on, as long as the end result looks good. Nothing to argue about then. I rest my case.


Honibaz