The Fish Club - Christians come and discuss our faith.

[CBlake]

no , i think this is a great thread guys keep up the good work

[Aradhus]

I think most of the world has mis-information about who Jesus is

Judge a persons deeds not their words.

Jesus taught us that problems are solved by miracles.

Such a pragmatic guy that Jesus. I wish he were alive today, he'd really show us how to solve the many, many problems that blight society....

All you need is love! And a bag full of bread and fish.

[Abishai]

I did enjoy The screw Tape letters. I also ejoyed Lewis' Pilgrims Regress. For that matter I enjoyed Pilgrims Progres by John Bunyan as well. Has anyone read Lewis' Space Trilogy?

[luns101]

I enjoyed Pilgrims Progres by John Bunyan as well.

I can remember reading that. Awesome book.

[Lord Canti]

As a fellow Christian, Roman Catholic to be precise, I wanted to ask the faithful of this site a question about society.

Many Christian religous groups condemn gay relations and marriage as a terrible sin, in accordance with the teachings of the Bible. However, they ignore another aspect of marriage that goes directly against the teachings of the Bible. I'm talking about divorce. The rate of divorce in America is about 50%. I haven't heard any outrage over this statistic. How can we pick and choose which parts of the Bible we will defend and which we will let slide? It leaves us weak.

Personally, I am tolarent on the issue of gay marriage, seeing as the rest of us have allowed marriage to become a joke, compared to the sacred religous ceremony it should be.

[Fish Breeder Boy]

A-men you guys.

[vtmarik]

As a fellow Christian, Roman Catholic to be precise, I wanted to ask the faithful of this site a question about society.

Many Christian religous groups condemn gay relations and marriage as a terrible sin, in accordance with the teachings of the Bible. However, they ignore another aspect of marriage that goes directly against the teachings of the Bible. I'm talking about divorce. The rate of divorce in America is about 50%. I haven't heard any outrage over this statistic. How can we pick and choose which parts of the Bible we will defend and which we will let slide? It leaves us weak.

Personally, I am tolarent on the issue of gay marriage, seeing as the rest of us have allowed marriage to become a joke, compared to the sacred religous ceremony it should be.

If marriage is a wholly religious, consecrated ceremony, then civil servants such as judges and notaries shouldn't be able to perform marriage ceremonies.

How about a compromise? If anyone, homosexual or heterosexual, gets married without the presence of a priest or other religious official then it becomes a civil union. If the couple gets married under the auspices of a religious rite, then you can call it a marriage.

Let's preserve the sanctity of the institution of marriage by keeping it where it belongs, in Church.

EDIT: Sorry, I realize that I don't belong here.... I'll go away now.

[lusi]

Couldnt resist the chance to post. Been a Chrisitan for most of my life, albeit maybe not a very good one. I was given a bible by my gran in the early 70's and inside she wrote "Remember you are never alone......" I went to a convent school and so religion was 'drummed' in through out my school life. I rebelled against it and argued it at ever point given (although still believing). I prayed when I needed to and dissed Him when things didnt go my way. Various forms of tragedy have struck in my life but still I did not turn to Him (completely). I reached an all time low about 5 years ago and through a relative turned to Him. He is my friend and confidante. And now at the end of a good or bad day I remember I am not alone......... I have a friend in Jesus!

[red bull]

Has anyone read Lewis' Space Trilogy?

yes and loved it

[beezer]

Has anyone read Lewis' Space Trilogy?

yes and loved it

Yeah, I especially like the 2nd book in the series where he re-creates the whole "temptation in the Garden of Eden" scene...only doing it on another planet. I find it fascinating to speculate on what life would have been like if mankind had chosen not to sin in the first place. Lewis did a good job on that one.

[CrazyAnglican]

EDIT: Sorry, I realize that I don't belong here.... I'll go away now.

I hope I haven't given you that impression. I agree with you that two separate types of marriage should, and do, exist. I don't think there is any problem at all with your suggestion. I don't see the need to force anyone to conform with me or my faith, if they don't hold share my beliefs.
Personal choice and free will are both integral parts of Christianity. God allows us to make our own choices hoping that we will choose him of our own free will.

[CrazyAnglican]

How can we pick and choose which parts of the Bible we will defend and which we will let slide? It leaves us weak.

Personally, I am tolarent on the issue of gay marriage, seeing as the rest of us have allowed marriage to become a joke, compared to the sacred religous ceremony it should be.

Wow, that opens a whole can of worms doesn't it? I agree it does weaken us to a point. For instance:
I'm paraphrasing a debate against Christianity by Alan Dershowitz "I'm glad you cleared that up about homosexuality being immoral because it says so in Leviticus ..... By the way my neighbor works on the Sabbath. Should I stone him myself, or can I hire a hitman". Then when I've killed him what will become of me for breaking that commandment? But wait isn't vengeance the Lord's? Phew! and we wonder why non believers think we're hung up on rules, huh?
Can I answer this question? probably not. My partial response is that there is a lot of the cultural, religious, and historical identity of the Jewish people tied up in the Old Testament. God's people held themselves to a high (impossibly high?) standard. It was a debate in the early church whether Gentiles should be held to the Jewish law (Acts of the Apostles), and the answer was generally, No.
Does that let us completely off the hook? We are given two the two great commandments "Love one another as I have loved you". Are you really, ready to be crucified for me like he was? I'm still working on that one myself. "Love thy neighbor as thyself". I've got an easier time with this one. I know I'm kind of a jerk at times, but don't want anything bad to happen to me because of it. So it becomes a little easier to forgive the other jerks in the world.
I guess, my approach is to not condemn anyone for anything I wouldn't want to be set straight over. While I support the right to have a divorce, my wife and I took four years to make the decision to get married and we have taken the vows seriously and it doesn't seem like an option for us.

Thanks for the inciteful post,

CA

[lusi]

I may be way off topic here but will put pen to paper nontheless!

Times have changed certainly since biblical terms. The bible has been translated into millions of languages and interpreted millions of times just in English. My personal feeling of the bible is how you interpret what Jesus was saying and not what we are taught. I argued that continuously in school! For instance English Literature, Shakespeare in particular, my interpretation of Hamlet was way off from my professor. And although he explained that people had studied Shakespeare's work (who are defenitely more knowledgeable than me!) at the end of the day Shakespeare did not tell them exactly what he was saying. And the same applies to the Bible and Christianity. Jesus did not leave an interpretor behind to dissect every paragraph and its meaning. He gave us the bible and the tools to read and interpret it - therefore we as inividuals should do just that. That does not mean our interpretation is correct and final - it means we as individuals have a better understanding of what we believe.

[beezer]

EDIT: Sorry, I realize that I don't belong here.... I'll go away now.

Personal choice and free will are both integral parts of Christianity. God allows us to make our own choices hoping that we will choose him of our own free will.

I think you are partially right. Yes, we have free will to choose to either follow or disobey God. But we do not get to choose the consequence of that disobedience.

[CrazyAnglican]

Yes, we have free will to choose to either follow or disobey God. But we do not get to choose the consequence of that disobedience.

That's true, but generally, consequences are a result of our choices and not a choice in and of themselves. Like jumping off a bridge, your are not in a sense choosing to fall, rather than fly. The consequence is simply the natural effect.

In this sense, I believe, that choosing to separate oneself from God leads eventually to either reunion with him or cutting yourself off from him altogether. In this sense, we have chosen Heaven or Hell as a natural consequence of our smaller choices throughout our lives.

[luns101]

Many Christian religous groups condemn gay relations and marriage as a terrible sin, in accordance with the teachings of the Bible. However, they ignore another aspect of marriage that goes directly against the teachings of the Bible. I'm talking about divorce. The rate of divorce in America is about 50%. I haven't heard any outrage over this statistic. How can we pick and choose which parts of the Bible we will defend and which we will let slide? It leaves us weak.

Perhaps Christians do spend more time condemning one sin over another. Also, I think it depends on which culture you live in. Certain countries may take a great amount of offense to certain sins more than others, which also influences the Christians who happen to live there.

I've heard some people tell me that being disrespectful to one's parents isn't as bad as committing murder. That makes sense to me. However, God doesn't think like we do and took the time to include the 5th commandment "Honor your father and mother" as part of the 10 commandments.

So while followers of Christ may focus on one sin more than another, I don't think that the seriousness of other sins escapes His attention or his judgment.

James 2:19 - "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that, and shudder."

[freyme]

God accepts all those that accept Him and freely forgives any that ask with a truly repentent heart, no matter the sin. Human nature is to rate certain things as worse than others. God and the Bible don't do that. Sin is sin no matter what it is. We all miss the mark from time to time, but we all need to seek forgiveness.

One of the hardest things for me is to remember to not judge others. How can I expect people that are not believers to live to the standards of the Bible? This does not mean that I approve of all the things that people do. According to the Bible, all were created by God and we must love everyone, no matter what they do. Does not say we have to love and approve of everything people do. Sometimes hard to separate, because I want everyone to know and follow Jesus, but that is a choice that everyone makes individually.

[CrazyAnglican]

Whew, good post freyme. I can't think of anything to add to it.

[Aradhus]

One of the hardest things for me is to remember to not judge others. How can I expect people that are not believers to live to the standards of the Bible? This does not mean that I approve of all the things that people do.

Wow, self righteous, delusional and condescending all in the space of a few lines.

You should be worrying about the believers living up to the standards required from the bible, not the non believers. They don't, by the way. Not one of you christians can live up to that idealistic pish. You know why? Because you're human beings...(probably, hopefully)

[freyme]

Not trying to be self righteous. Actually saying we shouldn't judge non believers because you don't believe the same things we do. I am saying the exact same thing you are.

[Backglass]

Jesus did not leave an interpretor behind to dissect every paragraph and its meaning.

But he did...and his name is jay.

[luns101]

Not one of you christians can live up to that idealistic pish. You know why? Because you're human beings...(probably, hopefully)

"For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" - Romans 3:23

"But God demonstrates His love to us in this, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" - Romans 5:8

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" - Romans 10:13

[freyme]

Because I ran out of time this morning before I had to go to work. I will freely admit that I don't live a perfect life. I make many mistakes and do things that are contrary to what I believe. I try and do the best that I can. I also was trying, less than eloquently of course, to say that I try and not to judge anybody, because it is not my place to do so. I do think that Christians should seek out other Christians to hold each other accountable in our actions, because as someone else said, actions speak louder than words.

If I sounded condescending or self-righteous, I apologize.

[Abishai]

You should be worrying about the believers living up to the standards required from the bible, not the non believers. They don't, by the way. Not one of you christians can live up to that idealistic pish. You know why? Because you're human beings...(probably, hopefully)[/quote]

My point exactly none weather believer or none believer can match up to Go's standard. As a matter of fact the scriputure says "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rage; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6)
The Hebrew word for filthy rags is the words the Hebrews use for the rags a women would use during her monthly cycle. You see even as christians all our "good works" are detestable to God. But yet we (I included.) would then compare the things we have done to others and "judge them" but we forget what Romans 2:3 "So when you, a mere man, pass judgement on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgement?"
So the law of God pronounces us guilty and deserving of death, but then enters the grace of God which comes through and only through Christ. He did what no one has ever done nor will. He lived the perfect life (1 Peter 2:22-25; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Heb 4:15; 1 john 3:5) and died the death we deserved so that we might receive the blessings of God. Namely to know Him. So it is not what a man does, but what Christ has done for us, for you, for me.
So God, because of Christ declares us righteous. (justification.)

So in a nut shell sanctification is really learning to let the old adam be killed and to let the new adam in Christ be displayed in us. But true maturity is not like everyone thinks that we get better and better. Christians should think of themselves as the worst of all men, much worse than the unbeliever, cause we know God and His standard, but cannot keep it. As we grow we should realize His standard more and more and see more and more how we cannot keep even one letter of the law, much less a commandment, So we learn to trust Christ and His works even more and thus we naturally give Him more of ourselves, but this cannot be measured by conforming outwards actions to right deeds. It is also right thinking and right motives.

[luns101]

Excellent points, Abishai.

Even more excellent is your avatar. How did you find it?