150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

[Raskholnikov]

Not much. See below a VERY rough map showing where all cities, capitals, ports, religious sites, battles and roads should be placed.

In terms of symbols, check pamoa's Central Asia map. See how the little tankers carry the numbers of each objective? I think we should try to develop symbols along those lines for all our objectives, that keep numbers clear yet show also clearly what kind of objective each item is.

I will leave it up to you to develop the symbols, but this is my idea: each number should fit into a reverse L (ie th foot of the L turned leftwards; and on the "mast" of the L we could put a small symbol: a triangle could represent the sail of a boat and be the port, an X could be two swords and represent a battle site, a square could be a holy building and represent religious sites, a circle could be a plaza and represent a city, a star could be the capital. This is just a suggestion, see what you can come up with - but I really like pamoa's idea of integrating symbol and numbers in such an elegant an economic way.

By the way, nothing stops us from developing our own, different symbols, maybe inspired from Islamic calligraphy, and use curved lines around objective numbers instead of straight ones. All I'm saying is please feel free to think outside of the box, as long as whatever we come up with is a) clear and b) attractive graphically.

One other thing will be to make sure we can clearly distinguish roads from rivers.

I truly think this map you found has great potential, as long as we find a way to make it clear, even for the small size, and manage to include all objectives.

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This is the map with the most accurate objective placements. All objective names are at the top of the thread. See what you can so with all this. Many thanks.

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The part in blue is the missing piece. I have no idea if we can add that part in a way tha blends in graphically with the rest of the map. See what you can do, please...

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[porkenbeans]

Is this enough ?
Which do you prefer. Light or dark water ?

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[porkenbeans]

Rask
Can you try to lay out the territs using a large circle, in the desired locations. (see example).
I want to use the over sized circle just as a stand-in, to make sure that we have enough room, when I go to lay out the real placements.

Make it so that the circles are not overlapping. Since I did not distort the land to accommodate, (like I did in the old map), You may have some trouble fitting them in, especially in the areas of Italy, and France. You may need to re-think the territ count, and GP a bit. Remember that this is the large version, and everything must be able to scale down for the small version, without loosing legibility. So that means that we must NOT cram things too tight.

Click image to enlarge.

[porkenbeans]

I just had a thought. Maybe (if need be), we could double up on the icons in a couple of places. Like in those tight places such as Lombard, we could simply designate a territ with two different icons. this will allow us to eliminate a territ here and there.

[Raskholnikov]

Hi Pork,

Here it is:

Click image to enlarge.

[MrBenn]

What was the reason for making this 'upside-down'?

[Evil DIMwit]

What was the reason for making this 'upside-down'?

'Cause there are enough maps of Europe/North Africa the other way around?

[natty dread]

If I recall correctly it was because arabian maps of the time had south up?

[isaiah40]

Is this enough ?
Which do you prefer. Light or dark water ?

I'd go with the light water because it is supposed to be an old map, so the light looks like an old map. With the black water it just makes the map look too dark.

[Raskholnikov]

Pretty much all maps of the time were oriented this way, because Arab cartographers had adopted this orientation and they were considered to be the best, therefore everyone imitated them. That started to change more or less when then Portugese became the great explorers of their age and their cartographers took leading positions. Since this map is essentially about the early Islamic world (see battle dates at top of thread), the orientation is an "hommage" to the arab cartographers of the time.

Plus what Evil said! lol

Does everyone like the light water better? If so, Pork and I can easily change it around.

Thanks for the comments.

[Raskholnikov]

Please also remember that the area of each dynasty on this map represents the heartland of each dynasty. Over time, they all expanded or contracted at the expense or benefit of their neighbours, as they all fought each other both within the same religious family and across religious divides. It is this ebb and flow of dynasties across time and space that the game is supposed to illustrate - and not the frozen map of the Caliphate at the greatest extent of either the Ummayad or Abbasid Caliphates. The Ummayad and Abbasid heartlands are represented, however, and it is up to the players of each to expand their dominions -or not.

However, the battles as indicated at the top of the thread are real and did indeed take place.

[theBastard]

I like how is map developing.

about symbols, try to use any from history, I think. the map look very good as old fashioned so it needs old symbols...
maybe cross and crescent for religious?

pork, show to Raskholnikov something from Reconquista, everything is free.

[Evil DIMwit]

Awful lot of Christian Europe for a map based on Muslim territories. Maybe you should cut out the bottom two kingdoms, replace them with some abstract territories saying "Here be Christians"

[porkenbeans]

Awful lot of Christian Europe for a map based on Muslim territories. Maybe you should cut out the bottom two kingdoms, replace them with some abstract territories saying "Here be Christians"

That would surely help to cut down on the number of territs, and for that reason, I might get behind the idea. Although, The Battle for God IS all about the Muslim -V- Christian war, that lasted throughout this period, and up till today, for that matter.

I doubt that Rask will be keen on this idea at all. The only thing that I could agree with, is that it WOULD be nice, if we could somehow loose 20%-30% of the territs. I have just about got an update ready, and man, -is it crowded.

[Raskholnikov]

To eliminate one or more of the Christian kingdoms, or somehow amalgamate them into an amorphous Christian area would totally change the game, both in terms of gameplay and the historical realities it is supposed to illustrate (see Pork's comments above)

That being said, I am not dead set against cutting territories as long as the game remains balanced. For example, I can see cutting 1 territory from each kingdom without substantially altering the game. If need be, I could also see reducing the Franks from 11 territories to 5 (including a religious site). This would bring us down from 100 to 86 territories and would decongest the - admittedly- crowded Western Europe Section, as well as the Middle East area. In all, a reduction of 14 %. Not quite as drastic as the upper range of 30 % pork mentioned, but pretty close to his 20 % mark.

I would like, however, to wait and see Pork's new version before we decide which direction we should take.

[oaktown]

Awful lot of Christian Europe for a map based on Muslim territories. Maybe you should cut out the bottom two kingdoms, replace them with some abstract territories saying "Here be Christians"

Evil makes a good point; since this is a map with a purportedly Muslim point of view it is indeed odd that it seems to have such a Christian-centric view of the world. Probably this is because the Islamic study of geography (which began in earnest around the 7th century) got its start by studying Greek and Roman geography; they used Ptolemy's prime meridian, and would have included the world known to the Romans - and both Ptolemy and the Romans put north at the top. As Islamic geopgraphy progressed later cartographers indeed put South at the top of their maps, because...

Arab cartographers did, indeed, put South at the top of their maps, but that would be pre-Islam. So there's an argument for orienting it either way - a map of the Arab world at the time would likely have South at the top, while a larger map of showing the Christian world from this time would probably have north at the top. I'd say leave it as is because it's just cooler.

Personally, I don't think that's nearly as problematic as the title. "The Battle for God" makes an otherwise epic historical campaign sound like a Brendan Fraser movie.

Visually, there's a lot going on. It will be much easier on players if you lighten up the grunge, or lose the extraneous wind lines altogether.

[Raskholnikov]

Awful lot of Christian Europe for a map based on Muslim territories. Maybe you should cut out the bottom two kingdoms, replace them with some abstract territories saying "Here be Christians"

Evil makes a good point; since this is a map with a purportedly Muslim point of view it is indeed odd that it seems to have such a Christian-centric view of the world.

How exactly does it have it? i mean, the Franks and Lombards and Slavs and Byzantines really were there at this time in history and all fought both between themselves and with various Muslim states. The idea of the map is to show that clashes took place boboth within and between various religious denominations. Just because it represents the realities of the time it doesn't, I think, make it Christian centric. But, as mentioned above, I am willing to make some territory cuts, depending on what pork comes up with.


Probably this is because the Islamic study of geography (which began in earnest around the 7th century) got its start by studying Greek and Roman geography; they used Ptolemy's prime meridian, and would have included the world known to the Romans - and both Ptolemy and the Romans put north at the top. As Islamic geopgraphy progressed later cartographers indeed put South at the top of their maps, because...

Arab cartographers did, indeed, put South at the top of their maps, but that would be pre-Islam. So there's an argument for orienting it either way - a map of the Arab world at the time would likely have South at the top, while a larger map of showing the Christian world from this time would probably have north at the top. I'd say leave it as is because it's just cooler.

If you look up this thread, there have been extensive discussions and map examples given as to map orientation. In brief, up until about the beginning of the 14th century all maps, both Christian and Muslim, had this orientation. Al Idrisi-s famous map served as standard and there were many copies, both Christian and Muslim, that followed it. Only later, starting with Portugese explorations, did Europeans take the lead in map-making and eventually reversed map positions to what they are today.

Personally, I don't think that's nearly as problematic as the title. "The Battle for God" makes an otherwise epic historical campaign sound like a Brendan Fraser movie.

LOL I am willing to reconsider that part of the title if people don't like it. But given the win objectives, I think it kind works. Do you have a better suggestion?

Visually, there's a lot going on. It will be much easier on players if you lighten up the grunge, or lose the extraneous wind lines altogether.

Wind lines? Sorry but I don't know what you mean... And btw thank you for the comments, much appreciated. Please come back once pork puts up the new version and let us know what you think.

[theBastard]

there is nothing bad to have map from Arab (medieval?) carthography view. it is interesting and rare here.

also keep all "kingdoms" here (both - muslims and christian). to be historic accuracy there could be more of them...

about routes - what about Silk road or another important road?

keep good work guys.

[Raskholnikov]

thanks for your comments. I think i'll have a hard time keeping the 9 I have, adding more is impossible. The Silk Road goes to China, and would not fit here. But we have ports to signify trade routes.

[theBastard]

thanks for your comments. I think i'll have a hard time keeping the 9 I have, adding more is impossible. The Silk Road goes to China, and would not fit here. But we have ports to signify trade routes.

just for accuracy Silk road goes from China to Europe over all Asian Muslim world...

[oaktown]

Sorry to be unclear - by "wind lines" I meant the straight lines that fan out from various points on the map - I called them wind lines (for lack of a better term) because in old maps such lines would usually be used to indicate wind directions on a sea chart. I applaud the use of such historical elements on a map, but as this is a map that uses lines to indicate attack routes it's confusing to also have lines that aren't involved in the game play in any way.

Historical point: I will concede the historical merit of Muhammad al-Idrisi's map, and go you one further and say that Ibn Battuta was perhaps the most accomplished explorer of the era, but all of this happened five centuries after the setting of this map. But stick with the South-top orientation - as I said it's just cooler.

As for "battle for god"... really, it's not a battle for god as nobody wins god, they win land and wealth and power and souls... "battle for souls" would be more to the point. And as it's a war between the Abrahamic religions, it's all technically the same god so you can't even call it a battle over god. It's a war over doctrine, or ideology, but that doesn't quite roll off the tongue now does it. Something referring to the descendants of Abraham would be cool. Anyway, best of luck as you roll on.

[Evil DIMwit]

As for "battle for god"... really, it's not a battle for god as nobody wins god, they win land and wealth and power and souls... "battle for souls" would be more to the point. And as it's a war between the Abrahamic religions, it's all technically the same god so you can't even call it a battle over god. It's a war over doctrine, or ideology, but that doesn't quite roll off the tongue now does it. Something referring to the descendants of Abraham would be cool. Anyway, best of luck as you roll on.

I suppose it might be a battle for God in the sense that it's perceived as being in the name of God, or for God's benefit.

[porkenbeans]

Sorry to be unclear - by "wind lines" I meant the straight lines that fan out from various points on the map - I called them wind lines (for lack of a better term) because in old maps such lines would usually be used to indicate wind directions on a sea chart. I applaud the use of such historical elements on a map, but as this is a map that uses lines to indicate attack routes it's confusing to also have lines that aren't involved in the game play in any way.

Historical point: I will concede the historical merit of Muhammad al-Idrisi's map, and go you one further and say that Ibn Battuta was perhaps the most accomplished explorer of the era, but all of this happened five centuries after the setting of this map. But stick with the South-top orientation - as I said it's just cooler.

As for "battle for god"... really, it's not a battle for god as nobody wins god, they win land and wealth and power and souls... "battle for souls" would be more to the point. And as it's a war between the Abrahamic religions, it's all technically the same god so you can't even call it a battle over god. It's a war over doctrine, or ideology, but that doesn't quite roll off the tongue now does it. Something referring to the descendants of Abraham would be cool. Anyway, best of luck as you roll on.

Oak, I think that you are looking at the "old" version. Take a gander on the previous page. There you will see a draft of what I would like to use in place of the map with the lines. I will have something to post soon, and hopefully then we will have something to update the first page with.

I must say that I am very happy to see you taking an interest in this project. You are one of my most respected mapmakers. Your input is most welcomed.

[Raskholnikov]

Hi Pork,

Here is a revised draft map with 91 territories only, instread of 106.

Try the system you used on the draft you showed me, with this data. I think it will substantially decongest it.

Thanks,

R

Click image to enlarge.

[paulk]

The map on the first page, fucking beautiful!!!
I just love the perspective, and it will be one of the few maps I will play with interest. Might even become a new favorite, and I am helluva picky.
I think a map has to have beauty as well as brilliance. Just as a woman. And this map is beautiful.

Click image to enlarge.