150 After Hijrah: The Battle for God

[porkenbeans]

Thank you so much paulk for the fine revue. I too liked that version a lot. But Rast is the Director on this project, and he has a different vision. I hope that I can make him happy with this latest version, and maybe you will like it as well. Fingers crossed, and please stay tuned.

[Raskholnikov]

I also liked the color pallette and the symbols on the map at the top. However, I had a big problem with the land borders, which are utterly distorted, and the darkness of the map which makes the roads and symbols almost unreadable - and that. on the large version!

Let's see what the next draft looks like and how we can get to something that is visually as nice as the top map but more accurate and clearer.

Great work, Pork. I'm sure we'll come up with something really unique in the end!

[Incandenza]

Is it really too much to ask that you guys keep the first post updated, so that you don't waste people's time by forcing them to hint for the most recent draft?

[Raskholnikov]

We will when it will actually be ready.

[Raskholnikov]

Pork, please check again the last map I posted above to see th kind of visuals I'm looking for. Thanks.

[Raskholnikov]

Hi Pork,

This is a rough example of what I mean in my last IM to you. Imagine the background is a table with an arabesque motif on which is laid out this ancient map, and on top of it a piece of parchemin, a picture and, in the lower right corner, a stone with arabic inscription to hold it from flying away. Maybe you can check the Napoleon 1812 draft map in the final forge to see how Kab integrated different elements in a 3-d like picture of a map on a background with various elements on top. That's the kind of feel i's like to have here too.

The picture is an "hommage" to the greatest cartographer of his age.

Again the specific items and fonts etc are just my ideas and you can find other things if you want. This is just to give you an idea of what I see this map becoming.

Thanks,

R.

Click image to enlarge.

[theBastard]

Kievan Rus was not established before 800 AD. the large area of Eastern Europe was settled by Slavs, but there was not centralized Slavish empire before 800 AD.

what about Avars?

for European Kingdoms you could use coat of arms. it is better as flags, I think. and if Kievan Rus will be on map, the flag is modern Ukraina map.

[Raskholnikov]

As you can see at the top of the thread, the battles take place between 711 and 827 AD. In any case, you may notice there are 10 dynasties but only 8 starting points maximum. So at least 2 dynasties will not really be active even in 8 player games. The map is designed to represent the overall possible course of events over a longer period of time, allowing for some dynasties to appear and peak either earlier or later than they did historically, or not at all. As such, the purpose is to have a dynamic map looking at the "what-if"s of history, and not an exact representation of an exact historical year, like Europe 1914. It's closer to The New World and to The Pelloponesian War, which both provide great game-plays, even if they bring together some historical elements that never really all existed at the same time (ex: Persians and Romans on TPW).

Also, we will for sure not use the flags as they are, but shields with the colors of each. If we find them too distracting, maybe we won't even use these at all. Let's see what Pork will come up with for his next version.

Many thanks for your comments.

[natty dread]

As you can see at the top of the thread, the battles take place between 711 and 827 AD. In any case, you may notice there are 10 dynasties but only 8 starting points maximum. So at least 2 dynasties will not really be active even in 8 player games.

Just so you know, you can have more than 8 starting points, and starting points are always distributed evenly. So if you have 10 starting points, then each gets 2 starting points in a 5 player game, or 3 in a 3 player game, or 5 in a 2 player game... the leftovers can be set as neutral or to be distributed with other territories (if any other non-neutrals exist that is.)

[Raskholnikov]

Oh great! Even better! Thanks for letting me know...

[natty dread]

No problem... also if 10 player games ever become an option, your map will be ready for them

[porkenbeans]

OK, here is the new territ count layout. I think that this is much better with fewer territs. It is less crowded, and easier on the eyes.

I did not take a lot of time on the roads, and they are not complete, but it shows how they will look.

I have altered the style a bit just to show something different with each update. In the end after we have got everything laid out the way that we want, then we will have several different styles, to pick and choose from.

Click image to enlarge.

[mibi]

CC needs more designers and less artists.

[Raskholnikov]

This is roughly what it would look like with city codes and 888s. Pork is working on it and will post his version at the top of the thread as soon as it is ready. Territories are down from 106 to 91, with 10 starting points preserved.

Click image to enlarge.

[Incandenza]

We will when it will actually be ready.

Well, then, maybe you should take your conversation with pork to PM or email, so you don't waste everyone's time. Or keep the first post updated. But the way you're doing this is like a big upraised middle finger to commenters, no one wants to have to hunt thru the thread to find the latest draft.

[Raskholnikov]

Too bad you feel this way. No one forces you to review this thread before the lead picture changes. This way, you will avoid wasting your time.

[Evil DIMwit]

Too bad you feel this way. No one forces you to review this thread before the lead picture changes. This way, you will avoid wasting your time.

On the other hand, by driving away potential commenters, you're really sabotaging your project, aren't you? If you make it easier for people to respond, you'll get more beneficial feedback.

[natty dread]

It is often the case that the worth of the idea is largely judged based on the way an idea is presented...

[Raskholnikov]

I agree with both of you. We simply don't yet have a new picture. We're working on it. As soon as we do, it will be posted. We are far from being the only ones using this thread for development purposes - and for no other maps do people get this kind of mean-spirited attacks like "don't use this thread until you have a fully developed and finised new picture and don't post here any ideas or exchange any thoughts because you confuse and alienate the commentators. Come on, he just wants to create trouble - and I haven't played his game to start an argument all over again like last year. I've been brief and polite and just ended the discussion. So unless you are officially telling me that Foundry rules explicitly forbid cartographers to use this thread to communicate with each other and exchange ideas in progress in order to arrive at a finished product, I have no idea what this whole thing is about.

Botttom line: the top picture will be changed as soon as we have a new one. We don't yet - all we have is drafts and works in progress.

[the.killing.44]

Botttom line: the top picture will be changed as soon as we have a new one. We don't yet - all we have is drafts and works in progress.

Any image before the one uploaded and live = draft / WIP.

Just change the first post, you're not making any stand by keeping an outdated image over one that is marginally more completed, posted earlier on this page. Keep them both if you're so in love with the extra info the first post's image has.

[porkenbeans]

Botttom line: the top picture will be changed as soon as we have a new one. We don't yet - all we have is drafts and works in progress.

Any image before the one uploaded and live = draft / WIP.

Just change the first post, you're not making any stand by keeping an outdated image over one that is marginally more completed, posted earlier on this page. Keep them both if you're so in love with the extra info the first post's image has.

I am with Rask on this one. The first post WILL be updated once we have something new to post. All other drafts since then, are only peeks into our studio, at bantered about ideas. Nothing has been worked through enough, to be able to post as the "new" latest draft.

What would you have us do ? -Update the first post with every sketch ?

We are simply using this thread to iron out ideas. NOT every sketch that you see here, is going to be adopted.

Once we DO decide on something new to be adopted, We WILL update the first post with it.

We have only recently picked this project back up. Please have a little patience with us. We WILL have something new to update, as soon as we have something new to update WITH.

[porkenbeans]

Maybe we are supposed to just use PM's until we are at a consensus ?
If this is correct, Someone please tell us so. Then maybe we can end all of this nonproductive chat.

[natty dread]

Maybe we are supposed to just use PM's until we are at a consensus ?

Yes, that seems to be the foundry guideline when there are more than one mapmakers.

[porkenbeans]

Maybe we are supposed to just use PM's until we are at a consensus ?

Yes, that seems to be the foundry guideline when there are more than one mapmakers.

Thank you natty. I am glad that we have cleared this up. I will adopt this M.O. right away.

[Raskholnikov]

Can I see that guideline written down somewhere please? Why exactly are we being harassed on this? Do you really have to impose such rigid procedural uniformity for no reason at all and deny people the right to actually communicate as they wish? Just why are we simply not allowed to have some fun without being attacked all the time? Are you people really incapable of leaving us be??? Until I can see it written in black and white, in the Foundry gudielines, that cartographers are prohibited from using their own map thread for communication and development purrposes other than posting a fully finished draft (which must be defined as to what it should include to be considered finished) I will use this thread as I wish whilst remaining within the Foundry written guidelines - and ignore all those who have made it their purpose to post here just to poison the atmosphere. I couldn't care less what you think. If I am within the guidelines, if I am breaking no accepted rules as evidenced in writing, then I am perfectly entitled to proceed as I see appropriate. If you don't like it, stay out of this thread.