The Third German Empire

[tokle]

Click image to enlarge.

The third german empire at its height in 1943.

[natty dread]

Umm... Since CC doesn't even allow Swastikas on maps that feature nazis, I don't know if a map of Nazi Germany will fly...

[jsholty4690]

Could use other flags/symbols used during the 3rd Reich http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_germany

Resurected German Empire Flag

Reichskreigsflagge (War Flag)

Wehrmacht Service Flag

Or the Schutzstaffel (SS) Symbol

[Industrial Helix]

Ooo... cool! Looks like this one will fit better than Angevin Empire and I hope you continue.

Natty is right though, CC doesn't allow swastikas but I suppose you could throw an Iron Cross with the Nazi Eagle on it there instead.

[Evil DIMwit]

The maps looks somewhat dull as it is... I suppose I'm just used to WWII-era maps being more reflective of historical events, rather than just territory configuration. There's nothing here about the political situation, of Germany's place in Europe, other territories under German control at the time, or where German forces are fighting -- indeed, no indication that there's a war at all.

Which is not to say that you're required to incorporate historical happenings into the gameplay, but it's odd to see a map zoomed in on this particular place and time with hardly a mention at all.

[theBastard]

not bad start. I agree with Evil, it needs something more. is this map from before WW II or after start of WW II? because I see Poland as part of Germany what was after start of WW II. than others things of WW II are not here...

maybe do map before WW II, Germany (divided to regions as you have), Protectorates of Czech-Moravia, Austria...

about Svastika, it could look like propagation of nazism, but is this historic map...

[Industrial Helix]

Hmm... after evil dimwits suggestions I think with this map you could make something along the lines of Hitler's conquests before the war actually got going.

[tokle]

Ok. The swastika is easy to get rid of.

The maps looks somewhat dull as it is...

Which is not to say that you're required to incorporate historical happenings into the gameplay, but it's odd to see a map zoomed in on this particular place and time with hardly a mention at all.

Actually the reason I chose this was precisely because you would hardly ever look at this country on its own. To look at it in a different light. And I'm not talking about looking at the nazi regime in a different light, only the adminitrational divisions of the empire itself.

not bad start. I agree with Evil, it needs something more. is this map from before WW II or after start of WW II? because I see Poland as part of Germany what was after start of WW II. than others things of WW II are not here...

maybe do map before WW II, Germany (divided to regions as you have), Protectorates of Czech-Moravia, Austria...

about Svastika, it could look like propagation of nazism, but is this historic map...

The map is of the teritories that were annexed directly into the German empire during the war. The date is 1943.

Hmm... after evil dimwits suggestions I think with this map you could make something along the lines of Hitler's conquests before the war actually got going.

I suppose... That's an idea.

[uptothemax]

The title of your map suggest IMHO something like 'Alexander's Empire'.
In fact this map shows Germany with all her conquests in the Eastern direction. Germany occupied a lot more countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDR.png shows a map with looks similar to your map.
It shows so-called Reichsgaue *1) which might be compared to a shire in England.

Personally I don't understand the necessicity of such a map. Certainly not with a swastika displayed on it.

uptothemax


*1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsgau)

[Arama86n]

That does not reflect the third reich at it's height. after dividing up Poland with the Russians, the germans turned west, overrunning the french.(your map does not include france, which the germans had already.. um '40? 41?) Basically at it's zenith Nazi Germany had all of mainland Europe east of Spain (exl Switzerland, neutral) border to 200km from moscow, this including Denmark and Norway. (Sweden Neutral, Finland an ally of sorts to begin with, or at least a country with a common objective, killing russians...). Also check dates on north africa holdings.

Just a few thoughts, from memory.

[tokle]

As I said before, the map is of the actual country of Germany at the time, with it's gaue (and reichsgaue). Not territories under military occupation. It does include Luxembourg and parts of France, so not only eastward expansion.

[MarshalNey]

As I said before, the map is of the actual country of Germany at the time, with it's gaue (and reichsgaue). Not territories under military occupation. It does include Liecthenstein and parts of France, so not only eastward expansion.

He's right, everyone. This map is accurate for what it is meant to depict. The Gauleiters were moguls of the German Empire at this time, and this map is simply focusing on the "domestic" side of the Nazi expansion. Hitler had the Nazi areas of control divided up into Germany proper (see this map), client nations (much of Eastern Europe), puppet states (like France), and subjegated territory (like in Russia). These are the devilish little details that get covered by history's broad strokes. This map is a political map as much as anything.

Interestingly enough, Germany actually utilized less of its civilian resources (percentage-wise) for war than the UK or the US did. This probably had as much to do with Hitler's method of maintaining power as it did with the corruption and inefficiency of the Gaue system.

As tokle pointed out, not many people actually sit down to think how the German Empire actually functioned. Not every human activity- in fact, not most human activity- was bent toward war. So, Hitler had to provide his people with radios, cinema, toothbrushes, soap... you know, the necessities And he had to provide his political supporters with sops from military conquest- land, slave labor, factories, mines, art, etc. So the annexed territory that this map shows is the area that was considered 'Germanized'.

Hitler clearly wanted Germany to dominate world politics (through force and intimidation), but it's never been indicated that he wanted the world to become a single giant German state... even though that might have eventually crossed his mind. It seems from writings and conversations that I've read that he envisioned 'Germany' extending from Paris to Moscow- and tokle's map indicates the height of Nazi progress toward that goal.

[Evil DIMwit]

All fair enough. Doesn't look like many people care about the mundane administration of Nazi Germany, but if you build it they'll come, I suppose. Better start thinking about gameplay features you might want to include, like bonuses or impassables.

[Raskholnikov]

I think this map is more accurate, in particular in showing the Protectorate Bohmen and Mahren.

http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/103/gdr.png

I agree this is a historically accurate map of Grossdeutschlands's inner administrative structure during the Second World War. Although Hitler wanted a Neu-Europa from Paris to Moscow linked by huge Autobahnen, this is what he saw as "Germany proper" the "Vaterland" of the German "Volk". Most of the remaining Eastern European territories he saw as "Lebensraum" to be governed by Germans, with the local populations to be treated as "second class" citizens to be used as cheap labour.

This is an idea of what "Neu-Europa" might have looked after a Nazi victory. All in the real od speculation, of course...

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/ ... rooppa.png

In terms of gameplay, this map does not really lend itself well to impaassables, with the exception of the moutains/forest bordering Sudetenland on the Niederschlesien, Bayern, Bayreuth borders; the mountains/forest bordering the Bayreuth / Mainfranken, Kurhessen border, and the Alps on the salzburg -Tyrol - Schwaben border

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http ... s%3Disch:1

I suggest therefore to use only these "impassables" and otherwise to divide the "Reich" into the following:

Hamburg, Berlin and Wien start as neutrals with +1 autodeployment;

Westdeutschland: Essen, Dusseldor, Koln, Moselland, Westmark, Baden (6)

Suddeutschland: Mainfranken, Franken, Bayreuth, Wurttenberg, Schwaben, Munchen (6)

Norddeutschland: Schleswig, Ost-Hanover, Weser, Sud-Hanover, Westfalennord, Westfalensud, Kurhessen (7)

Zentraldeutschland: Mecklenburg, Pommern, Magdeburg, Brandenburg, Halle, Sachsen, Niederschlesien, Oberschlesien (8)

Ostdeutschland: Ostpreussen, Danzig, Warthegau, Generalgouvernment (4)

Sud-ostdeutschland: Sudetenland, Bohmen, Oberdonau, Niederdonau, Salzburg, Steiermark, Karnten (7)

The names are keeping in line with Hitler's Gleichschaltung (equalization) wherein all old kingdom and principalities were dissolved and divided into Gauen to undermine local allegiances and focus all Nationalgeful ( national sentiment) on "Deutschland" itself.

So that's about 41 territories (incidentally, same number as the quenched Germany map, but actually historically accurate as opposed to the mostly made-up territorial divisions on that map), 6 "continents" and 3 self-deploying cities. I think it would work.

If required, on could break up the Protektorat into 2: Bohmen and Mahren, the Generalgouvernment into 5 (as above), and Ostpreussen into 2: Ostpreussen and Byalistok, giving Ostdeutschland 9 territories, Sud-ostdeutschland 8, and raising the total to 47.

Since th ideal number is 53, I would suggest the following:

Add Slovakei to Sud-ostdeutschland (not part of the Reich but just as controlled by Germany as the Generalgouvernment).

Add the cities, of Ulm, Munchen, Rastenburg, Koln (resistance points to Hitler - see Stauffenberg, Scholl, Adenauer) and Nurnberg (Nazi-Stadt) and make them neutral +1 autodeployment.

Now we can turn this into a German Resistance Movement game: if you gain control of Ulm, Munchen, Rastenburg, Koln PLUS Berlin, the Resistance wins and the Nazis fall; if you gain control of Berlin, Hamburg, Wien , Nurnberg, PLUS Munich, the Nazis win.

I think this would really illustrate better the internal dynamics of the Reich during the war, with the resistance to Hitler coming from the Wehrmacht, the White Rose non-violent student movment, and some Catholic politicians such as Adenauer.


Anyway, just an idea...

[theBastard]

Add Slovakei to Sud-ostdeutschland (not part of the Reich but just as controlled by Germany as the Generalgouvernment).

Slovakia was not Generalgouvernment, it was independent state. sure under German influence, but independent.

[Raskholnikov]

I didnt say it was Generalgoverment. But it certainly was not independent. Not even as much as Hungary or Romania. It was just as much controlled from Berlin as Generalgovernment and the Protectorate. So if we include Generalgouvernmment (not part of the Reich proper) we can also include Slovakei, as we did Bohmen and Mahren. This illustrates how, in fact, Germany swalloed up all of pre-war Chechoslovakia.

http://www.slovakia.org/history-ww2.htm

In any case, this is not essential to the gameplay. We dont have to include it if we dont think its a good idea.

[Evil DIMwit]

Since th ideal number is 53, I would suggest the following:

52 and 44 are also safe numbers.

[Raskholnikov]

Then lets pick 44 to be distributed at game start, plus the eight neutrals +1 autodeploys, minus Slovakia. That's a total of 52.

With some cool pics of the Scholls, Stauffenberg, etc. this could be a cool map illustrating some little known inner German realities during WWI: the German resistance to Hitler, the Greater Germany administrative structure, etc. And it would offend less those who might argue this is justifying Nazi conquests by presenting it as "just another" Germany map.

We could call it "Wiederstandsdeutschland" (The Germany of the Resistance) and include a brief story mentioning the White Rose, Adenauer and the Catholics, and Stauffenberg.

[theBastard]

I didnt say it was Generalgoverment.

but you want to add it to the map as Generalgouvernment, so where is difference?

But it certainly was not independent. Not even as much as Hungary or Romania. It was just as much controlled from Berlin as Generalgovernment and the Protectorate. So if we include Generalgouvernmment (not part of the Reich proper) we can also include Slovakei, as we did Bohmen and Mahren. This illustrates how, in fact, Germany swalloed up all of pre-war Chechoslovakia.

after Czechoslovakia was divided in Slovakia were regular votes to the parliament. Slovakia has its own government, it is not possible to compare with Protectorate of Czech and Moravia.

why you think that Romania or Hungary were more independent? so you think if they did not obey Hitler, he let them independent? each they step was accredited by Berlin...

In any case, this is not essential to the gameplay. We dont have to include it if we dont think its a good idea.

this is Melting Pot: Map Ideas, not Melting Pot: Gameplay Workshop...

[tokle]

Raskholnikov, I think your ideas are interesting. I like the idea of the resistance.

My computer has died, and I'm going away on holiday for a few weeks, so I won't be able to work on it for a while.

[Raskholnikov]

I love this map. Anything I can do to help just ask. It's a very little known part of German history and it really deserves a good map and a good story to go with it.

[Industrial Helix]

I love this map. Anything I can do to help just ask. It's a very little known part of German history and it really deserves a good map and a good story to go with it.

Very little known because it lasted for about 5 years...

[Raskholnikov]

So did the Resistance in France and eveyone knows about Vichy France, Occupied France, the Resistance, etc.

The France of 91 departments under Napoleon also lasted for less than a decade...

In any case, the addition of a Resistance to Nazis gameplay will, I think, add a new dimension and make people less resistant to it than just a simple administrative map of the Grossdeusche Reich which might be suspected of trying to "normalise" this version of Greater Germany.

[MarshalNey]

So did the Resistance in France and eveyone knows about Vichy France, Occupied France, the Resistance, etc.

The France of 91 departments under Napoleon also lasted for less than a decade...

In any case, the addition of a Resistance to Nazis gameplay will, I think, add a new dimension and make people less resistant to it than just a simple administrative map of the Grossdeusche Reich which might be suspected of trying to "normalise" this version of Greater Germany.

I agree- it would be awkward to be nominally playing the part of a Nazi kleptocrat.

As for the length of time that the 'resistance movements' lasted... significant plots date back at least as far as 1938, when the old Prussian officer corps decided that Hitler was no longer an asset but a liability (little did they realize that they weren't using him, but the other way around, eh?) After the July 1944 bomb plot, I get the impression that resistance movements were pretty effectively stamped out, unless you count half-hearted claims of amateur attempts on the part of high-ranking individuals like Albert Speer.

I bring up 1938, because I'm not sure that a lot of attention is paid to the serious possibility of a coup at that time. The Czechoslovakia concessions on the part of the Allies pretty much cemented Hitler's position and crushed his domestic opponents, who had claimed that he was insanely reckless and would cause a general war for which Germany was unprepared. It also laid the groundwork for undermining future coup attempts, as later plotters were all scared out of their minds that Hitler would pull another trick out of his hat.

[Raskholnikov]

The first major one was in Munich, in 1934. It almost succeeded.