The Communist Manifesto

[Metsfanmax]

The 10 claims of the communist manifesto (bolded are the ones we've partially or fully achieved in the U.S. Italicized ones are the things that are partially or fully done in other nations):

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

Number 4 is mostly irrelevant in today's economic and political structure. So basically, the capitalist countries of today, except for the point regarding abolition of property, are basically what Marx envisioned!

[Timminz]

Number 4 is mostly irrelevant in today's economic and political structure.

I disagree. What would be the results if the USA (for example) were to decree that any person (or corporation, with the legal rights of a person) emigrating to another nation were to immediately relinquish all property to the state? If the answer is anything other than "nothing at all", I would say that that shows a lack of irrelevancy.




double negative FTW!

[saxitoxin]

The 10 claims of the communist manifesto (bolded are the ones we've partially or fully achieved in the U.S. Italicized ones are the things that are partially or fully done in other nations):

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

Number 4 is mostly irrelevant in today's economic and political structure. So basically, the capitalist countries of today, except for the point regarding abolition of property, are basically what Marx envisioned!

You can't itemize or index the arching philosophy of Marx and Engels to a few pedestrian policy points. And, if you were, neither Marx, Engels, Luxemburg, or anyone else, would equate a corporatist State of the present with a people's State transitioning into a revolutionary non-state.

Communism is about re-evolving society into its constituent format. Not implementing a few points on a campaign platform. The root of Communist philosophy is a realization of the inherent necessity of the internationalist struggle. There is no such thing as socialism in one country.

The Revolution comes like thunder and comes globally, or is doomed to failure. You have much to learn.

[Metsfanmax]

You can't itemize or index the arching philosophy of Marx and Engels to a few pedestrian policy points.

Then it's amusing how they managed to do it anyway, isn't it?

And, if you were, neither Marx, Engels, Luxemburg, or anyone else, would equate a corporatist State of the present with a people's State transitioning into a revolutionary non-state.

All that proves is that Marx and Engels had a lack of imagination. They didn't realize that we could get what they envisioned, with an actual State.

Communism is about re-evolving society into its constituent format. Not implementing a few points on a campaign platform. The root of Communist philosophy is a realization of the inherent necessity of the internationalist struggle. There is no such thing as socialism in one country.

Sure, but we've achieved these things in basically every developed nation. Capitalism doesn't just live in the US.

The Revolution comes like thunder and comes globally, or is doomed to failure. You have much to learn.

I think communists get off on the idea of revolution, and don't really think much about what would happen afterward.

[Metsfanmax]

Number 4 is mostly irrelevant in today's economic and political structure.

I disagree. What would be the results if the USA (for example) were to decree that any person (or corporation, with the legal rights of a person) emigrating to another nation were to immediately relinquish all property to the state? If the answer is anything other than "nothing at all", I would say that that shows a lack of irrelevancy.




double negative FTW!

Well, I think people emigrated from countries for very different reasons in the 1800s. Obviously we don't really have "rebels" in modern democratic societies, for example.

[saxitoxin]

Mets, here's Communism 101 for you:

1. A cabal currently controls the workers of the world.

2. The cabal impose this control through three devices: superstition (organized religion), nationalism (the creation of nation-states, which are artificial constructs) and violence (the police).

3. Superstition fools the people into compliance. If that fails, wars can be engineered between the cooperative plutocrats of token independent nations to bleed-out the excess workers. Finally, if that fails, the police are unleashed to shoot everyone and beat them into submission.

4. The worker's revolution can only succeed if the three control mechanisms are smashed: organized religion, independent nation-states and centralized police.

5. Unfortunately, after hundreds of years of oppression, the people are so brainwashed into believing what they have been told that many of them may resist their own liberation. For that reason a Vanguard must be established. The Vanguard is the Communist Party which is ideologically self-convinced of the correctness of socialism. The Vanguard, on a transitional and emergency basis, establishes a Dictatorship of the Proletariat - it is a trustee curating the nation until the people have been detoxed from capitalism. Once this has occurred the State itself can be smashed and the people live in decentralized, self-governing and cooperative independent polities, enjoying freedom of expression, and a robust standard of living borne about through a total realization of the fruits of their own labor.

The Communist struggle is inseparable with internationalism. An Anarcho-Communist vision can not succeed if even one territory of capitalist parasitism remains. We already saw what happened when that was tried.

Communism defines itself by the control of capital. Standards of living, social welfare programs - none of that matters. Who controls the capital? The proletariat, the bourgeois or the elite? In the west at present - without exception - it is the elite. Even nationalized industries remain under the control of the elite as the elite control the State itself.

[saxitoxin]

The great social experiment that occurred in eastern Europe during the 20th century was one of the most startling and incredible things the world has ever seen.

You can disagree with the methodology or leadership of individual nations of the so-called eastern block but, regardless of that, you had - for the first time in world history - organized armed forces standing in opposition to the cabal that has controlled the world since one fateful afternoon in Cornello dei Tasso 400 years ago.

You simply cannot imagine the realities and illumination to which these states became privy; illuminations which utterly and completely verified and validated Marxist theories about the coordinated control and manipulation of capital that had been occurring throughout the world for the preceding 400 years.

At the end you saw an inexplicable collapse - almost overnight - of this liberated territory. No time ever on Earth has such a dramatic collapse occurred within a space of months. It was the end-game in a 40-year program of sabotage that finally sprouted. However, even the wickedness of the Insect was too stupid to plan for the inevitable. The revolution was too important to risk defeat. Would the Vanguard be so dull not to take steps - using only the wealth and power to which an independent state has access - to ensure survival if the unthinkable happened? Of course not. The revolution has moved now just to a different phase and a different period of the struggle.

[ViperOverLord]

The 10 claims of the communist manifesto (bolded are the ones we've partially or fully achieved in the U.S. Italicized ones are the things that are partially or fully done in other nations):

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

Number 4 is mostly irrelevant in today's economic and political structure. So basically, the capitalist countries of today, except for the point regarding abolition of property, are basically what Marx envisioned!

You can't itemize or index the arching philosophy of Marx and Engels to a few pedestrian policy points. And, if you were, neither Marx, Engels, Luxemburg, or anyone else, would equate a corporatist State of the present with a people's State transitioning into a revolutionary non-state.

Communism is about re-evolving society into its constituent format. Not implementing a few points on a campaign platform. The root of Communist philosophy is a realization of the inherent necessity of the internationalist struggle. There is no such thing as socialism in one country.

The Revolution comes like thunder and comes globally, or is doomed to failure. You have much to learn.

Marx, Engels, corpororitist. Yes, yes. Yes indeed. Pedestrian swill that merely appeals to the tastless tastes of the bourgeois. Oh Margaret. Won't you be a dear and grab me some coffee while I correct the mass international instability that exists through swift compulsory means of epic and unprecedented proportions. Oh and two lumps of sugar, not three this time.

"The Revolution comes like thunder and comes globally, or is doomed to failure. You have much to learn." So to recap, you're saying that the USSR (and every other communist country) failed because of the pesky success/interference of Western nations?

[InkL0sed]

In other words, the Communist Revolution may come like thunder, but capitalism comes like lightning.

pwnt

[jbrettlip]

$5 hasn't happened. Yes there is a Central Bank, and yes the gov is very involved in credit, but an exclusive monopoly on credit hasn't occurred.

[BigBallinStalin]

The Revolution comes like thunder and comes globally, or is doomed to failure. You have much to learn.

I think communists get off on the idea of revolution, and don't really think much about what would happen afterward.

The Cubans took it pretty seriously... so did the Russians. They weren't just fucking around; they actually unloaded their seaborne men into various countries--usually in between borders.

The results varied from place to place. I think it depended on where one unloaded, the timing, and the length of activity--whether it be direct or indirect pressure, and other even more subtle means.

[AlgyTaylor]

I love the way Merkins [americans] have a polarised view of politics - good (capitaliskm) and evil (communism)

Ever thought that perhaps some things (eg education, health) are better served by the state - giving everyone a sporting chance of bettering themselves regardless of the wealth of their parents - and some things by the individual (production of goods, commerce)?

You are allowed to like things from both, you know. Silly Merkins.

Then, check this out, you can even have bits of both IN THE SAME AREA - eg transport can be privately owned but regulated by he state to ensure that everyone has access to it, say by offering up funding to serve rural communities, giving those people a bit more freedom of movement and soforth.

Yet all you [pointing at the Republican types in particular] can think about is how by doigg that you're suddenly going to start speaking Russian or something.

[ViperOverLord]

I love the way Merkins [americans] have a polarised view of politics - good (capitaliskm) and evil (communism)

Ever thought that perhaps some things (eg education, health) are better served by the state - giving everyone a sporting chance of bettering themselves regardless of the wealth of their parents - and some things by the individual (production of goods, commerce)?

You are allowed to like things from both, you know. Silly Merkins.

Then, check this out, you can even have bits of both IN THE SAME AREA - eg transport can be privately owned but regulated by he state to ensure that everyone has access to it, say by offering up funding to serve rural communities, giving those people a bit more freedom of movement and soforth.

Yet all you [pointing at the Republican types in particular] can think about is how by doigg that you're suddenly going to start speaking Russian or something.

Anybody that has taken college level economics classes, know full well that capitalism has proven itself time and time again. Socialism is great in principle but you should not be so naive as to think that the same greed that drives people in a capitalist system, would not also drive people in a socialist system. The difference is that capitalism rewards work and keeps incentive at a maximum, thereby being the optimal system for any country.

Don't speak down to us on the basis that we have some sort of unfounded silly belief. Your contempt for us 'greedy, arrogant, simple minded' Merikans does nothing to further your fallacious point.

All's your doing is playing Phil Donahue to my Milton Friedman. The record of history is absolutely crystal clear regarding capitalism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A

[Phatscotty]

The 10 claims of the communist manifesto (bolded are the ones we've partially or fully achieved in the U.S. Italicized ones are the things that are partially or fully done in other nations):

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

Number 4 is mostly irrelevant in today's economic and political structure. So basically, the capitalist countries of today, except for the point regarding abolition of property, are basically what Marx envisioned!

nice post

[saxitoxin]

I love the way Merkins [americans] have a polarised view of politics - good (capitaliskm) and evil (communism)

Ever thought that perhaps some things (eg education, health) are better served by the state - giving everyone a sporting chance of bettering themselves regardless of the wealth of their parents - and some things by the individual (production of goods, commerce)?

You are allowed to like things from both, you know. Silly Merkins.

Then, check this out, you can even have bits of both IN THE SAME AREA - eg transport can be privately owned but regulated by he state to ensure that everyone has access to it, say by offering up funding to serve rural communities, giving those people a bit more freedom of movement and soforth.

Yet all you [pointing at the Republican types in particular] can think about is how by doigg that you're suddenly going to start speaking Russian or something.

Jesus Christ, we were having a nice conversation about the global Dadaist revolution and then one of the cattle car from the EU North Sea Province has to galumph in here and make it all about America. Seriously, one of you Americans needs to apply for an anti-stalking order against these people. They really are obsessed. It's starting to get pathetic.

We could have a thread about your favorite flavor of ice cream and one of these succubi would show up ranting about how they've been wronged by America for one reason or the other.

I've said it before, the Japanese got it 100% spot-on in this episode of Hetalia when they parody the relationship of Britain to the US:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zT8kvtKJxc

Waaaa! You dummy! Dummy, dummy, America! Waaaa!

[saxitoxin]

$5 hasn't happened. Yes there is a Central Bank, and yes the gov is very involved in credit, but an exclusive monopoly on credit hasn't occurred.

That's an excellent point.

And as far as the U.S. reserve bank goes, six of the nine directors of each regional reserve bank (the Class A and Class B chairs) in the U.S. are nominated and elected by the presidents of the private banks chartered in each region. It's hard to define that as "people's control."

(This aside from the fact that the OP selected 1 page in a 100+ page treatise to summarize an entire philosophy.)

[jbrettlip]

#9 also hasn't happened, otherwise people would be bussed out of NYC and into WY and the Dakota's. I believe the exact opposite has occurred.

[Metsfanmax]

(This aside from the fact that the OP selected 1 page in a 100+ page treatise to summarize an entire philosophy.)

Are you implying that this list is somehow incomplete or inaccurate?

[SultanOfSurreal]

$5 hasn't happened. Yes there is a Central Bank, and yes the gov is very involved in credit, but an exclusive monopoly on credit hasn't occurred.

That's an excellent point.

And as far as the U.S. reserve bank goes, six of the nine directors of each regional reserve bank (the Class A and Class B chairs) in the U.S. are nominated and elected by the presidents of the private banks chartered in each region. It's hard to define that as "people's control."

(This aside from the fact that the OP selected 1 page in a 100+ page treatise to summarize an entire philosophy.)

the communist manifesto is not nearly that long. in fact it's designed to be as short as possible. a quick reader could finish it in half an hour. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto

[Phatscotty]

$5 hasn't happened. Yes there is a Central Bank, and yes the gov is very involved in credit, but an exclusive monopoly on credit hasn't occurred.

That's an excellent point.

And as far as the U.S. reserve bank goes, six of the nine directors of each regional reserve bank (the Class A and Class B chairs) in the U.S. are nominated and elected by the presidents of the private banks chartered in each region. It's hard to define that as "people's control."

(This aside from the fact that the OP selected 1 page in a 100+ page treatise to summarize an entire philosophy.)

the communist manifesto is not nearly that long. in fact it's designed to be as short as possible. a quick reader could finish it in half an hour. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto

as expected. Does it have color pictures as well?

[SultanOfSurreal]

$5 hasn't happened. Yes there is a Central Bank, and yes the gov is very involved in credit, but an exclusive monopoly on credit hasn't occurred.

That's an excellent point.

And as far as the U.S. reserve bank goes, six of the nine directors of each regional reserve bank (the Class A and Class B chairs) in the U.S. are nominated and elected by the presidents of the private banks chartered in each region. It's hard to define that as "people's control."

(This aside from the fact that the OP selected 1 page in a 100+ page treatise to summarize an entire philosophy.)

the communist manifesto is not nearly that long. in fact it's designed to be as short as possible. a quick reader could finish it in half an hour. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto

as expected. Does it have color pictures as well?

oh no my monocle

[saxitoxin]

(This aside from the fact that the OP selected 1 page in a 100+ page treatise to summarize an entire philosophy.)

the communist manifesto is not nearly that long. in fact it's designed to be as short as possible. a quick reader could finish it in half an hour.

Don't presume to lecture me or wave about a land-grant university degree like it's the Emerald Tablet of Hermes. The last thing I need is the sophistication of some doltish Yankee whose avatar is one of the world's greatest war criminals. The edition of TCM I have in front of me, written in the original German, is 101 numbered pages.


Now, that said, it includes an introduction by Walter Ulbricht and the discussion correspondence of Marx and Engels, so I imagine if one wanted to reach new heights of pedantry you could raise this as an issue, as you have.

(This aside from the fact that the OP selected 1 page in a 100+ page treatise to summarize an entire philosophy.)

Are you implying that this list is somehow incomplete or inaccurate?

What I'm implying is that reading the back cover of Michio Kaku's last book at Barnes & Noble while waiting in the check-out line to pay for Masturbation for Dummies doesn't make you an expert in theoretical physics.

Man, The Club is really attracting some dullards lately.

[Metsfanmax]

What I'm implying is that reading the back cover of Michio Kaku's last book at Barnes & Noble while waiting in the check-out line to pay for Masturbation for Dummies doesn't make you an expert in theoretical physics.

Man, The Club is really attracting some dullards lately.

That's a great deflection point, but doesn't address my question. If those 10 points are an accurate summarization of what Marx envisioned the communist "country" to be, then I don't need to be an "expert," because the hard work has already been done for me. All I need to do is determine whether the qualifications have been fulfilled. That does not require the Ph.D. in socio-economic systems that you so obviously have earned.

Sounds like you're mad 'cause Marx is easy to understand ;P

[saxitoxin]

What I'm implying is that reading the back cover of Michio Kaku's last book at Barnes & Noble while waiting in the check-out line to pay for Masturbation for Dummies doesn't make you an expert in theoretical physics.

Man, The Club is really attracting some dullards lately.

That's a great deflection point, but doesn't address my question. If those 10 points are an accurate summarization of what Marx envisioned the communist "country" to be, then I don't need to be an "expert," because the hard work has already been done for me. All I need to do is determine whether the qualifications have been fulfilled. That does not require the Ph.D. in socio-economic systems that you so obviously have earned.

silence

[InkL0sed]

I'm a really pretentious and erudite professor! You can tell because I'm so snobby and dismissive! By the way, I'm committing the fallacy of Argument from Authority, just for irony's sake. It makes my ridiculous caricature more believable!