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do you really think that the pope is online playing on a shoddy version of the risk board he grew up with a kid, and then when his 4 freemium games are played, he's straight onto bumpage to troll the bejesus out of any fucktards that will listen / read / argue?Maugena wrote:If you consider yourself to be very religious...
...and have read the cc bumpage forum

Pedronicus wrote:get that avatar to ms paint and stick a big brown pipe in his mouth.
I kind of think that the true answer is "mommy and daddy said so". It's pretty obvious that if a very religious person in one place had been raised somewhere else, that they would be the religion of that place. When a person grows up in a town where everyone is a certain religion, and then he becomes that religion, its stupid to say that he picked it and knows its right. So I think its more a matter of having been told something and never being bright enough to ask any questions in life.heavycola wrote:The answers to these questions are far too dependent on reasonable thought for people who deem themselves 'very religious'. However, that has never stopped them sounding off before.
eg:
'What is the driving force behind your current beliefs?'
honest answer: 'Because I am terrified of death and the insignificance of my own existence, and because i find it much easier to outsource my morality to an invisible hebrew desert god from thousands of years ago rather than think things through myself.'
given answer: 'god's love.'
You are once again arguing that because people were crazy enough to be martyred that they should be trusted. Its an insane argument in and of itself. People die for lies or fabrications or constructs of their imaginations all the time. In fact, the more likely they are to such insane beliefs, the more likely they are likely to die for them. You have mistakenly decided that because these people laid down their lives, that they must have been telling the truth, when more sane, rational people realize that they were absolutely insane in the first place, and everything they had to say becomes suspect.Lionz wrote:It might be that neither option or whatever applies to me Maugena, but...
Beliefs that are driven by logic and reason? How many martys were there in the first century? Maybe there are millions who would willingly die for a lie, but who willingly and knowlingly dies for a lie and even a lie that promotes being honest in the first place?
Yes, yes, you go in box number 14.Lionz wrote:
George,
You might say I was raised in a new age/native american spirituality/far eastern philosophy type family. I even got into witchcraft back in the day and am not sure if I've walked into a church building ten times perhaps. Is there a neat little box that I personally fit in, iyo?
Why is christianity more correct than islam?what the hell would Muslim dudes flying a plane into a building and commiting suicide because they thought a book was true have to do with disciples of Him becoming martyrs after Personally seeing Him perform miracles and after Personally seeing Him risen from the dead?

Or... perhaps the writers of the gospels, years later and years after jesus' death, referred back to those prophecies.Lionz wrote: If Daniel 9:24-27 and Isaiah 53 do not refer to Christ, then who they refer to?
Well, how about followers of the egyptian god Horus? He was born to a virgin, and his birth was announced by a star; his mother was called Meri; he had twelve disciples; he raised his father, Osiris (l-azarus...) from the grave; he walked on water, cast out demons and healed the sick; and he was crucified, descended into hell and rose again after three days.who thinks they saw a blind person see or a crippled person walk or a dead person alive without having actually done so?

What evidence?how about we weigh evidence together?
Who knows the motives of people who died centuries ago? Perhaps the bible is a work of fiction? It only takes one liar, and others to believe him, and the others don't necessarily have to be liars to repeat a lie they believe to be true.but were disciples of Him willing to tell lies and even willing to die for those lies in order to support a religious worldview that's against lying at it's very core in the first place?
Certainly, but this does not mean those beliefs were true. They could have been mistaken, misguided or just plain crazy.Does it not seem apparent that quite a number of folks believed they saw supernatural miracles in the first century?
You know how rumours are born?Minds might be able to play tricks on people, but who thinks they saw a blind person see or a crippled person walk or a dead person alive without having actually done so?
The facts about Nero and his reign are very ambiguous and of questionable credibility. Most if not all historical accounts about Nero were written by his enemies who might have had ulterior motives to portray him in a bad light.Also, if He had enough followers by 64 CE for Nero to have blamed a 64 CE Italian Peninsula fire on followers of Him, what should that suggest to us?
It is called peer pressure. Do you not understand psychology of the masses? Also, again, we do not and can not know the motives of people who have been dead for centuries.Did guys from Judaea and Galilee somehow convince hundreds of thousands of gentiles living in Asia Minor and beyond to become Christians simply by telling them something was a certain way?
People might associate Greeks with intellect, but does it follow that all Greeks are intelligent?Have Greeks not been infamous for an aura of intellectual superiority?
Are you saying this kind of thing doesn't happen?Have you ever been convinced to abandoned one religion and become member of another as a result of someone knocking on your door and talking to you?

How about any scientifically verifiable evidence, about anything you claim, instead of using the bible as "evidence"? Just because a lot of people say something doesn't make it true. A few hundred years ago the majority of people would have said the Earth is definitely flat. Yet, they were mistaken.How about evidence in general? What do you want to determine the veracity of?
Who knows? The point is there's no reliable evidence either way. We know bits and pieces of the general events back then, but even the existence of Jesus, as such as he was portrayed in the Bible, cannot be verified.You might bring up things that are not simply a matter of whether or not there was one liar. There was what? No Christian on earth in 30 CE and hundreds of thousands or something by 64 CE? What happened between then?
Ah, the matrix argument. It's sort of flawed logic but what the hey, I'll go along with it.Maybe there is no honest report about Nero and no honest historical document ever written about anything for all I know, but maybe we're even living in a Matrix imagining stuff for all I know and we should draw a line somewhere and shouldn't simply choose to believe something if it helps support what we already believe.
So what were you going to say?That might be easier said that done for you and me and everyone though. It might be that pride and auras of intellectial superiority in people can make it harder to convince them of things, but I wasn't meaning to say Greeks were intelligent and came across wrong maybe.
I don't know. Do you? If so, how?I'm not saying it's the case that there's never been a single person convinced to abandoned one religion and become member of another as a result of someone knocking on their door and talking to them, but how many folks were convinced by travelling Jews to become Christians in the first century?
So what if they are? I don't know what is said in those verses, but it's irrelevant - I'm not saying that they can't be true. It is possible. But it is also possible that they aren't. And we don't know are they or not, and again we are at the point where it becomes a matter of personal belief.What if Daniel 9:24-27 and Isaiah 53 are true and they weren't written by someone who was mistaken or misguided or plain crazy?

Nobody can learn all the information in the world. However, you do not need to count all the stars in the sky to know there are lots of them.I might have never read an original of anything in there, but what do you want in terms of scientifically verifiable evidence? Want evidence for Eden events or nephilim or the flood or Sodom or the Exodus crossing or David or Yahushua or? Even if you've convinced yourself there's not evidence for something, can you honestly claim there's no evidence for something without having seen everything there is to see?
Faith, by definition, does not require evidence. Knowledge on the other hand does. If you want to believe something to be true without being able to prove it so, you are doing do out of faith, not out of knowledge.I might not really need evidence for anything, but who should believe something simply out of a desire to do so even if it can seem cool for someone to say they have faith without a need for evidence? And consider a version of 1 Peter 3:15?
Yes, there are historical figures who have almost certainly lived. However, the further back in time you go, the less is known of the events, simply because information of those times has not been preserved very well. If we take ancient romans for example, or egyptians, we know quite accurately how large their empires were at what year, we know approximately the years of birth and death of political leaders, and when they ruled, and what they did. We do not know the names of every egyptian slave from the year 1528 BCE, nor do we know what Julius Caesar had for breakfast 3 weeks before his 15th birthday.Is there anyone who lived over a thousand years ago who has an existance that can be verified in your opinion and if there's no solid evidence for a two thousand plus year old event, then what are we to believe?
Evidence. I don't think it can ever be proven though, unless a time machine or similar is invented.What would it take for you to believe that He walked on earth and healed people and rose from the dead?
I must admit it would be pretty cool.How cool would it be to time travel back in a dream state and interact with stuff without changing anything permanently?
How do you know the christians didn't set those fires? If I recall correctly, it has been theorized that this may be the case. However there's no real evidence either way.I asked one or more question concerning Greek self-perceived intellectual superiority that was meant to hint at the unlikelihood of some evangelistic first century Jews convincing first century Greeks to drop polytheistic religion in order to worship a Jew instead without something miraculous being involved maybe, but it might be that I'm not sure what I meant now or what a Greek has perceived and it might be that this is a run-on sentence that stuff is said wrong in. I don't know how many folks were convinced by travelling Jews to become Christians in the first century or even if the first century existed in reality maybe, but what does evidence suggest if it's claimed that Nero blamed the fire on followers of Him?
Well, if we want to tread in the realm of philosophy... then we don't know anything. However I'd say we can reasonably assume some things, that have been observed by ourselves or other people that we can reasonably assume to be telling the truth. However, common sense must be applied, and if there is something we can't know the answer for, it is up to us to decide what we believe the answer to be, but also we must remember that such a belief is not certain and can prove to be false in the long run. We must also remember that a belief is only that and not present it as fact to other people.A very fine last section by you that I really appreciate? We might have a number of things in common. What do we really know when it comes down to it?

Well, if we are gospel writers years after JC's death trying to drum up support, then we check our scripture and we make sure that our version of events includes as much 'fulfilled prophecy' as possible. It's called 'creative hindsight'. Well it is in my house, and it's a barrel of laughs here I can tell you.Lionz wrote:Heavy,
Why would Gospel writers not refer back to Old Testament prophecy?
And do you have a single pre-1990 source for anything in the second part? Whether you do or not, if there was prophecy about Him from for hundreds of years before the first century and there were angelic beings against Him who were aware of it hundreds of years before the first century, should it not make sense if some of them tried to mock that and even tried to kill off Hebrew males at one or more point in history? If there is 2,000 plus year old scripture concerning Yahushua that has to do with Name and family line and place of birth and places of growing up and being betrayed for certain amount of money and being betrayed by a friend and being abandoned by friends and way of death and timing of death and having garments parted and being offered vinegar and sky being darkened during day and being resurrected and timing between death and resurrection and more, what can we do to explain it?

Nice try, but I don't think the conspiracy theory holds any water. Let's try an easier explanation; truth is often stranger than fiction. If you want a good example of this, compare the Lincoln and Kennedy assassinations.heavycola wrote:Well, if we are gospel writers years after JC's death trying to drum up support, then we check our scripture and we make sure that our version of events includes as much 'fulfilled prophecy' as possible. It's called 'creative hindsight'. Well it is in my house, and it's a barrel of laughs here I can tell you.
