Iberia [Quenched]

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:04 am

No, this one sucks, go back to the last one.

boberz · Post by **boberz** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:38 am

i would rather not have the flags looks tacky

Wisse · Post by **Wisse** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:01 am

Wisse wrote:mayby you can give the rivers the same texture as the sea?

Gmenwillstomp · Post by **Gmenwillstomp** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:29 am

Stop with all this color, wha wha crap. The map is excellent, publish it.

steve monkey · Post by **steve monkey** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:13 pm

This map is shaping up to be an excellent one, particularly in terms of its playability. A few changes that I recommend.
Remove the flags. Since your map is of a geographical region rather than one of states, the flags are unecessary and invalid (since not all of Spain is in Iberia). Alternatively, the catalan, galician and basque flags should also be added; however, this would be ridiculously cluttered so probably better off without any flags.
I think that the region should be spelled Catalunya for authenticity, also Catalan spellings should be used for the territories in Catalunya.
I also think that the Basque region should be renamed Euskadi out of respect for the peoples there.
These things may seem picky, but if you dont know Spain that well then you'll probably be unfamiliar with the complex multi national make up of the country.

Bad Speler · Post by **Bad Speler** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:55 pm

ok, removed the flags, added slight texture to the rivers and altered the granada almeria a bit to make it clearer, forgot to in the last update. Ive changed Catalunya to catalan language, but couldnt find Lerida, barcelona, Tarragona catalan names, ill assume there the same as in spanish. I forgot to rename basque country/vizcaya.

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:51 pm

Okay, so lets see:

I'm liking the overall look and feel you have going. I think the texture is right, and the sea blends well.

Few things...:

I've got a few concerns about the legend, and the readability of everything. It'd be nice we could have some sort of back drop, but I realize there isn't much room, and it really might just clutter everything. Perhaps some sort of blur behind the letters and words could make it easier to read (especially Cata). Hm, it bothers me, but not so much.

The rivers, are looking better. Still fix the ends a little bit more, namely the one near Faro, Lisboa, Vizcaya...where they go into the ocean. It seems a little black underlay is still there. Blend a little more, and I think you've got those rivers done nicely!

And from the rivers, we get to the bridges. I look at them, and look at them more, and I hate them.

They don't seem to fit with the color scheme you've got going, or the texture feel. Also, to my eyes, they barely look like bridges. Perhaps some more experimentation can be done, eh?

And from the rivers...to the mountains! Someone suggested having not all of them point the same direction (or maybe that was me, I can't recall now). But I'd still look into that, perhaps even play with the colors slightly as Keyogi suggested.

Also might want to make the NON-border between Andorra and Girona a little clearer, as it's close, and they almost touch.

And maybe consider boosting the country divison lines slightly higher...hm, but maybe not. That might clutter the names too much with more black...Anyways!

--Andy

Bad Speler · Post by **Bad Speler** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:12 pm

Ive varied where the peaks are, changed the bridges, fixed up the rivers, and renamed vizcaya Euskadi. I am however unable to place a slight blur around the legend because of the limitations of inkscape.

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:39 pm

That map suddenly went up on my play-o-meter (even though I'm from spain I despised the other map)

steve monkey · Post by **steve monkey** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:31 am

Thanks for the changes. The Catalan name for Lerida is Lleida.

Lapo · Post by **Lapo** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:23 am

I think it's better to use portugese and spanish names only.
If you are going to use other languages you should change Alicante for Alacant and Orense for Ourense.

Bad Speler · Post by **Bad Speler** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:42 pm

point taken i will see what other people think about this befor i make more name changes.

Ruben Cassar · Post by **Ruben Cassar** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:45 pm

Spanish and Portuguese only. Catalan and Basque are regional languages.

steve monkey · Post by **steve monkey** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:08 pm

This is not a map of Spain and Portugal, it is a map of Iberia, which is a geographical not a political entity. It would therefore be out of keeping with the map to make all the place names Spanish or Portugese only. One of the features of Iberia which makes it so distinct within Europe, is the diversity of the peoples who live there. To ignore this fact is to ignore the history and present reality of the region. All the nations' languages should be used in their proper context; ie Catalan names in Catalunya, Portugese names in Portugal, Basque names in the Basque Country, Galician names in Galicia and Castillian (Spanish) names in the non-autonomous regions of Spain.

Ruben Cassar · Post by **Ruben Cassar** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:14 pm

steve monkey wrote:This is not a map of Spain and Portugal, it is a map of Iberia, which is a geographical not a political entity. It would therefore be out of keeping with the map to make all the place names Spanish or Portugese only. One of the features of Iberia which makes it so distinct within Europe, is the diversity of the peoples who live there. To ignore this fact is to ignore the history and present reality of the region. All the nations' languages should be used in their proper context; ie Catalan names in Catalunya, Portugese names in Portugal, Basque names in the Basque Country, Galician names in Galicia and Castillian (Spanish) names in the non-autonomous regions of Spain.

So why wasn't that applied to other maps? The British Isles map should have names in Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Cymru or whatever they call it for example. Every region in Europe has dialects, some more important than others like Catalan which is used in the Catalonia region, but at the end of the day Spanish is the language of all of Spain and the official language of the whole nation.

steve monkey · Post by **steve monkey** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:26 pm

It wasn't applied to other maps because it probably wasnt considered at the time, that in and of itself isnt reason for it not to occur with the Iberia map. Secondly, the language question is considerably more important in Spain than in the UK. (In Scotland for example noone speaks Scots, it's a dead language). If I can compare Spain to a better example, I would choose Switzerland, where the federal structure of the state means that the cantons vary between French, German and Italian speaking.
I am not arguing for the usage of dialects for naming purposes on maps, simply that in a geographical region the national languages be used therein.
Given these points and the ones I raised earlier, I dont understand your ambivelance to having the territories named in their correct languages.

Ruben Cassar · Post by **Ruben Cassar** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:33 pm

steve monkey wrote:It wasn't applied to other maps because it probably wasnt considered at the time, that in and of itself isnt reason for it not to occur with the Iberia map. Secondly, the language question is considerably more important in Spain than in the UK. (In Scotland for example noone speaks Scots, it's a dead language). If I can compare Spain to a better example, I would choose Switzerland, where the federal structure of the state means that the cantons vary between French, German and Italian speaking.
I am not arguing for the usage of dialects for naming purposes on maps, simply that in a geographical region the national languages be used therein.
Given these points and the ones I raised earlier, I dont understand your ambivelance to having the territories named in their correct languages.

If I remember well around 60,000 people in Scotland speak Gaelic. In Switzerland it is different. Switzerland is a trilingual state with German, French and Italian being official languages of the country. In Spain the only official language is Spanish. The others are only used regionally and do not have that status and Spanish is official in those regions alongside the other dialect.

Anyway I guess it is just a matter of opinion. I want Spanish to be used while you do not, that is all there is to it really. Ultimately the map maker will have to decide according to his views or to what the majority say.

steve monkey · Post by **steve monkey** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:09 pm

I take your point about Gaelic, I really didn't know there were that number of speakers of it in Scotland.
It's been fun debating with you Ruben and I agree with you - we are going to disagree on this matter.
I hope Bad Speler, that you'll consider the points I've raised, and once again, that's a really nice map you've created there. I look forward to playing on it.

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:22 pm

steve monkey wrote:This is not a map of Spain and Portugal, it is a map of Iberia, which is a geographical not a political entity. It would therefore be out of keeping with the map to make all the place names Spanish or Portugese only. One of the features of Iberia which makes it so distinct within Europe, is the diversity of the peoples who live there. To ignore this fact is to ignore the history and present reality of the region. All the nations' languages should be used in their proper context; ie Catalan names in Catalunya, Portugese names in Portugal, Basque names in the Basque Country, Galician names in Galicia and Castillian (Spanish) names in the non-autonomous regions of Spain.

I would call the territories what the natives call it.

Ruben Cassar · Post by **Ruben Cassar** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:31 pm

steve monkey wrote:I take your point about Gaelic, I really didn't know there were that number of speakers of it in Scotland.
It's been fun debating with you Ruben and I agree with you - we are going to disagree on this matter.
I hope Bad Speler, that you'll consider the points I've raised, and once again, that's a really nice map you've created there. I look forward to playing on it.

I believe in Wales there are many more that actually speak Gaelic. I will check about that for you. Still everyone knows how to speak English which is the lingua franca if you want to call it such for Britain and Ireland. I think Spain is in a similar situation although not the same of course...

Edit: From a quick check on the net there are apparently over 600,000 people in Wales who speak Welsh. Not bad out of a population of around 3 million.

Lapo · Post by **Lapo** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:01 pm

If the names are going to be in other languages you should change Galicia for Galiza. I forgot it in my last post.

I think that names in regional languages can be confusing for non-spanish players or players than just don't know much about spain.
Also you should be careful because you should change more names, not only in Galicia or Cataluña, as there are some other regions where different languages are spoken.

Bad Speler · Post by **Bad Speler** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:10 pm

I think I should just use Spanish and Portuguese names, as if i were to use regional names, it would be confusing as Lapo said, and it would be difficult to tell when a language is not spoken enough to use it as a regional languaga.

Bad Speler · Post by **Bad Speler** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:28 pm

Reverted to spanish names

steve monkey · Post by **steve monkey** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:56 am

Lapo, I dont see why having names in their original languages would be confusing. How would it confuse players for example, to have Lerida named in the Catalan as Lleida?
Bad Speler, obviously it's your map, but I am asking you to reconsider your decision to revert names back to their Castillian (Spanish) forms.
1. Your map is not one of Spain, it is one of Iberia, which is a geographical not a political area. Consequently you should use the names appropriate to the official languages of the regions - (Portugese for Portugal, Basque fot the Basque Country/Euskadi, Catalan for Catalunya and Andorra, Galician for Galicia and Castillian/Spanish for all other parts of Spain).
2. The state language of Andorra is Catalan, therefore Catalan should be included on this map the same as Spanish and Portugese.
3. Catalan, Galician and Basque are not dialects, they are officially recognised languages. Catalan has over 6 million speakers, making it more widelyu spoken than either Danish or Norwegian (and we even have a sperate language forum for Norwgians here on cc!).
4. For over 40 years Spain was ruled as a fascist dictatorship in which Basque, Galician and Catalan were suppressed. People have been imprisoned, arrested, tortured and sometimes even killed over this matter. Language is an important social and political issue in modern Spain. The constitution introduced during Spain's transition to democracy made these languages official and to be accorded the same rights as Castellano (Spanish). The only people in Spain who want only Spanish to be used are the Francistas (fascists).
This isn't meant to be a lecture, but I do feel strongly about this. My girlfriend is a Catalan and I'm over there regularly.
The changes I'm requesting will not affect the gameplay or aesthetics of the map, but will be consistent with the maps theme and respectful towards the peoples, history and cultures of Iberia.
Thanks for reading.

boberz · Post by **boberz** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:55 am

it should be in english...

because reginol names too confusing many regions have unofficial languages/different spellings from each other

because national names are causing such a debate

(i think national names but english might solve the argument