[Abandoned] - Gallipoli

[Industrial Helix]

Very busy with work lately but I've got some time. I'll address the concerns this week.

[ender516]

Sad to think that MarshalNey may be right about this being a forgotten war, but I don't think it is true in Commonwealth countries. As he said, this battle was defining for the ANZAC forces, and Canada will never (I hope) forget Vimy Ridge. (Now there is a battle worthy of a map. I wish I had the skills to do it proud. Maybe someday.)

[Industrial Helix]

Hmm... what do you guys think of beaches assaulting both Landing craft AND battleships?

One option would be to make the landing craft that connect to battleships start at a neutral 1 so there isn't any unnecessary conflict between ships and landing crafts.

As for the dardenelles, i hear your point Marshal and I think it could use some simplification. I'm considering dropping a number of the landing craft in favor of putting open deployment positions on the mainland. I expect players are going to sit and stack until they can take out an adjacent battleship and landing craft and then solidify a beach head area with little opposition from the turks. This might be desirable though, I'm undecided.

I'm trying to work out how the games are going to likely play out and then figure out if it will even near resemble the battle. Thoughts?

Another consideration that I am taking is whether the mess in narrows and dardenelles is even necessary. Shouldn't this map focus strictly on the land battle with naval power taking a secondary roll to land maneuvers. Thoughts?

Click image to enlarge.

[MarshalNey]

Another consideration that I am taking is whether the mess in narrows and dardenelles is even necessary. Shouldn't this map focus strictly on the land battle with naval power taking a secondary roll to land maneuvers. Thoughts?

I dunno... I like the naval aspect. And, to be fair to the history, the whole battle took place with the strategic aim of gaining direct naval access to Russia for supply purposes. Furthermore, the first several months of the battle involved naval forces rather heavily.

(OK... reading....)

The mines did much of the damage to the attacking navy, so they're a good setpiece to include. Apparently submarines and a Turkish torpedo boat supplied the final insult that drove off the BB presence, if the Internet cliff notes version can be credited (?)

From then on, though, the battle was an attritional slugfest on the land.

I like the dual nature of the map, with naval and land portions.

I also like how you're incorporating the BBs more into the map in separate places, rather than as their own special place apart.

I'm going to have to mull over this a bit... my feeling is that some better organization on the part of the mines/landing craft, or maybe changes in deployment could help. The Dardenelles/Narrows area is set up sort of like a gauntlet, which is accurate and also interesting from a gameplay viewpoint. However, having players start with regions at the end of the gauntlet sort of defeats the purpose... why aren't they neutral, for instance?

That's just one thought; overall, I think a lot more could be done to capture the spirit of the naval side. Bombardment from the beaches of the BBs is a step in the right direction, but perhaps makes the BBs a bit too vulnerable. If there was a U-boat pen/torpedo boat/Central Powers navy region(s) that offered bombardments...?

[Industrial Helix]

Well, as you've observed, the battle was two phases. Originally, Churchill wanted to send battleships through to Constantinople so he could blow up the Ottoman capital and get them to surrender. But when the Dardenelles turned out to be too dangerous, they opted to go to Constantinople by land. So really, the ships had two purposes: 1) Initially they were to be the main force in making the Ottoman's surrender. 2) But after the failed campaign, they were used in place of artillery for the land invasion.

The difficulty with this map is that it is trying to portray both the Dardenelles campaign AND the land campaign... but the same ships used to go through the Dardenelles were the ones later used for artillery support. I'm losing faith in the idea that both phases of the battle can be accurately portrayed.

Throwing the Dardenelles fiasco into the map also further complicates the problem of getting the turkish starting points over to the European side from the Asian side. It's too complicated, I think no one is going to notice the little docks which traverse the straits.

So, I think the options are to either 1) streamline the straits feature or 2) do away with it and focus on the land battle.

[MrBenn]

How much has the gameplay changed since Cairns' original draft? I remember pouring over it previously, and would like to know if I can go and pick out some of my old analysis, or whether I'll need to start afresh...

[Industrial Helix]

Everything is the same save for the battleships scheme, which we are trying to figure out something satisfactory for.

[MrBenn]

Everything is the same save for the battleships scheme, which we are trying to figure out something satisfactory for.

Coolio. As a matter of administrative ease, please could you add a link to the original cairnswk map thread to the first post. You could also remove the "April Competition" tag from the map title too

[Industrial Helix]

Let's resolve this Battleship thing then...

1) So what about this idea? But perhaps extend the Battleships to all the landing craft and make the landing craft a neutral 1 or something. Then the beaches will be able to bombard the Battleships, effectively taking them out of the game.

Click image to enlarge.

2) Another option that I've been considering is just having one battleship that operates like Naval Power in Eastern Hemisphere. All landing craft or perhaps all beaches can one way attack it.

The problem if the landing craft attack it is that the landing craft have decay. So essentially a player will off the bat have to decide beach or battleship. OR if the player holds their beach well enough, they can decide at a later time to deploy on a craft, which should still be at 1, and then take the battleship. The only problem is, if all the landing craft are taken out then there is no way to eliminate the battleship.

[cairnswk]

IH, a copy of the email i sent lackattack yesterday....we can only live in hope.

Thanks.....
This will be the last, i think, at least for now, until i get re-energised somehow.
I know you are waiting on new images for Stalingrad, so now that my first exams are finished i will get on that later today.
Regards....

Thanks Cairns! I will try to get some map xml updates done shortly to lure you back into map making.

LOL.
.....truthfully...the xml update i would like to see occur is the one for the Gallipoli Campaign, that allows the battleships to reduce to neutral over time by decay of -1 from starting numbers of 20 or so if it is not fortified.

.....

Regards

[Industrial Helix]

So ok, let's make that solution number 3. I'd prefer the the third solution, but given the admin's track record with getting XML updates out sooner rather than later, I think we need to ask ourselves whether or not we feel like waiting.

One solution to this would be to use a back up plan, one of the previous ideas I've specified, and if the XML update goes through in the meantime, revert the gameplay to that solution. The benefits of this would be that work can begin on the graphics rather than wait around for XML to be updated and the time waiting won't be put to waste.

[Evil DIMwit]

[Moved]

It would appear that development of this map has stalled. If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the Foundry Moderators will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system, after an update has been made.

[cairnswk]

So ok, let's make that solution number 3. I'd prefer the the third solution, but given the admin's track record with getting XML updates out sooner rather than later, I think we need to ask ourselves whether or not we feel like waiting.

One solution to this would be to use a back up plan, one of the previous ideas I've specified, and if the XML update goes through in the meantime, revert the gameplay to that solution. The benefits of this would be that work can begin on the graphics rather than wait around for XML to be updated and the time waiting won't be put to waste.

IH. Bruceswar has just put up a call for this to re-started...how do you feel about that? Can you manage it?

For the battleship dilema....Sully just pointed out to me in Spanish Armada that the losing condition could be the solution to this battleship dilema.
Because all the battleships are not the only starting territories, then the losing condition would be that if a player has no armies left on all the other territories, then they are automatically eliminated anyways, regardless of what is on the battleships.
What do you think?

[Industrial Helix]

The losing condition is a brilliant solution and it would solve the whole problem!

This month is a bit crammed full for me with maps though... I could possibly take it up in August.

[cairnswk]

The losing condition is a brilliant solution and it would solve the whole problem!

This month is a bit crammed full for me with maps though... I could possibly take it up in August.

Cool, no worries...when you have time.

[thenobodies80]

The six months of vacation has expired, for this reason this topic is now labeled as [Abandoned]. If the original mapmaker wants to continue this map project it's fine but an update must provided. From this moment anyone else is free to take this project without the original mapmaker permission, but it has to be started from the scratch.