[Abandoned] - Russian Revolution

[Industrial Helix]

Wel, i like all the 2s as well, and I put them there because I figured a less populated area would have less people to fight. So not necessarily just to be different. I can't think of a way to include them without making the game unfair... though, perhaps it might be alright even with the troop disparity. Could we possibly beta test this and it if becomes apparent that it's far too unfair, then switch it to all 3s?

@thebastard- I think I'm going to leave the cities alone at neutral 2.

[MarshalNey]

Oip... I think maybe I misunderstood when you said "all 2s or all 3s". I thought you meant all open-deployment regions as all 2s or 3s, not just the low-pop areas.

For making the low-pop areas only all 2s, well, the only way I think that would be fair on the drop is with a compensating advantage, as I said earlier.

[Industrial Helix]

What I mean is that all territories start with uniform 3 per territory or alternatively uniform 2 per territory (as in having a map of twos might emphasize the commanders a tad more). I think you had it right the first time.

[MarshalNey]

Ah, well, then okay... all open deployment, non-commander regions at 2s are my vote then, but 3s would work if the prevailing opinion is otherwise.

[Industrial Helix]

Yeah, i think I favor 2s as well. Anyone else have a thought?

Should the map be populated with 2s or 3s in the starting round?

[natty dread]

2:s sound good to me.

Nice work on the map btw, this has come a long way since I last visited the thread...

[Industrial Helix]

2:s sound good to me.

Nice work on the map btw, this has come a long way since I last visited the thread...

Thanks Natty, it was a real mess wasn't it

[iancanton]

starting 2s give a bigger differential between the commanders and the normal regions, which is what i think the intention is.

ian.

[Industrial Helix]

Ok, so if the territories start at 2, what else needs to be addressed with this map?

[natty dread]

Why does saratov start with 2 when all other HQ:s start as neutral 1:s?

[Industrial Helix]

Crap... cause I never changed it. It should read as a neutral 1.

I added a list of features to the first post explaining how the map works and how it will start.

The starting details:
All territories will start as random deployment 2s.
Cities start neutral 2.
Oren, Kuban, Orel, Novgorod, Herson, Latvia, Muscovy and Saratov start neutral 1.
Czech legion, 6th Battalion and British Navy start neutral 4
Commanders start at 8 and are starting positions

Bonuses:
Red regions yield 3 for every 3 territories.
Cities auto deploy 1
Ukraine, Baltics and Poland have regional bonuses worth 4, 1 and 2 respectively.
Ukraine and Poland share a territory which is needed for their bonus. Holding both bonuses invalidates both bonuses.

Various special features
Railroads connect cities
Rivers are impassable though are bridged by cities.
Poland has a one way attack border.

[ender516]

.
.
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Ukraine, Baltics and Poland have regional bonuses worth 4, 1 and 2 respectively.
Ukraine and Poland share a territory which is needed for their bonus. Holding both bonuses invalidates both bonuses.
.
.
.

So if I hold Poland but not Ukraine, I get 2, Ukraine but not Poland, I get 4, but Ukraine and Poland, I get zip??

Aside: I should have known your avi wasn't Victoria, but I usually take a shot in that direction when I see young female royalty of that era. I am always a little surprised how pretty she was in her youth, when you consider the classic later portraits of Albert's widow. The Tsarina was quite lovely, too, no?

[Industrial Helix]

You got it. No bonus for holding Ukraine and Poland. You can play the roll of Poland in attacking Russia and Ukraine to restore Poland to its pre-partition borders or you can play the part of the Ukraine nationalists seeking to overthrow Russian rule and once Poland got her way, Polish rule as well.

As for the avatar, Alexandra was quite pretty in her youth but I think she kind of went downhill as time and the stress of the crumbling Empire went on. The same really applies to Victoria, once Albert died she really went downhill. But as they say, beauty is fleeting.

[ender516]

Beauty is fleeting, all right, especially among those at the top. Just look at most U.S. Presidents. They seem to age in office at about 3 times the normal rate.

[MarshalNey]

I'm really liking the gameplay elements overall, but here are a few things for consideration:

• 1) The British-Czech bonus will be hard to take and right now isn't attractive enough, even at a sizeable +4. It's just too hard to take for such a vulnerable bonus that another player could break, or even worse snatch. The Czech Legion is especially hard to like, as it only helps in combo with the other two 4-neutrals.
  Advice: Lower the British neutrals to 3 or even 2 (in this latter case I would lower the bonus to +3). Lower the Czech neutral to 2, or give it a small independent bonus (+1) that gets larger with British Support (+2 or +3).
  
  2) Admiral Kolchak. I know it's come up before, but as I picture myself in the position of the other generals, I find myself wincing if I'm Kolchak. His options are just too limited, having to shoot for Moscow or putter around in the hinterland, while his isolation doesn't significantly protect him from elimination when compared with the other generals- precisely because of the Moscow connection.
  Advice: Either add in a stop on the way to Muscovy or something to isolate the route and give Kolchak more protection while still providing access to the high pop areas, or give Kolchak a decent nearby bonus to take (change to the Czech Legion could help, see #1 for suggestion).
  
  3) A war of Alliances. Although the Whites are supposedly all on the same team, and ditto for the Reds, there's no gameplay mechanic that supports this. Even a little something might add a little spice.
  Advice: Maybe, a penalty/bonus for holding generals of the same/different color? This would give the Anarchists the best options, but also make them an attractive target from both sides.

Anyway, these aren't major stumbling blocks imo, just food for thought.

Marshal Ney

[Industrial Helix]

Hmm... interesting advice Marshal.

1) Will do
2) See #1 and maybe another station would be a good idea. But on second thought, the Admiral has the River blocking all the territories from attacking him. So essentially, only Trotsky could make the quick strike but then he's got to worry about Kolchak as well.
3) I dunno. This might encourage a stalemate or encourage the game to typically fall towards one player holding Whites and the other player holding the reds with the Anarchists falling either way. That idea sounds good to me but I'm not sure things will fall that way.

[Industrial Helix]

Ok, the map reflects the new bonuses and the first post with the listing of neutrals takes advantage of Marshal's advice.

Click image to enlarge.

[Industrial Helix]

Is there something missing that I need to do for this map?

[MarshalNey]

Ummm... ian's away on a trip, but I'm assuming that he'll be fine with stickying this thread, and we can put it up to the Map Surveyors for review later in the week. I'll ask Evil D if he has any comments to add. Sorry for the delay Helix.

I'm happy with the map gameplay as it stands, for my part.

Marshal Ney

[ender516]

1. Does "British & Czech Legion" mean both the 6th and the Navy along with the Czechs? (Seems likely.)
2. Perhaps the word "Both" or "All" could be squeezed into the legend (referring to #1).
3. Also, regarding the one-way attacks across the Polish border, I would use the word "direction" rather than "route" if there is room.

Points 2 and 3 may be more appropriate to the graphics workshop, but you are getting close to there, and I had them in mind, so I thought I would write them down.

[Industrial Helix]

Ender, I'll keep your points in mind in the graphics workshop. I'm currently working on the actual graphical image for the map, so things are extremely tentative.

I'm making one last gameplay change, Taurida is no longer part of Ukraine. I think the bonuses should stay the same because it's still going to be a tough bonus to hold.

[bigIMG]http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7992/russiancivilwar.png[bigIMG]

[natty dread]

Click image to enlarge.

fixed

[iancanton]

I'm making one last gameplay change, Taurida is no longer part of Ukraine.

if u do this, then the thick black line needs to be moved to separate kharkovski from taurida.

a clearer wording for the british-czech bonus might be czech legion & 2 british +6. it can currently be read that czech legion plus any british secures the bonus.

a couple of typos: stavrapol and astrakahn ought to be stavropol and astrakhan respectively.

move up the text for terek so that it's legible.

does one of the polish regions start neutral, so that no-one drops the +2?

the kazakh area appears to have been the area covered by the alash orda state, which existed from 1917 to 1919.

http://flagspot.net/flags/casia.html
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/centras ... 71920.html

ian.

[Industrial Helix]

Don't sweat the graphics issues because I'm starting over. I'll take the spelling and wording crits into mind though. Thanks!

Volynia will start with 2 neutral.

[Evil DIMwit]

It's been long enough without more complaints and Marshal seems to be busy so I'll go ahead and stamp this map.