Why do the dice suck so bad?

[Hatchman]

Enough said.

Ok bring it on everyone. Let's hear the usual "Shut the f*ck up whiner".

[Arama86n]

meh, the only dice complaint thread worth reading is (and god help me for saying it) that herkman guys. I mean, when you are taking out before getting to play... well damn it, the man has a right to make a thread!

Hush now Hatchman, take a lollipop, and be on your merry way
The dice are what they are, nothing less, nothing more.

[b00060]

They are getting worse and worse. I lose 20 man advantages consistently. I just now had a game Game 7991695 where a ? dropped 4 men in the first round and took over (5) 3 man territories and one 5 man. He won every single roll including 3v3s advancing 2 each time! It is not even like he dropped 4 singles and tapped 4 v 3s, he dropped them all on a single and reeked havoc.

[shocked439]

I agree, and usually I don't but I've had two to three times a day for the past five days where 6 on 1 isn't enough. I get that it's random and each instance occurs independently of prior occurrences but seriously the dice string is fubar'd. I've had a opponent go 20v5 and it ended 1v4 seriously WTF?

[Beckytheblondie]

Enough said.

Ok bring it on everyone. Let's hear the usual "

Indignation!

".

[Arama86n]

I'm still of the opinion that it's a lot to do with peoples expectations, and selective memory. I don't deny that statistically improbable things happen far more often than they should, but what I stand firm behind is that it's the same for everyone, and that for the bad dice streaks you get good ones too, some people just have very short term memory and are natural whiners.

Once you've been here a while you should know what to expect. Know that if you want to challenge someone, and get somewhat meaningful results, you're going to have to make it best of 11, or something of the sort, not rely on one game, which can be compromised by dice/drop.
Either you learn to live with it, or you leave. I don't see the point in the constant dice-bitch threads, but I suppose some people need to vent every now and then.

(a general statement, not directed at Hatchman, whom I respect. Usually I wouldn't bother replying at all, heh)

chin up people, next week it'll be your opponent that get's raped. What comes around goes around.

[MNDuke]

f*ck these fucking dice. I want the old ones back. There was nothing wrong with them and they were far less streaky. This new shit is bullshit.

[jackal31]

here here!

[TheSaxlad]

Merged, lets try and keep the dice thread in one place...

[TheForgivenOne]

They are getting worse and worse. I lose 20 man advantages consistently. I just now had a game Game 7991695 where a ? dropped 4 men in the first round and took over (5) 3 man territories and one 5 man. He won every single roll including 3v3s advancing 2 each time! It is not even like he dropped 4 singles and tapped 4 v 3s, he dropped them all on a single and reeked havoc.

Game 1675072


Look at the first round. That's all I'm saying

[killer_dj]

Dice are really f*cked up!!!And they always seem to fail on you when it most matters...I give my best in strategy to win games, and i only make a maximum of 20 points at every game i win, and then suddently comes a cook for christs sake and gets 40 to 50 points from me because i loose all my troops to neutrals or one armies of his whereas he kicks my deffences..that's not random...it happens too often to be random...Plus, every time you get to win some games.."random dice" and "luck" strikes back to f*ck your next games, so as to loose the points you 've been gaining ....we need more reality in this game and not stupid impossible results that brake peoples nuts!!!

[Hatchman]

Dice are really f*cked up!!!And they always seem to fail on you when it most matters...I give my best in strategy to win games, and i only make a maximum of 20 points at every game i win, and then suddently comes a cook for christs sake and gets 40 to 50 points from me because i loose all my troops to neutrals or one armies of his whereas he kicks my deffences..that's not random...it happens too often to be random...Plus, every time you get to win some games.."random dice" and "luck" strikes back to f*ck your next games, so as to loose the points you 've been gaining ....we need more reality in this game and not stupid impossible results that brake peoples nuts!!!

Agreed: the absurd dice seem t negate any strategy. And defensive strategies go out the window. Seems to be all about being in the right position to attack and hoping you get the insane dice before your opponents do...

[Melichor]

Now I know I am new and all...and yes I have had my awesome "I can't lose!" streaks as well as the "WTF is this sh!t" moments, but it only seems to be one or the other, and not any sort of random factor. The old dice (although I didn't experience it much) did seem to lend more towards strategy rather then lolluck

[Woodruff]

Dice are really f*cked up!!!And they always seem to fail on you when it most matters...I give my best in strategy to win games, and i only make a maximum of 20 points at every game i win, and then suddently comes a cook for christs sake and gets 40 to 50 points from me because i loose all my troops to neutrals or one armies of his whereas he kicks my deffences..that's not random...it happens too often to be random...Plus, every time you get to win some games.."random dice" and "luck" strikes back to f*ck your next games, so as to loose the points you 've been gaining ....we need more reality in this game and not stupid impossible results that brake peoples nuts!!!

Agreed: the absurd dice seem t negate any strategy. And defensive strategies go out the window. Seems to be all about being in the right position to attack and hoping you get the insane dice before your opponents do...

So that's how you managed that rank...by pure luck with no essence of strategy at all. Good to know!

[Sandeman]

I've seen enough 'evidence' (from myself and from others) to be convinced of at least some weired behavior of the dice from time to time. And since the dice are at the heart of this game we love, I wish we could rule out any odd dice behaviour. There must be many CC players that are IT professionals, able of judging whether the way the CC site is constructed might allow for irregularities. So can some technical staff member please provide details on software components used by the CC site, including the component providing the random generator, so we can help analyze this?

- Can we see the scripts used (php and others) ?
- Is there any test used/available to validate the distribution of the dice numbers generated?
- Could such a test be made available through the site for all users, so everyone would be able to assess himself whether the dice are indeed behaving odd for them (or not)?
This would end all discussion on the dice!
- What web server software is used, in what configuration?
- Could it be possible that handling of web page requests+responses is depending on connection stability, interaction speed, server load, server/client cache, etc., resulting in different behaviour for different users?

If the 'dice' are a bit unfair to all of us in the same way, it would not be so bad. But if some of us suffer more from it than others, it would be unfair and would deserve serious attention.

I hope this makes sense.

Sandokan

[Hatchman]

Dice are really f*cked up!!!And they always seem to fail on you when it most matters...I give my best in strategy to win games, and i only make a maximum of 20 points at every game i win, and then suddently comes a cook for christs sake and gets 40 to 50 points from me because i loose all my troops to neutrals or one armies of his whereas he kicks my deffences..that's not random...it happens too often to be random...Plus, every time you get to win some games.."random dice" and "luck" strikes back to f*ck your next games, so as to loose the points you 've been gaining ....we need more reality in this game and not stupid impossible results that brake peoples nuts!!!

Agreed: the absurd dice seem t negate any strategy. And defensive strategies go out the window. Seems to be all about being in the right position to attack and hoping you get the insane dice before your opponents do...

So that's how you managed that rank...by pure luck with no essence of strategy at all. Good to know!

Well, not exactly. I played a lot of games when the "old dice" were still around, and those dice made for much more even games. But my "high rank" has come mostly from escalating singles.

In team games with the "new dice" there always seems to be one team that gets the crazy dice, and this knocks out the other team pretty early in the game. Something's just... wrong.

I can say with certainty that my recent drop of 200+ points is about 75% the dice's fault.

[TheForgivenOne]

And I have managed to go up and down my usual scale, same thing that happened before the "new" dice came into affect. People are always going to bitch about the dice. If lack never announced that new dice were here, all of you would have been begging for the old old dice.

[Woodruff]

I've seen enough 'evidence' (from myself and from others) to be convinced of at least some weired behavior of the dice from time to time.

From time to time in the three games you've played? (Yes, yes, I know you said "and from others", but really...)

So can some technical staff member please provide details on software components used by the CC site, including the component providing the random generator, so we can help analyze this?

It's already been detailed. In this thread, if I'm not mistaken.

If the 'dice' are a bit unfair to all of us in the same way, it would not be so bad. But if some of us suffer more from it than others, it would be unfair and would deserve serious attention.

How can the dice POSSIBLY be "more unfair to some than others", short of the site intentionally programming things to be an advantage to some - is that your accusation here?

[jefjef]

And I have managed to go up and down my usual scale, same thing that happened before the "new" dice came into affect.

Maybe, just maybe, it isn't because of the dice. Maybe its because of you.

[Woodruff]

And I have managed to go up and down my usual scale, same thing that happened before the "new" dice came into affect.

Maybe, just maybe, it isn't because of the dice. Maybe its because of you.

I believe that may have been his point.

[Sandeman]

I've seen enough 'evidence' (from myself and from others) to be convinced of at least some weired behavior of the dice from time to time.

From time to time in the three games you've played? (Yes, yes, I know you said "and from others", but really...)

If it takes only three games to notice a pattern, the pattern must be pretty obvious to see, right?
But surely you give nothing for my observation. Then please experiment yourself with how quick you press the 'assault' button after seeing the result of a previous dice roll. What I noticed is that the quicker you respond, the more strings of similar results you get, like for instance double losses.

So can some technical staff member please provide details on software components used by the CC site, including the component providing the random generator, so we can help analyze this?

It's already been detailed. In this thread, if I'm not mistaken.

I just checked the complete thread: you're mistaken. If you can point me to a place where technical details are provided, I would appreciate it.

If the 'dice' are a bit unfair to all of us in the same way, it would not be so bad. But if some of us suffer more from it than others, it would be unfair and would deserve serious attention.

How can the dice POSSIBLY be "more unfair to some than others", short of the site intentionally programming things to be an advantage to some - is that your accusation here?

You missed my point and you didn't notice my single quotes around 'dice'. Of course I did not refer to real dice, which can only be unfair (if biased) to everyone in the same way (if rolled often enough). I referred to the numbers shown in CC games being generated and then communicated to my browser; that's not the same thing. And the point you missed is that I tried to point out that, if technology is bothering us rather than random number generation, then it could explain that some players notice something that others don't. If you don't agree with that but consider yourself sufficiently knowledgable on (web) technology, be my guest to prove me wrong. And I do not (wish to) accuse anyone. I try to be constructive, just as you are. Are you?

[Woodruff]

I've seen enough 'evidence' (from myself and from others) to be convinced of at least some weired behavior of the dice from time to time.

From time to time in the three games you've played? (Yes, yes, I know you said "and from others", but really...)

If it takes only three games to notice a pattern, the pattern must be pretty obvious to see, right?

Thank you for showing you don't understand the situation. That makes things much easier.

But surely you give nothing for my observation. Then please experiment yourself with how quick you press the 'assault' button after seeing the result of a previous dice roll. What I noticed is that the quicker you respond, the more strings of similar results you get, like for instance double losses.

That's called "human perception". Human perception is quite fallable. Instead, use a dice analyzer to do the same thing.

So can some technical staff member please provide details on software components used by the CC site, including the component providing the random generator, so we can help analyze this?

It's already been detailed. In this thread, if I'm not mistaken.

I just checked the complete thread: you're mistaken. If you can point me to a place where technical details are provided, I would appreciate it.

It is clearly outlined how the dice function on this site works. Check again.

[Sandeman]

Dear Woodruff,

You hate everyone questioning the dice' behavior so much, that you overlooked the intention of my writing. I wasn't complaining. I was just wondering if all dice related posting could be ended for ever by:

1. Making sure *technology* is not bothering us. (That is, I do have faith in the way the random numbers are generated. And yes, I found out about the 50.000 random number sequences; in other threads than this one.)
2. Providing a way for players to assert themselves that the distribution and streaks of rolls that they experience are not different from what all others experience.

Wouldn't that be nice for you? You wouldn't have to bully and mock all these ignorant 'complainers' anymore. And instead spend your time on gaming. Coming to gaming: Would you care to take our blades to the board? Perhaps we make perfect opponents... :O) 1 vs 1, and your choice of map and game options?

[Woodruff]

Wouldn't that be nice for you? You wouldn't have to bully and mock all these ignorant 'complainers' anymore.

I don't believe I'm bullying anyone. I am simply countering what I believe to be false assertions.

And instead spend your time on gaming. Coming to gaming: Would you care to take our blades to the board? Perhaps we make perfect opponents... :O) 1 vs 1, and your choice of map and game options?

I'd love to...I play anyone. The only folks on my foe list are those who quit games once they're ahead (along with one or two exceptions that are forum-related). We can play as many as you'd like, and I'm not particularly picky about settings except I won't play freestyle and I prefer not to play unlimited fortifications (but I will if it's a big deal).

I typically play random-map. I'll create the game and shoot you an invite. You can create some too, if you have particular map/setting preferences.

To warn you though...I auto-attack EVERYTHING (even a 4-vs-1). I'm crazy lazy like that.

[impromptublue]

The problem with the dice is that they are not random.

Now, I recognize that they are not random in a fair (between players) way. I have no conspiracy theories here; I get about an equal number of winning streaks and losing streaks. But the thing is, in a truly random system, these streaks wouldn't be happening except in very rare cases. It's gotten to the point where I'm developed heuristics like "if two losses, likelihood of next attack leading to a loss is 75%... if three losses, likelihood of next attack being loss is 90%..." This is wrong, and makes it hard to strategize; normally I'd do things like calculate the probability of losing when there's two troops, three troops, etc on a territory and find the optimal distribution, calculate when attacking is better vs defending, etc but I can't do that with such idiosyncratic dice.

Can the site at least post how the dice work so that we can strategize using those rules?