So I'm too lazy right..

[nietzsche]

so i will not provide links, please provide them for me

2 days ago some some boss in the us army said that there is insurgency in mexico and that the us is ready to step up and invade mexico to fix things..

now, the us has been setting up the situation, with pronouncements and stuff... but from that to actually said that? go to f*ck yourself USA!!!!!!

i mean, we are in this trouble because of your drug addicts, if mexico hadn't started fighting the drug lords we would be happy and rich, economy growing an all.

let us fucking remember that the us put president calderon in office with the task of facing organized crime, in a battle that has hurt every one in mexico.

really USA, f*ck you! and f*ck your citizens for allowing interventionism in all over the world. i hope bin laden blows the whole country up.

[tkr4lf]

It's nice to hear how a person from Mexico feels about all this...honestly. I'm in Texas, and hear about this stuff all the time. It's a much bigger problem than the news makes it out to be. I actually included a lot of this type of stuff in a paper I did on US policy about the legalization/decriminalization of marijuana. I think that it would help cut down on a lot of the troubles in Mexico.

But, to address your point, do you think it would be such a bad thing if the US did send troops in to fight the cartels? It really does seem like the Mexican gov't can't effectivly combat them, especially with them basically controlling many parts of northern Mexico near the border. And also, can you honestly expect anything different? With the violence that is plaguing your country spilling over into ours, it's almost inevitable that something will be done by the US gov't.

[nietzsche]

except that, mexico was happy with the drug business, usa appointed president calderon to start this fight. so, the puppet master ha more money and is able to start a chain of events that would end with the full control of 100 million people? only because they are budget for it?

tell me, is that right?

[nietzsche]

2 days ago, the news was from this army guy, today the news is that Janet napolitano said there's a link between al-quaeda and the zetas.

really? where is this going?

[tkr4lf]

No, absolutely not. Don't mistake me for a huge supporter of the US gov't. I'm very critical of many things we do. However, I do think something needs to be done about the situation. And I don't think if the US sent in troops to help fight the cartels that it would end with us controlling you, or your country. I could be wrong about this, and honestly, I wouldn't put it past our gov't to try something like that, but it's not something I THINK will happen.

But, I do think our troops could definitely even out the fight. With the terrorist tactics being employed by the cartels, e.g. threats against newspapers, journalists, etc., something needs to be done to combat them.

However, as I said before, I think that legalizing/decriminalizing marijuana at least in the US would make a huge difference. For one, the market for Mexian marijuana and/or marijuana from other countries being smuggled through Mexico, would dry up. Not many people would take a chance on quality or quantity from a random drug dealer who gets his stuff from Mexico, when you could go to your local dispensary and get a quality controlled, exact measurement of marijuana grown/distributed by the gov't. It would cause revenue from that particular drug to dry up for the cartels, making it harder for them to keep fighting against the Mexican gov't. That's just one part of the problem though.

The other problem is, as you say, most Mexicans were fine with the arrangement of gov't and cartels coexisting harmoniously. With the new president, came the new problems. Unfortunately, I see that as a problem for the Mexican citizens. You do have a democracy. If the majority of voters don't like him, and want to go back to the way things were, then vote him out of office and get someone who will go back to the previous status quo.

[tkr4lf]

2 days ago, the news was from this army guy, today the news is that Janet napolitano said there's a link between al-quaeda and the zetas.

really? where is this going?

I have heard that there are rumors of al-quaeda (sp?) trying to use Mexico as a way into the US, but nothing about them being connected with the Zetas. I'm afraid I don't know much about that.

I do know, however, that the Zeta's were originally trained by the US gov't as special forces, and then broke off from the Mexican military and formed a drug "cartel." Now my big question is, when is the US going to learn that it's not a good idea to train other's in our special forces ways? From my understanding, the Mujahadeen (sp?), Bin Laden, etc., were all trained by the US govt, and then took that knowledge and did their own thing with it, often to the contrary of what it was intended. Seems like the US gov't doesn't learn from its past mistakes.

[nietzsche]

don't be naive. the usa decided they wanted a fight between the mexican government and the cartels, knowing mexico didnt have enough to beat them. now they start linking zetas and al-quaeda?

if you tell me that they don't actually said it was a fact and all, remember that the usa doesn't need facts, it convinces it citizens with dubious ads.

they implied a link between al-quaeda and the zetas, now you'll have 250 millions of ignorant stupid americans saying al-quaeda is in mexico and bind laden lives in cancun. enough to start a war.

what's next? plan a terrorist attack or two in el paso and san diego, then blame it on the zetas, and give an ultimatum to mexico to control the zetas. a month later another 'terrorist attack' and there, you have support for taking control of mexico's oil.

f*ck usa. i really hope you die.

[tkr4lf]

don't be naive. the usa decided they wanted a fight between the mexican government and the cartels, knowing mexico didnt have enough to beat them. now they start linking zetas and al-quaeda?

if you tell me that they don't actually said it was a fact and all, remember that the usa doesn't need facts, it convinces it citizens with dubious ads.

they implied a link between al-quaeda and the zetas, now you'll have 250 millions of ignorant stupid americans saying al-quaeda is in mexico and bind laden lives in cancun. enough to start a war.

what's next? plan a terrorist attack or two in el paso and san diego, then blame it on the zetas, and give an ultimatum to mexico to control the zetas. a month later another 'terrorist attack' and there, you have support for taking control of mexico's oil.

f*ck usa. i really hope you die.

Well, man, first off, you're confusing the American gov't with the American people. From my experience, most of us don't want all this crap that the gov't does. I know that I for one, have no wishes to invade your country and rule over it. You shouldn't project the hatred you have for the US gov't onto all US citizens. A lot of us do not agree with our gov't and what it does. However, even though we are a democracy, and much like the Mexican citizens, we really don't have much control over what our gov't does. They do what they want, when they want.

As for the facts/dubious ads thing, you are partially right. There are many Americans who believe anything they hear or read in the news. Those are the stupid ones. A lot of us however, do not. We try to find the facts, and then make our decision/judgement. Don't think that every American will be conned into believing whatever the gov't tells them. It's just not true. There are some of us who actually are independent thinkers.

Also, I really don't think anybody in America supports invading Mexico just to take out the cartels, whether linked to al-queda or not. I could very well be wrong, but at least the people I know, and the people they know, do not support such an action. A lot of us are tired of US imperialism, and don't condone it at all. The attitude you are taking here is similar to the attitudes of the middle eastern terrorists, and the attitudes of racist hicks here in the US. You are associating what a gov't does, or what a few people in a country are doing, and applying it to every member of that country. That's exactly what terrorists do, that's why they hate all Americans. Just like with the retard inbred racist hicks we have in America, they think that any Muslim is a terrorist. It's just not true. You gotta realize that, at least.

[saxitoxin]

don't be naive. the usa decided they wanted a fight between the mexican government and the cartels, knowing mexico didnt have enough to beat them. now they start linking zetas and al-quaeda?

if you tell me that they don't actually said it was a fact and all, remember that the usa doesn't need facts, it convinces it citizens with dubious ads.

they implied a link between al-quaeda and the zetas, now you'll have 250 millions of ignorant stupid americans saying al-quaeda is in mexico and bind laden lives in cancun. enough to start a war.

what's next? plan a terrorist attack or two in el paso and san diego, then blame it on the zetas, and give an ultimatum to mexico to control the zetas. a month later another 'terrorist attack' and there, you have support for taking control of mexico's oil.

Nietzsche agree with you 98%. Mexicans have more common-sense intelligence than most and recognize their government is a foreign puppet, unlike dull, glassy-eyed Europeans who maintain the myth of independence even in the face of overwhelming evidence their countries are even more in the pocket of The Empire.

I give 24 months until a multi-national OAS coalition, with support from Spain, establishes the 12 Zones of Protection on the orders of The Empire.

[nietzsche]

t4rklf

even tho what you say is right, in practical manners it's the USA what does this to others. and the usa includes all its citizens. whether you agree or disagree, why don't you stop them? what did you do about bush when you learned about the fabrication of proofs for the iraq war?

how many americans died in that war? 18 year olds sent by rich bastards to get make them richer?

americans have made the whole world to hate them, and that's not because the whole world is stupid or racist or whatever. believe it or not, people dont care much about what happens elsewhere when they are not bothered.

i'm not a super patriot or anything, i know the mexican government is corrupt, i know mexican history is bs. but why did the us had to come and f*ck us because they cant control their addicts? f*ck, marijuana is not even that bad.

want to know the difference? my state, sinaloa, was booming, economy was excelent, besides agriculture and services in the capital we had all the money from the narcos, new businesses opening every day, and then president calderon comes and starts a war he cannot win, he fucks up mexico. why? because he was sent to do that. by whom? by the us. why? because they didn't care about what could happen to mexico, all they cared was their drug problem.

the us fucked up mexico, and now they say we have terrorist here with the sole intention of intervention. <-- seriusly dude, use all your rational arguments you want, call me racist or fundamentalist or whatever you want, but the truth is that one.

[bedub1]

Hillary Clinton doesn't help:
http://reason.com/blog/2011/02/10/reaso ... -thing-eve

Given you believe the US has fucked up Mexico, would you like the US army to help kill the cartels? You can boss them around.... What do you want? How shall the problem be fixed? Want a stronger border to stop the Mexican drugs from entering the US? Want the US to legalize drugs so we make them ourselves and don't import them from Mexico? Do you want your town to get rich off money from Cartels from drug addicted Americans?

[tkr4lf]

don't be naive. the usa decided they wanted a fight between the mexican government and the cartels, knowing mexico didnt have enough to beat them. now they start linking zetas and al-quaeda?

if you tell me that they don't actually said it was a fact and all, remember that the usa doesn't need facts, it convinces it citizens with dubious ads.

they implied a link between al-quaeda and the zetas, now you'll have 250 millions of ignorant stupid americans saying al-quaeda is in mexico and bind laden lives in cancun. enough to start a war.

what's next? plan a terrorist attack or two in el paso and san diego, then blame it on the zetas, and give an ultimatum to mexico to control the zetas. a month later another 'terrorist attack' and there, you have support for taking control of mexico's oil.

Nietzsche agree with you 98%. Mexicans have more common-sense intelligence than most and recognize their government is a foreign puppet, unlike dull, glassy-eyed Europeans who maintain the myth of independence even in the face of overwhelming evidence their countries are even more in the pocket of The Empire.

I give 24 months until a multi-national OAS coalition, with support from Spain, establishes the 12 Zones of Protection on the orders of The Empire.

C'mon Saxi....really? Don't tell me you actually believe this. You seem like a smart guy. This just sounds like conspiracy theory to me.

[HapSmo19]

so i will not provide links, please provide them for me

2 days ago some some boss in the us army said that there is insurgency in mexico and that the us is ready to step up and invade mexico to fix things..

now, the us has been setting up the situation, with pronouncements and stuff... but from that to actually said that? go to f*ck yourself USA!!!!!!

i mean, we are in this trouble because of your drug addicts, if mexico hadn't started fighting the drug lords we would be happy and rich, economy growing an all.

let us fucking remember that the us put president calderon in office with the task of facing organized crime, in a battle that has hurt every one in mexico.

really USA, f*ck you! and f*ck your citizens for allowing interventionism in all over the world. i hope bin laden blows the whole country up.

I seem to remember you saying, a few months ago, that you wished the US military would get involved.

What happened?

Did you take that job as a drug mule or something?

[saxitoxin]

• Located just down the street from the U.S. embassy in Mexico City, this unassuming compound might house a smorgasbord of U.S. government agencies, devoted to spying on the Mexican security services and anyone else its inhabitants feel like. Mexican Presidents Vicente Fox and Felipe Calderon authorized and stood up the office “without taking into account any objections from the Mexican military,” according to the Proceso piece, and allowed it to “spy on Mexican government agencies, including the Secretariat of National Defense, Navy, and the diplomatic missions in Mexico.”

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/tag/off ... elligence/

[saxitoxin]

C'mon Saxi....really? Don't tell me you actually believe this. You seem like a smart guy. This just sounds like conspiracy theory to me.

Take away "theory" and you have "conspiracy."

I seem to remember you saying, a few months ago, that you wished the US military would get involved.

That did confuse me as well. I just assumed I'd finally succeeded in radicalizing Nietzsche. The world does revolve around Saxi, after all.

[tkr4lf]

t4rklf

even tho what you say is right, in practical manners it's the USA what does this to others. and the usa includes all its citizens. whether you agree or disagree, why don't you stop them? what did you do about bush when you learned about the fabrication of proofs for the iraq war?

how many americans died in that war? 18 year olds sent by rich bastards to get make them richer?

americans have made the whole world to hate them, and that's not because the whole world is stupid or racist or whatever. believe it or not, people dont care much about what happens elsewhere when they are not bothered.

i'm not a super patriot or anything, i know the mexican government is corrupt, i know mexican history is bs. but why did the us had to come and f*ck us because they cant control their addicts? f*ck, marijuana is not even that bad.

want to know the difference? my state, sinaloa, was booming, economy was excelent, besides agriculture and services in the capital we had all the money from the narcos, new businesses opening every day, and then president calderon comes and starts a war he cannot win, he fucks up mexico. why? because he was sent to do that. by whom? by the us. why? because they didn't care about what could happen to mexico, all they cared was their drug problem.

the us fucked up mexico, and now they say we have terrorist here with the sole intention of intervention. <-- seriusly dude, use all your rational arguments you want, call me racist or fundamentalist or whatever you want, but the truth is that one.

I'm not calling you anything man. I'm just saying the attitude reminds me of the attitude that those people have.

And don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you that America is fucked up. However, there honestly isn't much the average citizen can do. What can I do to stop the gov't? I could join a protest...not gonna accomplish a thing. I could sign a petition...not gonna accomplish a thing. I could stage a sit in....not gonna accomplish a thing. I could write to my congressman....not gonna accomplish a thing. The gov't is in the pockets of the super rich in this country. I am not one of the super rich, so I have pretty much zero say what goes on. All, I'm saying is, you shouldn't blame all Americans. You should blame the US gov't, because they are the ones doing these things. The average American citizen, in my opinion, has zero control over what the gov't does. If you are a super rich American, then you have some say in what happens, because you donate tons of money to the winning candidate. The rest of us can't do that.

And like I said, I'm glad to hear how an actual Mexican citizen feels about all this. Because like I said, I hear about this stuff all the time, being so close to Mexico. But the only discussion I have is with other Americans. It's good to know how a Mexican feels about this. It brings some perspective to the whole situation. But, once again, please don't hold us all accountable for what our gov't does. The majority of us have absolutely no say in what happens. Yes, we can vote. But, Republican or Democrat, they are the same. They both want the same things. The differences are superficial.

[nietzsche]

so i will not provide links, please provide them for me

2 days ago some some boss in the us army said that there is insurgency in mexico and that the us is ready to step up and invade mexico to fix things..

now, the us has been setting up the situation, with pronouncements and stuff... but from that to actually said that? go to f*ck yourself USA!!!!!!

i mean, we are in this trouble because of your drug addicts, if mexico hadn't started fighting the drug lords we would be happy and rich, economy growing an all.

let us fucking remember that the us put president calderon in office with the task of facing organized crime, in a battle that has hurt every one in mexico.

really USA, f*ck you! and f*ck your citizens for allowing interventionism in all over the world. i hope bin laden blows the whole country up.

I seem to remember you saying, a few months ago, that you wished the US military would get involved.

What happened?

Did you take that job as a drug mule or something?

I wished the us army could help to stop the violence. I even commented on these same facts about the US pronouncements going little by little to set up a need of intervention. But another fucking thing is that a us army boss says they are ready to step up because there is insurgency, and that 2 day later napolitano says there are links between al-quaeda and the zetas. we all know what that fucking means, what they are doing.

as i said before, im not a sucker for patriotism, but mexico, with all its shortcomings, did nothing to deserve this fucking intervention. only because the usa can do it? then f*ck the usa, i'm learning to hate you like the rest of the world does.

[maasman]

then f*ck the usa, i'm learning to hate you like the rest of the world does.

I personally don't care anymore what everyone else thinks of the US. Yes I wish we would stop fucking up, but honestly there is not much I can personally do. I've been brought up with people hating the US and I've completely gotten used to it and have stopped caring because as you say:

believe it or not, people dont care much about what happens elsewhere when they are not bothered.

Which is exactly as what's happened to US citizens. We are not very directly bothered by these things, the US gov. just decides to do random shit. I'll just continue living my life trying to be a good person, and hopefully people won't judge me by my country of origin. I know I don't do it to others.

[saxitoxin]

Also, just two weeks ago Napolitano said Canada was a bigger threat to the US than Mexico. They're already looking 3 squares ahead. As soon as the bulk of the CF is in Mexico the 10th Mountain will have an open carriageway straight into downtown Ottawa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuuidLpIZHI&t=1m8s

[sundalius]

Wait wait wait... Napolitano said that the US could move on Canada if we had control of Mexico... Oh my god... This could end up horrible...

And I thought the world wars would be done already! The US stopped the Europeans from annihilating each others twice, and now our own Government want to get us killed on a Suicide Mission to control the Americas. Dear god.... do they think that the Nuclear Arsenals won't come out if we Americans move on Mexico and Canada!?

[saxitoxin]

Also, just two weeks ago Napolitano said Canada was a bigger threat to the US than Mexico. They're already looking 3 squares ahead. As soon as the bulk of the CF is in Mexico the 10th Mountain will have an open carriageway straight into downtown Ottawa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuuidLpIZHI&t=1m8s

No sooner had I posted this than the CBC released this story about Democrat Party senators asking Obama arm and fortify the northern border against possible threats from Canada.

• Military Sought for U.S.-Canada Border
  
  With the U.S.-Canada border under sudden intense scrutiny in the United States, a handful of American senators placed it under an ever-harsher spotlight Thursday by asking for the military's help in patrolling the boundary.
  
  Democrat senators from states located near or along the 6,400-kilometre border are asking the U.S. Department of Defence to provide military radar ...
  
  Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2011/02/1 ... z1DbpVKLsL
  

[BigBallinStalin]

2 days ago, the news was from this army guy, today the news is that Janet napolitano said there's a link between al-quaeda and the zetas.

really? where is this going?

I have heard that there are rumors of al-quaeda (sp?) trying to use Mexico as a way into the US, but nothing about them being connected with the Zetas. I'm afraid I don't know much about that.

I do know, however, that the Zeta's were originally trained by the US gov't as special forces, and then broke off from the Mexican military and formed a drug "cartel." Now my big question is, when is the US going to learn that it's not a good idea to train other's in our special forces ways? From my understanding, the Mujahadeen (sp?), Bin Laden, etc., were all trained by the US govt, and then took that knowledge and did their own thing with it, often to the contrary of what it was intended. Seems like the US gov't doesn't learn from its past mistakes.

The US just supplied them weapons mostly. As for training, not so much, and from the book The Looming Tower, the FBI or CIA guy in there talks about how the Mujahideen were very ineffective--almost a complete joke. The irregular Afghanis were the real deal.

[BigBallinStalin]

t4rklf

even tho what you say is right, in practical manners it's the USA what does this to others. and the usa includes all its citizens. whether you agree or disagree, why don't you stop them? what did you do about bush when you learned about the fabrication of proofs for the iraq war?

how many americans died in that war? 18 year olds sent by rich bastards to get make them richer?

americans have made the whole world to hate them, and that's not because the whole world is stupid or racist or whatever. believe it or not, people dont care much about what happens elsewhere when they are not bothered.

i'm not a super patriot or anything, i know the mexican government is corrupt, i know mexican history is bs. but why did the us had to come and f*ck us because they cant control their addicts? f*ck, marijuana is not even that bad.

want to know the difference? my state, sinaloa, was booming, economy was excelent, besides agriculture and services in the capital we had all the money from the narcos, new businesses opening every day, and then president calderon comes and starts a war he cannot win, he fucks up mexico. why? because he was sent to do that. by whom? by the us. why? because they didn't care about what could happen to mexico, all they cared was their drug problem.

the us fucked up mexico, and now they say we have terrorist here with the sole intention of intervention. <-- seriusly dude, use all your rational arguments you want, call me racist or fundamentalist or whatever you want, but the truth is that one.

Dude, even in the most practical sense, there's a difference between "government" and "all its citizens."

Most Americans aren't going to take to the street to defend Mexico's sovereignty because they're indifferent, and the opportunity costs are too high (e.g. Some people have jobs which pay more than the value received from taking several days off to rally outside the state capital). Americans would probably lose about 10% of their income every year if they protested every single violent military act the US govt has committed per year.

Also, there's the mainstream media to lull people to sleep. There's the shuffle in and shuffle out of same-faced congresspeople, senators, and presidents. Americans feel underpowered, but pretty much content enough on the international scene, thus they're indifferent.

But, I do partly agree with you. One could blame it on the Military-Industrial Complex, blame it on the government's vested interests, blame it on the a-a-a-a-alcohol, but past the external locus of control, most Americans are still in the end responsible for their government's actions.

Why? Because by doing nothing, they accept it. They accept the government's social contract.

[BigBallinStalin]

And don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you that America is fucked up. However, there honestly isn't much the average citizen can do. What can I do to stop the gov't? I could join a protest...not gonna accomplish a thing. I could sign a petition...not gonna accomplish a thing. I could stage a sit in....not gonna accomplish a thing. I could write to my congressman....not gonna accomplish a thing. The gov't is in the pockets of the super rich in this country. I am not one of the super rich, so I have pretty much zero say what goes on. All, I'm saying is, you shouldn't blame all Americans. You should blame the US gov't, because they are the ones doing these things. The average American citizen, in my opinion, has zero control over what the gov't does. If you are a super rich American, then you have some say in what happens, because you donate tons of money to the winning candidate. The rest of us can't do that.

But you do have the power to change things. You just don't think you have.

Governments only exist through the cooperation of the people. Without enough cooperation, they can't function (like Egypt). However, if the people are satisfied enough with life, they'll make excuses about why they can't successfully stop US actions that don't really affect them.

The only success (or probable) success I've seen so far is this current campaign to stop certain parts of the US Patriot Act from continuing. And that mainly originated from the grassroots organization, the Tea Party, and then through their respective constituents.

All else, like the current war in Iraq and AFG, and the constant funneling of money there,---all that, could be stopped, but Americans in general don't care enough to stop it.

[BigBallinStalin]

then f*ck the usa, i'm learning to hate you like the rest of the world does.

I personally don't care anymore what everyone else thinks of the US. Yes I wish we would stop fucking up, but honestly there is not much I can personally do. I've been brought up with people hating the US and I've completely gotten used to it and have stopped caring because as you say:

believe it or not, people dont care much about what happens elsewhere when they are not bothered.

Which is exactly as what's happened to US citizens. We are not very directly bothered by these things, the US gov. just decides to do random shit. I'll just continue living my life trying to be a good person, and hopefully people won't judge me by my country of origin. I know I don't do it to others.

Exactly, it's what most German citizens did when the Nazis took control. Just keep your head down, go to work, and things will be fine for the most part. (I'm not implying that the US is as bad as a police state as Nazi Germany was, but the similarities with the people's reactions are striking to behold).