Sanctification

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

Why not? can twe all belive what we want? Is that not our right? Is that not anybodys right?

Sure it is.


Doesn't make it taboo to discuss what is correct or incorrect, though.

[hourman]

then why cant we all get along.

[luns101]

Well we could say that the entire planet hatched from a giant egg, laid by a huge omnipotent, magical golden bird. I once read a very old and detailed book about it. If you have automatically discounted this option before studying it in its entirety, then that is an unjust bias against giant golden omnipotent magical birds. Should we teach this in our schools as well as an alternate theory? Why not?

It would be impossible to address your remark as it is a hypothetical. Heavycola and I are dealing with 2 alternate theories of origins that have been put forth in the world of reality.

I am curious luns101...

I doubt it, your previous remarks show that you have already made up your mind.

do you believe that the worlds oceans, mountain ranges and volcanoes were created as is by your gods as well and they are unchanged since their creation?

No. They were created in perfection by 1 God. When mankind chose to sin against God, creation was corrupted and changed. Many geological changes occurred during Noah's flood ("universal deluge" as evolutionists like to term it).

Now I will ask you a question, backglass: How do you believe the universe came into existence?

[luns101]

Take care not to miss that challenge I threw you up for.

You're in no position to dictate how anyone chooses to post or respond to posts.

As for your little "haven't observed adaptation" tripe

Your arrogance and smugness shows that you are not even willing to consider anything I might put forth. You have set yourself up to be intellectually superior by the way you are addressing me. I don't accept that premise.

Walking upright, the resulting skeletal changes, etc., these are all instances of adaptation.

Which examples are you referring to? Nebraska Man, Java Man, Piltdown Man, Neanderthal Man, Lucy, Australopithecus?...I took a look at all of them. They all have serious flaws and are incomplete.

You're using old arguments that have been refuted time and time again.

They haven't been refuted. They have been conveniently disregarded by those who refuse to seriously consider anything other than the evolutionary model.

So what is it that you object to, really? Is it because I once believed like you and changed my mind? I switched faiths. There's no way I can convince you, backglass, or heavycola and I'm not trying to. I'm merely explaining the questions that I had were not adequately answered by the evolutionary model. You are free to believe what you want...I'm not stopping you.

[jay_a2j]

Oh, but I am an expert in Evolution.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... c&start=15

I see you have mastered the copy/paste method....bravo! (Its just sad you post that as your own)

[jay_a2j]

I won't worship him.

You may not...but you will bow to Him. "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord".

[Skittles!]

That's pretty injust. Bowing to someone you don't want to bow to and you don't have a choice in the matter.

That's just like how Christians are told to disown in what they believe in, in some countries. Telling a person of different beliefs to the Christian one saying that they must bow to this god of yours.

I find that in-humane, but then again, you're god isn't human.

Also, what is with the Bible and the letter 40?
1. Moses was in the desert for 40 years before going back to free the slaves.
2. Noah's flood rain lasted 40 days and 40 nights.
3. Jesus being in the desert for 40 days being tempted by Satan 3 times.

Maybe it's pointing to look at page 40. Or maybe that's how many 1000's of years Christians have to wait to have Jesus back.

[heavycola]

Well we could say that the entire planet hatched from a giant egg, laid by a huge omnipotent, magical golden bird. I once read a very old and detailed book about it. If you have automatically discounted this option before studying it in its entirety, then that is an unjust bias against giant golden omnipotent magical birds. Should we teach this in our schools as well as an alternate theory? Why not?

It would be impossible to address your remark as it is a hypothetical. Heavycola and I are dealing with 2 alternate theories of origins that have been put forth in the world of reality.

OK how about putting it this way - the story of creation in genesis is no more or less valid than any other creation myth from any other culture. Every culture has myths that explain the world around them and their place in it.

i woudl also suggest that evolution by natural selection has been a far more successful set of beliefs than christianity:
Imagine how much opposition Darwin's theories came up against - they were blasphemous, revolutionary, and suggested that man had not been created from dust in god's image but had evolved from lesser animals. I have heard it said that it was nigh impossible to be an atheist before Darwin came along.
Nowadays, however, natural selection is accepted by the vast majority of scientists and laypeople as the truth behind our origins on this planet (although there is still much disagreement over the details, as you piointed out).
Christianity, by comparison, is on the wane. In the UK church attendance has halved since 1985. Xianity is on the way out - how can what HP Lovecraft called 'the keeping alive as literal fact the outgrown fears and guesses of a primal race confronting the unknown' survive in the face of what we know now?

And yeah, Kurgen = superbadass

[Backglass]

It would be impossible to address your remark as it is a hypothetical. Heavycola and I are dealing with 2 alternate theories of origins that have been put forth in the world of reality.

Intelligent design is equally hypothetical. It's a guess...with only blind faith and biblical legend and lore as it's proof.

I doubt it, your previous remarks show that you have already made up your mind.

As have you. You took the red-pill and now believe and worship mystical creatures. I'd still sit down and have a beer with you though, as long as you didn't try to indoctrinate me.

No. They were created in perfection by 1 God. When mankind chose to sin against God, creation was corrupted and changed. Many geological changes occurred during Noah's flood

So, all the geological changes we can see that have happened in the past were due to a flood? What about the Dinosaurs? I guess they lived just a few thousand years ago? The lava flows from ancient eruptions found around the world are really only a few thousand years old? Just trying to understand your position. If you truly believe that the world was "poof!" created only a few thousand years ago how do you explain away all this information?

Now I will ask you a question, backglass: How do you believe the universe came into existence?

Honestly? I have no idea. I don't cling to a particular theory. The Big Bang seems as far fetched to me as that of some supernatural man in the sky clapping his hands.

I tend to believe that the universe is infinite and has always been here and is continually changing. I don't think it MUST have a creation date or creator.

Cant we all just get along. cant we just let people belive what they want. I for one am catholic. and I have no problem with anybody. they can do what they want. everybody has there right to belive what they want.

Of course! You can believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own home or church. Pray, dance, drink ritual wine, speak in tongues, smear charcoal on your forehead, handle snakes, whatever. But if you want to teach it in public schools, put up monuments in public places or post on public forums, you will have some opposition to deal with.

You may not...but you will bow to Him. "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord".

These kind of cultish, preachy quotes only drive home the fact that you seriously delusional. You live your life (and will die) believing in superstitions and fairy tales from an ancient storybook. Enjoy your rituals if they bring you comfort.

[MR. Nate]

then why cant we all get along.

You may have misunderstood the whole "forum" thing. We are here because we want to discuss it. We like discussing it, we like testing one another. For the most part, no one takes it personally, and I think that those who engage the debate, rather than simply pounding away at their own view, gain some respect for the individuals (if the not the viewpoints) on the other side.

The irony of this particular thread, is that the title prevents me from posting as much as I would like. I've seen some threadjacking in the past, but this is ridiculous. Every time I decide to post, I start to type, then see title of the thread . . . and realize the Christlike thing to do is get back to my studying.

[jay_a2j]

That's pretty injust. Bowing to someone you don't want to bow to and you don't have a choice in the matter.

That's just like how Christians are told to disown in what they believe in, in some countries. Telling a person of different beliefs to the Christian one saying that they must bow to this god of yours.

I find that in-humane, but then again, you're god isn't human.

Also, what is with the Bible and the letter 40?
1. Moses was in the desert for 40 years before going back to free the slaves.
2. Noah's flood rain lasted 40 days and 40 nights.
3. Jesus being in the desert for 40 days being tempted by Satan 3 times.

Maybe it's pointing to look at page 40. Or maybe that's how many 1000's of years Christians have to wait to have Jesus back.

They won't be "forced" to bow. All will see Jesus for who He is and bow out of respect.


There are several numbers that appear and reappear in scripture. I believe 40 was "a generation". Also there is 7 days of creation, 7 bowels, 7 trumpets.

[unriggable]

I won't worship him.

You may not...but you will bow to Him. "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord".

Alongside the Twelfth Imam. They will all bow to both, and Jesus will fight the twelfth Imam, and then pro wrestlers around the country will flock to join the fray. It will be chaos. And it will be good.

[heavycola]

The irony of this particular thread, is that the title prevents me from posting as much as I would like. I've seen some threadjacking in the past, but this is ridiculous. Every time I decide to post, I start to type, then see title of the thread . . . and realize the Christlike thing to do is get back to my studying.

You may have misunderstood the whole "forum" thing

[The1exile]

I won't worship him.

You may not...but you will bow to Him. "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord".

Alongside the Twelfth Imam. They will all bow to both, and Jesus will fight the twelfth Imam, and then pro wrestlers around the country will flock to join the fray. It will be chaos. And it will be good.

I don't think I have sky sports. Can you tape it for me?

[unriggable]

I won't worship him.

You may not...but you will bow to Him. "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord".

Alongside the Twelfth Imam. They will all bow to both, and Jesus will fight the twelfth Imam, and then pro wrestlers around the country will flock to join the fray. It will be chaos. And it will be good.

I don't think I have sky sports. Can you tape it for me?

Sure, but I don't think I get ESPN Holy Channel. Do you have an HDTV?

[The1exile]

Nah, don't watch much TV anyway. So just got an old TV with freeview on it.

[beezer]

OK how about putting it this way - the story of creation in genesis is no more or less valid than any other creation myth from any other culture. Every culture has myths that explain the world around them and their place in it.

Except that's not where the story ends. The Bible also goes on to predict the future. I always wondered how the antichrist as described in the Bible would get away with his lies when they are exposed in Scripture. I guess the answer is that by people refusing to read the Bible in the first place, he can pretty much blaspheme God and get the majority of the world on his side with no accountability.

i woudl also suggest that evolution by natural selection has been a far more successful set of beliefs than christianity:
Imagine how much opposition Darwin's theories came up against - they were blasphemous, revolutionary, and suggested that man had not been created from dust in god's image but had evolved from lesser animals. I have heard it said that it was nigh impossible to be an atheist before Darwin came along.

Atheism existed before Darwin. Darwin just formalized it. Karl Marx and Darwin corresponded with each other after the Origin of Species came out. Atheists felt more emboldened after Darwin put out his theories.

Nowadays, however, natural selection is accepted by the vast majority of scientists and laypeople as the truth behind our origins on this planet (although there is still much disagreement over the details, as you piointed out).

Christianity, by comparison, is on the wane. In the UK church attendance has halved since 1985. Xianity is on the way out - how can what HP Lovecraft called 'the keeping alive as literal fact the outgrown fears and guesses of a primal race confronting the unknown' survive in the face of what we know now?

Sheer numbers don't prove something is correct. You are taking UK church attendance and applying it to all of Christianity. Here in the US, people are accepting Jesus Christ at record levels. It's not just here in the US. Christianity is spreading so fast in China that the government there is having problems tracking all the "underground" churches. I'm sure that if 99.99999% of the world became Christian you wouldn't say that that is absolute proof that we're right and you're wrong.

[The1exile]

Except that's not where the story ends. The Bible also goes on to predict the future. I always wondered how the antichrist as described in the Bible would get away with his lies when they are exposed in Scripture. I guess the answer is that by people refusing to read the Bible in the first place, he can pretty much blaspheme God and get the majority of the world on his side with no accountability.

So do a bunch of fortunetellers, and other religions. That the bible predicts the future is your unique selling pont?

Atheism existed before Darwin. Darwin just formalized it. Karl Marx and Darwin corresponded with each other after the Origin of Species came out. Atheists felt more emboldened after Darwin put out his theories.

It was still nearly impossible to be an atheist, because at the time the expectation was that you would believe in something - likely the mainstream religions of the time.

Sheer numbers don't prove something is correct. You are taking UK church attendance and applying it to all of Christianity. Here in the US, people are accepting Jesus Christ at record levels. It's not just here in the US. Christianity is spreading so fast in China that the government there is having problems tracking all the "underground" churches. I'm sure that if 99.99999% of the world became Christian you wouldn't say that that is absolute proof that we're right and you're wrong.

No. But heres the thing, if that many people did believe in xianity, it wopuld probably be a fairly solid theory. If heavycola has a more solid one, then people would tend to follow it, which is why people accept evolution more than creation generally.[/quote]

[Aries]

This thread is long hehahehahehahehahehahehahehahehahehahehahehahehahehahehahehahe

[luns101]

i woudl also suggest that evolution by natural selection has been a far more successful set of beliefs than christianity:
Imagine how much opposition Darwin's theories came up against - they were blasphemous, revolutionary, and suggested that man had not been created from dust in god's image but had evolved from lesser animals. I have heard it said that it was nigh impossible to be an atheist before Darwin came along.

Actually, the idea of spontaneous generation came before Darwin as early as the time of Aristotle. Scientists such as Francisco Redi, Louis Pasteur, and Lazzaro Spallanzani disproved that theory. Darwin resurrected it. Evolution is a reversion to that worldview.

Nowadays, however, natural selection is accepted by the vast majority of scientists and laypeople as the truth behind our origins on this planet (although there is still much disagreement over the details, as you piointed out).

I don't know where you got your figures on that so I can't say whether that's right or wrong. Where did you get that information from? I will say that there is a growing group of scientists who are leaving the ranks of evolution. They are not Christians and do not accept the Bible. They instead are calling themselves believers in "intelligent design". So I think the trend is moving away from acceptance of evolution, but not embracing creationism either.

Christianity, by comparison, is on the wane. In the UK church attendance has halved since 1985. Xianity is on the way out - how can what HP Lovecraft called 'the keeping alive as literal fact the outgrown fears and guesses of a primal race confronting the unknown' survive in the face of what we know now?

I could respond to this, but Beezer already did. You can't use church attendance from the UK and apply it to all of Christianity. Lots of peoples' lives are being changed by Jesus Christ every day. Trading in my old life of living for myself for the privilege of helping others is awesome!

I will leave you with the words of another famous evolutionist. His name is George Wald and he won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1967 for his work with vision:

"When it comes to the origin of life on this earth, there are only two possibilities: creation or spontaneous generation. There is no 3rd way. Spontaneous generation was disproved 100 years ago, but that leads us only to one other conclusion: that of supernational creation. We cannot accept that on philosophical grounds. Therefore, we choose to believe the impossible: that life arose spontaneously by chance."

[luns101]

Except that's not where the story ends. The Bible also goes on to predict the future.

So do a bunch of fortunetellers, and other religions. That the bible predicts the future is your unique selling pont?

The Bible's predictions came true with 100% accuracy. Which fortunetellers are you referring to...Jean Dixon and Nostradamus? Which religions are you referring to that have 100% accuracy with their prediction of future events?

[got tonkaed]

I actually did as part of one my courses a class on the evolution/Id/creationism issue. Although my presentation dealt with the teaching of each in the public school system it might be somewhat relavant. The majority of scientists are not in disagreement and the majority of scientists yes are in fact evolutionists. Although there is some degree of movement toward ID, the issue seems to be that a large contingent of the movement is either creationists who have been disenchanted by the legal precedents which favor evolution. Also, although certainly one can have their own views about bits and pieces of ID to cater to their own personal belief system, the majority of the scientific community does not regard ID as having much merit scientifically, rather it is seemingly viewed as a cut and paste job by those who are willing to agree with some elements of commonly accepted scientific convention along with the removal of some stances which are too problematic to be endorsed by the individuals who are promoting ID as a legit scientific alternative. I think it goes without saying that a lot of the funding and endorsement for Id also comes from the group who is disenchated by the loss of the battle for creationism vs evolution.

Also, luns you are in a sense correct about darwin but there is a caveat that i feel you are missing. Yes darwins theory has some elements which are related to earlier ideas that were forumlated, but heavycola's contention is a popular thought. Though the idea was out there, the majority of individuals throughout history would not have had the means to get to such ideas especially as there were few books that were created outside of church control. Obviously the church was not in favor of those ideas and as a result, it would have been much more difficult for an individiual to understand the alternative idea for creation of hte world which darwin eventually elaborated....and more importantly, was acessible for a wide audience to read.


And to the end of my rant....It is simply irresponsbile for our public education system (with states like Kansas being the foremost example so far) to avoid teaching evolution. We live in a globalizing world, where competition for jobs with a larger world labor pool is greater than ever before. Frankly, i do not care what any individual personally believes about how we came to be. I respect it as a personal issue and wasnt actually there when it happened so although i feel the evidence does clearly favor evolution....i cant prove the existence of a God or not. However....when you dont teach evolution....which yes is the accepted theory (theory does not just mean someones idea) in the scientific community, you create a worldview which disregards science. This is not acceptable as we will only put these children at an incredible disadvantage when competing with their national and international peers in a competitive atmosphere. The fact that this is frankly just not an issue in much of the developed world (and here i am speaking mostly about the public school system, thought its not really an issue in general) shows that we clearly are not focused on preparing our students for a successful future in the workforce.

End rant.

[luns101]

Intelligent design is equally hypothetical. It's a guess...with only blind faith and biblical legend and lore as it's proof.

I disagree. While faith is necessary for a creationist, it is not a blind faith. For me, it takes less faith to believe in God creating the universe than some magical pixie dust of chemicals that got together and blew us into existence. But as you have said before...everyone is free to believe what they want.

You took the red-pill and now believe and worship mystical creatures. I'd still sit down and have a beer with you though, as long as you didn't try to indoctrinate me.

I took no such casual "dive" into my current beliefs. I took a little more than a year to read and look at both sides. I chose to change my preconceptions and accept another faith - Christianity. I did not take that decision lightly as I knew I would be ridiculed for it one day.

I would definitely take you up on your offer to sit down for a drink sometime on 2 conditions: (1) Please don't make me drink San Miguel, and (2) you tell me how you got started with pinball collecting and what it all entails. I collect baseball cards myself.

What about the Dinosaurs? I guess they lived just a few thousand years ago? The lava flows from ancient eruptions found around the world are really only a few thousand years old? Just trying to understand your position. If you truly believe that the world was "poof!" created only a few thousand years ago how do you explain away all this information?

I believe that dinosaurs lived contemporaneously with man. Since God saved 2 of each kind of animal during the flood, dinosaurs (I believe infant dinosaurs) were saved on that ark. The flood itself was not just some heavy thunderstorm, but also one that produced volcanic eruptions & springs bursting from the ground (as described in Genesis 7:11). After the flood, I believe there was an ice age which caused dinosaurs to become extinct since they were cold-blooded.

I don't attempt to explain away anything, rather to give you my position. If you are truly interested in my views, then you will take them for just that, and not an attempt to "indoctrinate" you. I don't expect you to find my beliefs about dinosaur extinction credible as you would never believe in a worldwide flood in the first place.

I tend to believe that the universe is infinite and has always been here and is continually changing. I don't think it MUST have a creation date or creator.

Well then, I could say that you believe in a magical universe that has continually existed with no explanation of where it came from. That takes just as much faith to believe in as my belief in an eternal God.

Once again, my aim is not to "convert" you. What bothers me is when people start attacking Christians and just assuming that they intellectually inferior. Other people here have challenged me to give reasons for why I changed and I have done so. They claim that they have read the Bible, but I can tell by their statements that they haven't.

[luns101]

Although there is some degree of movement toward ID, the issue seems to be that a large contingent of the movement is either creationists who have been disenchanted by the legal precedents which favor evolution.

either creationists who have been disenchanted by the legal precedents which favor evolution or...who's the other group?

the majority of individuals throughout history would not have had the means to get to such ideas especially as there were few books that were created outside of church control. Obviously the church was not in favor of those ideas and as a result, it would have been much more difficult for an individiual to understand the alternative idea for creation of hte world which darwin eventually elaborated....and more importantly, was acessible for a wide audience to read.

A reversion is a reversion, regardless of the means by which is carried out. I think that the Catholic and Protestant negative reactions to both Copernicus & Galileo have a lot to do with why scientists have such a grudge against Christians/creationists/ID'ers today.

when you dont teach evolution....which yes is the accepted theory (theory does not just mean someones idea) in the scientific community, you create a worldview which disregards science.

...and this is the point I've been trying to refute. That just because somebody doesn't subscribe to the evolutionary model does not mean they are anti-science. But like I said, that grudge is probably held over thanks to Martin Luther, Pope Paul III, and Cardinal Bellarmine.

This is not acceptable as we will only put these children at an incredible disadvantage when competing with their national and international peers in a competitive atmosphere. The fact that this is frankly just not an issue in much of the developed world (and here i am speaking mostly about the public school system, thought its not really an issue in general) shows that we clearly are not focused on preparing our students for a successful future in the workforce.

...then that would be pure bigotry on the part of people who view creationists/ID'ers/Christians as intellectually backward.

End rant.

Not at all. Your views were well thought out and articulated. You were respectful in your disagreements. Thank you for such a well written post.

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

Intelligent design is equally hypothetical. It's a guess...with only blind faith and biblical legend and lore as it's proof.

I disagree. While faith is necessary for a creationist, it is not a blind faith. For me, it takes less faith to believe in God creating the universe than some magical pixie dust of chemicals that got together and blew us into existence. But as you have said before...everyone is free to believe what they want.

You took the red-pill and now believe and worship mystical creatures. I'd still sit down and have a beer with you though, as long as you didn't try to indoctrinate me.

I took no such casual "dive" into my current beliefs. I took a little more than a year to read and look at both sides. I chose to change my preconceptions and accept another faith - Christianity. I did not take that decision lightly as I knew I would be ridiculed for it one day.

I would definitely take you up on your offer to sit down for a drink sometime on 2 conditions: (1) Please don't make me drink San Miguel, and (2) you tell me how you got started with pinball collecting and what it all entails. I collect baseball cards myself.

What about the Dinosaurs? I guess they lived just a few thousand years ago? The lava flows from ancient eruptions found around the world are really only a few thousand years old? Just trying to understand your position. If you truly believe that the world was "poof!" created only a few thousand years ago how do you explain away all this information?

I believe that dinosaurs lived contemporaneously with man. Since God saved 2 of each kind of animal during the flood, dinosaurs (I believe infant dinosaurs) were saved on that ark. The flood itself was not just some heavy thunderstorm, but also one that produced volcanic eruptions & springs bursting from the ground (as described in Genesis 7:11). After the flood, I believe there was an ice age which caused dinosaurs to become extinct since they were cold-blooded.

I don't attempt to explain away anything, rather to give you my position. If you are truly interested in my views, then you will take them for just that, and not an attempt to "indoctrinate" you. I don't expect you to find my beliefs about dinosaur extinction credible as you would never believe in a worldwide flood in the first place.

I tend to believe that the universe is infinite and has always been here and is continually changing. I don't think it MUST have a creation date or creator.

Well then, I could say that you believe in a magical universe that has continually existed with no explanation of where it came from. That takes just as much faith to believe in as my belief in an eternal God.

Once again, my aim is not to "convert" you. What bothers me is when people start attacking Christians and just assuming that they intellectually inferior. Other people here have challenged me to give reasons for why I changed and I have done so. They claim that they have read the Bible, but I can tell by their statements that they haven't.

What about the geologic column and carbon dating?

What about clear indications of evolution along the way?

Or did you skip that thread that already addressed these issues that I posted?