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There's still a decision being made, so it's still a choice, which is why I inserted that whole spiel about what people value and how that determines how people make decisions.natty_dread wrote:It's not that simple.
Many people can't choose where they live. Not really. Say you only know the language of your home country. That means that it would be difficult to move abroad. It would be difficult to get work anywhere else.
And what about children, family, work... there are lots of practical reasons for an individual to not be able to move somewhere else.
Sure, you always have a "choice". But if the choice is to stay where you are where you are able to have a home and a job, access to your children and family, friends, or move somewhere else where there's no certainty of any of those, then it's really not a choice at all. Plus, some people can't even afford to move.
Isn't there less risk from tsunamis by living closer inland?Or are you suggesting that the whole nation of Japan should find some other place to live in? What place would you suggest that could accommodate every living Japanese person?
Natty covered part of it, but you have to realize that NO ONE is out of an earthquake zone. Some areas are more prone, but no area is immune. In Japan, the entire country is an earthquake zone. Are you truly suggesting that they simply give up the entire country?BigBallinStalin wrote:I don't really sympathize with this whole situation.
I flip on the news and from word of mouth, people indirectly tell me to feel bad about it. But I won't. I can empathize with them (of course, my emotional understanding is limited. I mean, the worst I felt was from Hurricane Katrina which killed a few acquaintances, financially ruined the lives of a couple good friends, and damage my family's house which was fully covered by the insurance).
But really, if one chooses to live near an earthquake and tsunami prone area, then they should be expected to deal with the potential consequences of their own decisions. Sure, there's the "limitations" of choice, but really it's what people value. Obviously, those who continue to live in areas that are prone to natural disasters (like New Orleans) do so because they value living in such an environment more so than living somewhere else. So, it's still their choice to live there.
Look BBS, if you eliminate all earthquake zones and flood zones you would literally be left with almost no place for people to live. In fact, there would be nowhere left, because even Kansas has had earthquakes in time.BigBallinStalin wrote:
Certainty for securing a job elsewhere can be further reduced by taking certain steps. The availability of one's options are largely determined by one's own actions. In order to expand one's immediate limitations, one should take certain actions to expand one's options--like going online, downloading a language program, and learning a foreign language for $0.00 plus the cost of time spent practicing it. As for affordability of moving, save money or choose to not move (adjust one's consumption habits, reduce costs, etc.).
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Sure, at times people are "rationally irrational," yet they'll still act in their perceived best interests.got tonkaed wrote:This also implies that people are far more rational actors than they probably should be given credit for. If it were so straightforward, every single individual on the planet should properly assess their own demands and employable traits, identify precisely under which setting they could maximize their chances for success (using a few carefully defined metrics for what constitutes success - chosen under careful consideration by the individual) and then follow up with this information in the most expedient way possible.
"Blame" carries a lot of meaning that's open to interpretation. I'm not blaming them in the sense that I'm not attributing to their decisions the idea that they were either wrong or right. That's up to others to decide amongst themselves.got tonkaed wrote:Blaming the victim is usually a rationale that falls short for a variety of reasons. Blaming people who live in Japan for what has happened to them would fall under this concept. You may or may not feel compelled to grieve for the people of Japan or take any of your resources or time in order to ameliorate the situation that has occurred, but there are more intellectually honest things than the rationale posted in the op.
You seem to be under the impression you choose where you are born and to whom.BigBallinStalin wrote: I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
You are using it as a justification for your own stated lack of sympathy in the current situation. While you could use other words, blame is certainly among ones that could been seen accurately. It doesn't matter what synonym you chose to pick, though I personally feel "responsiblityfortheconsequencesofone'sowndecisionsandthusidontfeelmorallycompelledtofeelsorryforthemordoanythingaboutitbecausethecircumstancesthatledtothisincidentdonthaveaperfectmirrorinmyownlifeandthereforeichoosetointellectuallydisregardthem" is a bit unwieldy and I'd probably just stick with something simpler.BigBallinStalin wrote:Sure, at times people are "rationally irrational," yet they'll still act in their perceived best interests.got tonkaed wrote:This also implies that people are far more rational actors than they probably should be given credit for. If it were so straightforward, every single individual on the planet should properly assess their own demands and employable traits, identify precisely under which setting they could maximize their chances for success (using a few carefully defined metrics for what constitutes success - chosen under careful consideration by the individual) and then follow up with this information in the most expedient way possible.
And certainly there's no such thing as perfect information, so people must make decisions based on some insufficient level of information, yet they're still making a decision.
"Blame" carries a lot of meaning that's open to interpretation. I'm not blaming them in the sense that I'm not attributing to their decisions the idea that they were either wrong or right. That's up to others to decide amongst themselves.got tonkaed wrote:Blaming the victim is usually a rationale that falls short for a variety of reasons. Blaming people who live in Japan for what has happened to them would fall under this concept. You may or may not feel compelled to grieve for the people of Japan or take any of your resources or time in order to ameliorate the situation that has occurred, but there are more intellectually honest things than the rationale posted in the op.
I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
But, these places vary in risk. What are the chances of Kansas getting hit by a tsunami?PLAYER57832 wrote:Look BBS, if you eliminate all earthquake zones and flood zones you would literally be left with almost no place for people to live. In fact, there would be nowhere left, because even Kansas has had earthquakes in time.BigBallinStalin wrote:
Certainty for securing a job elsewhere can be further reduced by taking certain steps. The availability of one's options are largely determined by one's own actions. In order to expand one's immediate limitations, one should take certain actions to expand one's options--like going online, downloading a language program, and learning a foreign language for $0.00 plus the cost of time spent practicing it. As for affordability of moving, save money or choose to not move (adjust one's consumption habits, reduce costs, etc.).
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I hear state-funded libraries provide extremely cheap access to the internet. Besides, one doesn't need to learn a foreign language to mitigate one's risk exposure to the consequences of a tsunami. Move inland a five miles.PLAYER57832 wrote:And per those other things... they require a GREAT DEAL of skill and even finances. Many poor people don't even have computers, for example.
They're still responsible for their own actions, and I don't need to feel morally compelled to sympathize for them.got tonkaed wrote:You are using it as a justification for your own stated lack of sympathy in the current situation. While you could use other words, blame is certainly among ones that could been seen accurately. It doesn't matter what synonym you chose to pick, though I personally feel "responsiblityfortheconsequencesofone'sowndecisionsandthusidontfeelmorallycompelledtofeelsorryforthemordoanythingaboutitbecausethecircumstancesthatledtothisincidentdonthaveaperfectmirrorinmyownlifeandthereforeichoosetointellectuallydisregardthem" is a bit unwieldy and I'd probably just stick with something simpler.BigBallinStalin wrote:Sure, at times people are "rationally irrational," yet they'll still act in their perceived best interests.got tonkaed wrote:This also implies that people are far more rational actors than they probably should be given credit for. If it were so straightforward, every single individual on the planet should properly assess their own demands and employable traits, identify precisely under which setting they could maximize their chances for success (using a few carefully defined metrics for what constitutes success - chosen under careful consideration by the individual) and then follow up with this information in the most expedient way possible.
And certainly there's no such thing as perfect information, so people must make decisions based on some insufficient level of information, yet they're still making a decision.
"Blame" carries a lot of meaning that's open to interpretation. I'm not blaming them in the sense that I'm not attributing to their decisions the idea that they were either wrong or right. That's up to others to decide amongst themselves.got tonkaed wrote:Blaming the victim is usually a rationale that falls short for a variety of reasons. Blaming people who live in Japan for what has happened to them would fall under this concept. You may or may not feel compelled to grieve for the people of Japan or take any of your resources or time in order to ameliorate the situation that has occurred, but there are more intellectually honest things than the rationale posted in the op.
I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
Id recommend "blame" personally.
I'm not under that impression, but one does choose where to continue to live.PLAYER57832 wrote:You seem to be under the impression you choose where you are born and to whom.BigBallinStalin wrote: I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
Most people just don't have that ability, sorry.
My whole claim is that you are using the wrong transition here. You are essentially using "so" and instead of just coming and saying that (which you sort of do in this post and the next) you are using "and" instead.They're still responsible for their own actions, and I don't need to feel morally compelled to sympathize for them.
I see, so where should the entire country of Japan, not to mention the Populations of California, Oregon, Washinton, Alaska... etc go? Do you have room for them in YOUR townBigBallinStalin wrote:I'm not under that impression, but one does choose where to continue to live.PLAYER57832 wrote:You seem to be under the impression you choose where you are born and to whom.BigBallinStalin wrote: I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
Most people just don't have that ability, sorry.
Oh, I see, you just don't think people who live in any of those areas deserve to have children!BigBallinStalin wrote:Either way, they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky.
Clearly, Japan needs it's own Israel. I suggest we give them Manchuria. I'm sure the Chinese won't have a problem with that at all.natty_dread wrote:Or are you suggesting that the whole nation of Japan should find some other place to live in? What place would you suggest that could accommodate every living Japanese person?
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I like this.got tonkaed wrote:My whole claim is that you are using the wrong transition here. You are essentially using "so" and instead of just coming and saying that (which you sort of do in this post and the next) you are using "and" instead.They're still responsible for their own actions, and I don't need to feel morally compelled to sympathize for them.
I don't actually disagree with the part that I bolded from your statement and do maintain most people have a high degree of arbitration in how they define moral decisions. So much has been argued many different times and persuasively enough if people were bothered enough to hunt down some books on philosophy.
Having said that though, you should be prepared for people to look upon such a publicly stated opinion with a fair amount of disdain or disgust. Possibly in part because we are in some ways socially conditioned to react to media accounts of these disasters and quite possibly also in part because people just simply don't draw the same lines in regards to morality that you are drawing here.
For me, I still claim the italicized part of your statement is an awfully weak justification for the viewpoint. As you have suggested perfect information is far from existence and some of the other conditions related to decision making cited by you in this thread are very easy to be criticize.
Believe what you want to believe and justify it however you'd like to be honest. But don't expect it to be particularly persuasive or engaging if you are going to justify it from such a weak and assailable position.
It's not up to me to decide for others, for no one has such knowledge to do so. It's up to them to decide for themselves based on the information they decide to collect.PLAYER57832 wrote:I see, so where should the entire country of Japan, not to mention the Populations of California, Oregon, Washinton, Alaska... etc go? Do you have room for them in YOUR townBigBallinStalin wrote:I'm not under that impression, but one does choose where to continue to live.PLAYER57832 wrote:You seem to be under the impression you choose where you are born and to whom.BigBallinStalin wrote: I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
Most people just don't have that ability, sorry.
Bravo, PLAYER. Care to bring up any dumber claims that weren't in my posts?PLAYER57832 wrote:Oh, I see, you just don't think people who live in any of those areas deserve to have children!BigBallinStalin wrote:Either way, they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky.
May I ask, where do you live and where you were born?(roughly.. region, don't need exact town unless you wish to reveal it)
Except, that is EXACTLY what you said.BigBallinStalin wrote:It's not up to me to decide for others, for no one has such knowledge to do so. It's up to them to decide for themselves based on the information they decide to collect.PLAYER57832 wrote:I see, so where should the entire country of Japan, not to mention the Populations of California, Oregon, Washinton, Alaska... etc go? Do you have room for them in YOUR townBigBallinStalin wrote:I'm not under that impression, but one does choose where to continue to live.PLAYER57832 wrote:You seem to be under the impression you choose where you are born and to whom.BigBallinStalin wrote: I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
Most people just don't have that ability, sorry.
They're still responsible for the consequences of their own decisions. It's a risk they take for living in earthquake-prone areas. I'm not saying that's wrong or right. They just value living there more so than else where.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Bravo, PLAYER. Care to bring up any dumber claims that weren't in my posts?PLAYER57832 wrote:Oh, I see, you just don't think people who live in any of those areas deserve to have children!BigBallinStalin wrote:Either way, they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky.
May I ask, where do you live and where you were born?(roughly.. region, don't need exact town unless you wish to reveal it)
Have you been declared legally insane?PLAYER57832 wrote:Except, that is EXACTLY what you said.BigBallinStalin wrote:Bravo, PLAYER. Care to bring up any dumber claims that weren't in my posts?PLAYER57832 wrote:Oh, I see, you just don't think people who live in any of those areas deserve to have children!BigBallinStalin wrote:Either way, they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky.
May I ask, where do you live and where you were born?(roughly.. region, don't need exact town unless you wish to reveal it)
I will repat for you, again
BBS said: Either way, they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky
See, you ARE claiming it is a choice.. and a stupid one.
Or did you not realize that the entire nation of Japan is an earthquake zone?
I said Earthquakes. Mid continental quakes are among the greatest in magnitude. And, there have been mini tremors. That "one has not happened yet" in no way means it won't happen (and, actually there was a HUGE quake a few thousand years ago).BigBallinStalin wrote:But, these places vary in risk. What are the chances of Kansas getting hit by a tsunami?PLAYER57832 wrote:Look BBS, if you eliminate all earthquake zones and flood zones you would literally be left with almost no place for people to live. In fact, there would be nowhere left, because even Kansas has had earthquakes in time.BigBallinStalin wrote:
Certainty for securing a job elsewhere can be further reduced by taking certain steps. The availability of one's options are largely determined by one's own actions. In order to expand one's immediate limitations, one should take certain actions to expand one's options--like going online, downloading a language program, and learning a foreign language for $0.00 plus the cost of time spent practicing it. As for affordability of moving, save money or choose to not move (adjust one's consumption habits, reduce costs, etc.).
.
I hear state-funded libraries provide extremely cheap access to the internet. [/quote] IF you are lucky enough to have access AND you can get in during the limited access times. PLUS, many of those libraries do not allow downloads and downloads are necessary for most language programs.PLAYER57832 wrote:And per those other things... they require a GREAT DEAL of skill and even finances. Many poor people don't even have computers, for example.
Did you catch those pictures of the town obliterated 6 miles inland? Or, you mentioned katrina.. did you happen to note the distances involved there?BigBallinStalin wrote:Besides, one doesn't need to learn a foreign language to mitigate one's risk exposure to the consequences of a tsunami. Move inland a five miles.
But abilities are inherited. AND, if you live in a poorer environment you don't truly have the ability to acquire the skills, either.BigBallinStalin wrote:Skills are acquired, not inherently earned.
BigBallinStalin wrote: I will concede that people with significant "learning disabilities" will have a rough time.
Player, no matter how many times I type with you, you never fail to amaze me. Your logic is outstandingly insane. You shift my earlier positions into something else, and then beat them down. It's a waste of time to argue with you because you'll just change what I said, and then beat it down.PLAYER57832 wrote:IF you are lucky enough to have access AND you can get in during the limited access times. PLUS, many of those libraries do not allow downloads and downloads are necessary for most language programs.PLAYER57832 wrote:I said Earthquakes. Mid continental quakes are among the greatest in magnitude. And, there have been mini tremors. That "one has not happened yet" in no way means it won't happen (and, actually there was a HUGE quake a few thousand years ago).BigBallinStalin wrote:But, these places vary in risk. What are the chances of Kansas getting hit by a tsunami?PLAYER57832 wrote:Look BBS, if you eliminate all earthquake zones and flood zones you would literally be left with almost no place for people to live. In fact, there would be nowhere left, because even Kansas has had earthquakes in time.BigBallinStalin wrote:
Certainty for securing a job elsewhere can be further reduced by taking certain steps. The availability of one's options are largely determined by one's own actions. In order to expand one's immediate limitations, one should take certain actions to expand one's options--like going online, downloading a language program, and learning a foreign language for $0.00 plus the cost of time spent practicing it. As for affordability of moving, save money or choose to not move (adjust one's consumption habits, reduce costs, etc.).
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BUT-- Kansas very much has tornadoes. The WAY the damage occurs is irrelevant. The fact is that natural disasters hit almost everywhere. Ergo, your theory that they can just move somewhere else is nonsensical. All that does is trade one risk for another. It does not solve the fundamental problem that disasters happen and cause damage.I hear state-funded libraries provide extremely cheap access to the internet.PLAYER57832 wrote:And per those other things... they require a GREAT DEAL of skill and even finances. Many poor people don't even have computers, for example.
Did you catch those pictures of the town obliterated 6 miles inland? Or, you mentioned katrina.. did you happen to note the distances involved there?BigBallinStalin wrote:Besides, one doesn't need to learn a foreign language to mitigate one's risk exposure to the consequences of a tsunami. Move inland a five miles.
Besides, the whole idea that you can just move away from a disaster is idiotic or means you don't truly understand where disasters hit.
I REPEAT: THERE IS NO PLACE ON EARTH THAT IS TRULY SAFE! Your idea is nonsensical.
But abilities are inherited. AND, if you live in a poorer environment you don't truly have the ability to acquire the skills, either.BigBallinStalin wrote:Skills are acquired, not inherently earned.
BigBallinStalin wrote: I will concede that people with significant "learning disabilities" will have a rough time.![]()
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and kids in a bad school district, kids with parents who "don't have a clue", etc, etc, etc.
Your ignorance or plain refusal to understand facts is amazing.
jay_a2j wrote:hey if any1 would like me to make them a signature or like an avator just let me no, my sig below i did, and i also did "panther 88" so i can do something like that for u if ud like...