Japan's Disaster and Morals

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Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

I don't really sympathize with this whole situation.

I flip on the news and from word of mouth, people indirectly tell me to feel bad about it. But I won't. I can empathize with them (of course, my emotional understanding is limited. I mean, the worst I felt was from Hurricane Katrina which killed a few acquaintances, financially ruined the lives of a couple good friends, and damage my family's house which was fully covered by the insurance).

But really, if one chooses to live near an earthquake and tsunami prone area, then they should be expected to deal with the potential consequences of their own decisions. Sure, there's the "limitations" of choice, but really it's what people value. Obviously, those who continue to live in areas that are prone to natural disasters (like New Orleans) do so because they value living in such an environment more so than living somewhere else. So, it's still their choice to live there.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by natty dread »

It's not that simple.

Many people can't choose where they live. Not really. Say you only know the language of your home country. That means that it would be difficult to move abroad. It would be difficult to get work anywhere else.

And what about children, family, work... there are lots of practical reasons for an individual to not be able to move somewhere else.

Sure, you always have a "choice". But if the choice is to stay where you are where you are able to have a home and a job, access to your children and family, friends, or move somewhere else where there's no certainty of any of those, then it's really not a choice at all. Plus, some people can't even afford to move.


Or are you suggesting that the whole nation of Japan should find some other place to live in? What place would you suggest that could accommodate every living Japanese person?
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by got tonkaed »

This also implies that people are far more rational actors than they probably should be given credit for. If it were so straightforward, every single individual on the planet should properly assess their own demands and employable traits, identify precisely under which setting they could maximize their chances for success (using a few carefully defined metrics for what constitutes success - chosen under careful consideration by the individual) and then follow up with this information in the most expedient way possible.

Blaming the victim is usually a rationale that falls short for a variety of reasons. Blaming people who live in Japan for what has happened to them would fall under this concept. You may or may not feel compelled to grieve for the people of Japan or take any of your resources or time in order to ameliorate the situation that has occurred, but there are more intellectually honest things than the rationale posted in the op.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

natty_dread wrote:It's not that simple.

Many people can't choose where they live. Not really. Say you only know the language of your home country. That means that it would be difficult to move abroad. It would be difficult to get work anywhere else.

And what about children, family, work... there are lots of practical reasons for an individual to not be able to move somewhere else.


Sure, you always have a "choice". But if the choice is to stay where you are where you are able to have a home and a job, access to your children and family, friends, or move somewhere else where there's no certainty of any of those, then it's really not a choice at all. Plus, some people can't even afford to move.
There's still a decision being made, so it's still a choice, which is why I inserted that whole spiel about what people value and how that determines how people make decisions.

One could choose not to have kids (and if they f*ck up, then have them at the wrong time or at the wrong place, then they must deal with the consequences of their own decisions).

Certainty for securing a job elsewhere can be further reduced by taking certain steps. The availability of one's options are largely determined by one's own actions. In order to expand one's immediate limitations, one should take certain actions to expand one's options--like going online, downloading a language program, and learning a foreign language for $0.00 plus the cost of time spent practicing it. As for affordability of moving, save money or choose to not move (adjust one's consumption habits, reduce costs, etc.).

There's plenty of options to choose from, yet they're turned down in favor of other options. There's still a choice and decision being made.

Or are you suggesting that the whole nation of Japan should find some other place to live in? What place would you suggest that could accommodate every living Japanese person?
Isn't there less risk from tsunamis by living closer inland?

I'm not talking about abandoning all of Japan, so there's no need to ask such an asinine question. I'm talking about the risks people take based on where they decide to live, and the consequences associated with it. Given that, I don't find it worthy enough to sympathize for people who choose to live in certain areas and take certain risks.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by PLAYER57832 »

BigBallinStalin wrote:I don't really sympathize with this whole situation.

I flip on the news and from word of mouth, people indirectly tell me to feel bad about it. But I won't. I can empathize with them (of course, my emotional understanding is limited. I mean, the worst I felt was from Hurricane Katrina which killed a few acquaintances, financially ruined the lives of a couple good friends, and damage my family's house which was fully covered by the insurance).

But really, if one chooses to live near an earthquake and tsunami prone area, then they should be expected to deal with the potential consequences of their own decisions. Sure, there's the "limitations" of choice, but really it's what people value. Obviously, those who continue to live in areas that are prone to natural disasters (like New Orleans) do so because they value living in such an environment more so than living somewhere else. So, it's still their choice to live there.
Natty covered part of it, but you have to realize that NO ONE is out of an earthquake zone. Some areas are more prone, but no area is immune. In Japan, the entire country is an earthquake zone. Are you truly suggesting that they simply give up the entire country?

Second, every area has some disaster potential. i have the least sympathy for flood victims because unlike Earthquakes, which are very difficult to engineer against or predict, floods are almost 100% predictable. Not exactly when, but where. AND, it is relatively easy (compared to earthquakes) to plan against it. Katrina, ironically enough was one of the exceptions because so many people were flat out encouraged to move into previous flood zones by the Corps of Engineers with the promise of levi protection. That, and many folks of color (black, creole, etc.) were plain refused the ability to live anywhere else but the places whites rejected.. this even into the 60's.

I DO think that we need to modify the US disaster insurance program. I see no reason why I should have to bear a large portion of insurance burden for New Orleans or CA. That said, as I noted above, and as natty noted, its a lot more complicated than that.

Among other issues, you have been an eager proponent of "if there are no jobs.. move to where they are". The truth is jobs often are in these disaster areas. New Orleans is a busy area because it is a port. Ironically enough, note that the old New Orleans portions survived. Why? Because people there knew about floods and did not rely on, could not rely on things like levis. (setting aside the people of color issue, which has to be counted as a different issue entirely). In many cases, there are things other than simply building levis that would make areas far more flood resistant AND cause less environmental damage. But, even now, people lean toward levis because they are cheaper and quicker and people somehow feel they understand them better.

What would I like to see?

Flood insurance in particular would only cover the initial loss. As natty indicated, many people did not have a choice, still really do not. So, to penalize them now, when they have essentially been given a "promise" (moral hazard, but it was there) of restoration, is not right. HOWEVER, they will not be allowed to rebuild. Or, if they do the new structure will not be rebuilt. This should be combined with a property "buy back" program. These areas might be eventually open for agriculture, parks or other "soft" uses that do not harm and perhaps benefit the public good (note, I mean not just parks, but breeding areas for fish, wildlife and such along with agricultural uses). It WILL cost money up front and that might seem a bad bargain. However, if you look back to Yosemite and Yellowstone, you see that they, too were considered to not be the best of bargains initially. Thank Heavans Teddy Roosevelt, etc had the foresight to save them for us. AND, note, I am talking about areas that truly should not ever have been built upon (not without some serious modification to the structures). Areas protected by levis and dams would be fully insured and protected, but in the case of levis more serious consideration will go into whether these should be restored. In New Orleans, for example, the decision was made to allow some areas to remain flood zones. I am not up to speed no the nitty gritty details, but I support the general idea that too much was done in the 1950's. The lake should not have bee cut off as it was. I leave the details up to those who live there and have expertise now, but the general idea is good.

Dams, of course are a tad different. We do very much depend on dams for our water, electricity, etc. AND, they actually create a risk that did not, historically exist. Any damage from a dam failure should be fully covered because it was caused by people. This also includes some areas that never flooded historically, but now do because of levis (parts of the upper Mississippi, for example, fall intot this category).

Anyway, that type of a plan makes more sense than a simple "tought luck, your own fault".
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by PLAYER57832 »

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Certainty for securing a job elsewhere can be further reduced by taking certain steps. The availability of one's options are largely determined by one's own actions. In order to expand one's immediate limitations, one should take certain actions to expand one's options--like going online, downloading a language program, and learning a foreign language for $0.00 plus the cost of time spent practicing it. As for affordability of moving, save money or choose to not move (adjust one's consumption habits, reduce costs, etc.).
.
Look BBS, if you eliminate all earthquake zones and flood zones you would literally be left with almost no place for people to live. In fact, there would be nowhere left, because even Kansas has had earthquakes in time.

And per those other things... they require a GREAT DEAL of skill and even finances. Many poor people don't even have computers, for example.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

got tonkaed wrote:This also implies that people are far more rational actors than they probably should be given credit for. If it were so straightforward, every single individual on the planet should properly assess their own demands and employable traits, identify precisely under which setting they could maximize their chances for success (using a few carefully defined metrics for what constitutes success - chosen under careful consideration by the individual) and then follow up with this information in the most expedient way possible.
Sure, at times people are "rationally irrational," yet they'll still act in their perceived best interests.

And certainly there's no such thing as perfect information, so people must make decisions based on some insufficient level of information, yet they're still making a decision.
got tonkaed wrote:Blaming the victim is usually a rationale that falls short for a variety of reasons. Blaming people who live in Japan for what has happened to them would fall under this concept. You may or may not feel compelled to grieve for the people of Japan or take any of your resources or time in order to ameliorate the situation that has occurred, but there are more intellectually honest things than the rationale posted in the op.
"Blame" carries a lot of meaning that's open to interpretation. I'm not blaming them in the sense that I'm not attributing to their decisions the idea that they were either wrong or right. That's up to others to decide amongst themselves.

I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by PLAYER57832 »

BigBallinStalin wrote: I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
You seem to be under the impression you choose where you are born and to whom.

Most people just don't have that ability, sorry.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by got tonkaed »

BigBallinStalin wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:This also implies that people are far more rational actors than they probably should be given credit for. If it were so straightforward, every single individual on the planet should properly assess their own demands and employable traits, identify precisely under which setting they could maximize their chances for success (using a few carefully defined metrics for what constitutes success - chosen under careful consideration by the individual) and then follow up with this information in the most expedient way possible.
Sure, at times people are "rationally irrational," yet they'll still act in their perceived best interests.

And certainly there's no such thing as perfect information, so people must make decisions based on some insufficient level of information, yet they're still making a decision.
got tonkaed wrote:Blaming the victim is usually a rationale that falls short for a variety of reasons. Blaming people who live in Japan for what has happened to them would fall under this concept. You may or may not feel compelled to grieve for the people of Japan or take any of your resources or time in order to ameliorate the situation that has occurred, but there are more intellectually honest things than the rationale posted in the op.
"Blame" carries a lot of meaning that's open to interpretation. I'm not blaming them in the sense that I'm not attributing to their decisions the idea that they were either wrong or right. That's up to others to decide amongst themselves.

I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
You are using it as a justification for your own stated lack of sympathy in the current situation. While you could use other words, blame is certainly among ones that could been seen accurately. It doesn't matter what synonym you chose to pick, though I personally feel "responsiblityfortheconsequencesofone'sowndecisionsandthusidontfeelmorallycompelledtofeelsorryforthemordoanythingaboutitbecausethecircumstancesthatledtothisincidentdonthaveaperfectmirrorinmyownlifeandthereforeichoosetointellectuallydisregardthem" is a bit unwieldy and I'd probably just stick with something simpler.

Id recommend "blame" personally.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Certainty for securing a job elsewhere can be further reduced by taking certain steps. The availability of one's options are largely determined by one's own actions. In order to expand one's immediate limitations, one should take certain actions to expand one's options--like going online, downloading a language program, and learning a foreign language for $0.00 plus the cost of time spent practicing it. As for affordability of moving, save money or choose to not move (adjust one's consumption habits, reduce costs, etc.).
.
Look BBS, if you eliminate all earthquake zones and flood zones you would literally be left with almost no place for people to live. In fact, there would be nowhere left, because even Kansas has had earthquakes in time.
But, these places vary in risk. What are the chances of Kansas getting hit by a tsunami?
PLAYER57832 wrote:And per those other things... they require a GREAT DEAL of skill and even finances. Many poor people don't even have computers, for example.
I hear state-funded libraries provide extremely cheap access to the internet. Besides, one doesn't need to learn a foreign language to mitigate one's risk exposure to the consequences of a tsunami. Move inland a five miles.

Skills are acquired, not inherently earned. One decides on what they wish to become more proficient at. I will concede that people with significant "learning disabilities" will have a rough time.

However, one is still responsible for the consequences of one's decisions.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

got tonkaed wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
got tonkaed wrote:This also implies that people are far more rational actors than they probably should be given credit for. If it were so straightforward, every single individual on the planet should properly assess their own demands and employable traits, identify precisely under which setting they could maximize their chances for success (using a few carefully defined metrics for what constitutes success - chosen under careful consideration by the individual) and then follow up with this information in the most expedient way possible.
Sure, at times people are "rationally irrational," yet they'll still act in their perceived best interests.

And certainly there's no such thing as perfect information, so people must make decisions based on some insufficient level of information, yet they're still making a decision.
got tonkaed wrote:Blaming the victim is usually a rationale that falls short for a variety of reasons. Blaming people who live in Japan for what has happened to them would fall under this concept. You may or may not feel compelled to grieve for the people of Japan or take any of your resources or time in order to ameliorate the situation that has occurred, but there are more intellectually honest things than the rationale posted in the op.
"Blame" carries a lot of meaning that's open to interpretation. I'm not blaming them in the sense that I'm not attributing to their decisions the idea that they were either wrong or right. That's up to others to decide amongst themselves.

I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
You are using it as a justification for your own stated lack of sympathy in the current situation. While you could use other words, blame is certainly among ones that could been seen accurately. It doesn't matter what synonym you chose to pick, though I personally feel "responsiblityfortheconsequencesofone'sowndecisionsandthusidontfeelmorallycompelledtofeelsorryforthemordoanythingaboutitbecausethecircumstancesthatledtothisincidentdonthaveaperfectmirrorinmyownlifeandthereforeichoosetointellectuallydisregardthem" is a bit unwieldy and I'd probably just stick with something simpler.

Id recommend "blame" personally.
They're still responsible for their own actions, and I don't need to feel morally compelled to sympathize for them.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

Honestly, most people arbitrarily choose who to feel sorry for and who not feel sorry for. Otherwise, they'd be agonizing the deaths of thousands of people around the world everyday, but they don't. It's only at select times for select locations (e.g. mostly those places that are widely broadcasted through mainstream media). Sorry, but that tactic doesn't work on me, as it as worked on the hearts and minds of millions across the world.

Why don't people feel sorry for the innocents who are bombed weekly by the US-CIA unmanned drone operations? Where's their day-to-day coverage? (On Al-Jazeera, lol.) Why don't people feel sorry for hundreds of thousands people within central India who are ignored and oppressed by the Indian government? Why does the mainstream media label those fighting for equality as "Maoists terrorists" while the special forces of the oppressive government are somehow the liberators?

It's all arbitrary, and I'm tired of seeing people's bullshit. However, I'm willing to grant the Dalai Lama and like-minded individuals the status of "not bullshitting." That's honest compassion, honest morals that hold true for all situations.

But look at most of these people grieving about the Japanese. It's ridiculous when compared to what else happens constantly around the world. It's a knee-jerk reaction dancing to the tune of mainstream media. I'm not a fool of that game.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote: I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
You seem to be under the impression you choose where you are born and to whom.

Most people just don't have that ability, sorry.
I'm not under that impression, but one does choose where to continue to live.

Either way, they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by got tonkaed »

They're still responsible for their own actions, and I don't need to feel morally compelled to sympathize for them.
My whole claim is that you are using the wrong transition here. You are essentially using "so" and instead of just coming and saying that (which you sort of do in this post and the next) you are using "and" instead.

I don't actually disagree with the part that I bolded from your statement and do maintain most people have a high degree of arbitration in how they define moral decisions. So much has been argued many different times and persuasively enough if people were bothered enough to hunt down some books on philosophy.

Having said that though, you should be prepared for people to look upon such a publicly stated opinion with a fair amount of disdain or disgust. Possibly in part because we are in some ways socially conditioned to react to media accounts of these disasters and quite possibly also in part because people just simply don't draw the same lines in regards to morality that you are drawing here.

For me, I still claim the italicized part of your statement is an awfully weak justification for the viewpoint. As you have suggested perfect information is far from existence and some of the other conditions related to decision making cited by you in this thread are very easy to be criticize.

Believe what you want to believe and justify it however you'd like to be honest. But don't expect it to be particularly persuasive or engaging if you are going to justify it from such a weak and assailable position.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by PLAYER57832 »

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote: I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
You seem to be under the impression you choose where you are born and to whom.

Most people just don't have that ability, sorry.
I'm not under that impression, but one does choose where to continue to live.
I see, so where should the entire country of Japan, not to mention the Populations of California, Oregon, Washinton, Alaska... etc go? Do you have room for them in YOUR town
BigBallinStalin wrote:Either way, they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky.
Oh, I see, you just don't think people who live in any of those areas deserve to have children!

May I ask, where do you live and where you were born?(roughly.. region, don't need exact town unless you wish to reveal it)
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by pimpdave »

natty_dread wrote:Or are you suggesting that the whole nation of Japan should find some other place to live in? What place would you suggest that could accommodate every living Japanese person?
Clearly, Japan needs it's own Israel. I suggest we give them Manchuria. I'm sure the Chinese won't have a problem with that at all.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

got tonkaed wrote:
They're still responsible for their own actions, and I don't need to feel morally compelled to sympathize for them.
My whole claim is that you are using the wrong transition here. You are essentially using "so" and instead of just coming and saying that (which you sort of do in this post and the next) you are using "and" instead.

I don't actually disagree with the part that I bolded from your statement and do maintain most people have a high degree of arbitration in how they define moral decisions. So much has been argued many different times and persuasively enough if people were bothered enough to hunt down some books on philosophy.

Having said that though, you should be prepared for people to look upon such a publicly stated opinion with a fair amount of disdain or disgust. Possibly in part because we are in some ways socially conditioned to react to media accounts of these disasters and quite possibly also in part because people just simply don't draw the same lines in regards to morality that you are drawing here.

For me, I still claim the italicized part of your statement is an awfully weak justification for the viewpoint. As you have suggested perfect information is far from existence and some of the other conditions related to decision making cited by you in this thread are very easy to be criticize.

Believe what you want to believe and justify it however you'd like to be honest. But don't expect it to be particularly persuasive or engaging if you are going to justify it from such a weak and assailable position.
I like this.

How is this justification weak?


Also, why should one feel morally obliged to sympathize for the Japanese while ignore others groups who have even worser problems? Aren't people arbitrarily sympathizing for people who they're told to sympathize for?
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote: I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
You seem to be under the impression you choose where you are born and to whom.

Most people just don't have that ability, sorry.
I'm not under that impression, but one does choose where to continue to live.
I see, so where should the entire country of Japan, not to mention the Populations of California, Oregon, Washinton, Alaska... etc go? Do you have room for them in YOUR town
It's not up to me to decide for others, for no one has such knowledge to do so. It's up to them to decide for themselves based on the information they decide to collect.

They're still responsible for the consequences of their own decisions. It's a risk they take for living in earthquake-prone areas. I'm not saying that's wrong or right. They just value living there more so than else where.

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Either way, they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky.
Oh, I see, you just don't think people who live in any of those areas deserve to have children!

May I ask, where do you live and where you were born?(roughly.. region, don't need exact town unless you wish to reveal it)
Bravo, PLAYER. Care to bring up any dumber claims that weren't in my posts?
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by PLAYER57832 »

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote: I am stating that one is responsible for the consequences of one's own decisions. They took the gamble and got unlucky.
You seem to be under the impression you choose where you are born and to whom.

Most people just don't have that ability, sorry.
I'm not under that impression, but one does choose where to continue to live.
I see, so where should the entire country of Japan, not to mention the Populations of California, Oregon, Washinton, Alaska... etc go? Do you have room for them in YOUR town
It's not up to me to decide for others, for no one has such knowledge to do so. It's up to them to decide for themselves based on the information they decide to collect.

They're still responsible for the consequences of their own decisions. It's a risk they take for living in earthquake-prone areas. I'm not saying that's wrong or right. They just value living there more so than else where.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Either way, they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky.
Oh, I see, you just don't think people who live in any of those areas deserve to have children!

May I ask, where do you live and where you were born?(roughly.. region, don't need exact town unless you wish to reveal it)
Bravo, PLAYER. Care to bring up any dumber claims that weren't in my posts?
Except, that is EXACTLY what you said.

I will repat for you, again
BBS said: Either way, they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky
See, you ARE claiming it is a choice.. and a stupid one.
Or did you not realize that the entire nation of Japan is an earthquake zone?
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Either way, they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky.
Oh, I see, you just don't think people who live in any of those areas deserve to have children!

May I ask, where do you live and where you were born?(roughly.. region, don't need exact town unless you wish to reveal it)
Bravo, PLAYER. Care to bring up any dumber claims that weren't in my posts?
Except, that is EXACTLY what you said.

I will repat for you, again
BBS said: Either way, they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky
See, you ARE claiming it is a choice.. and a stupid one.
Or did you not realize that the entire nation of Japan is an earthquake zone?
Have you been declared legally insane?

I'm not claiming it's stupid. I'm not imposing any right or wrong behind this if you care to read what I've been typing. As I specifically stated earlier, the right or wrong of their decisions is up to the opinions of others.

"Deserving to have children" does not equal "they took the gamble and made the decisions for their own children, and they got unlucky."

You're putting that justification in there. I'm not.
PLAYER57832
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by PLAYER57832 »

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Certainty for securing a job elsewhere can be further reduced by taking certain steps. The availability of one's options are largely determined by one's own actions. In order to expand one's immediate limitations, one should take certain actions to expand one's options--like going online, downloading a language program, and learning a foreign language for $0.00 plus the cost of time spent practicing it. As for affordability of moving, save money or choose to not move (adjust one's consumption habits, reduce costs, etc.).
.
Look BBS, if you eliminate all earthquake zones and flood zones you would literally be left with almost no place for people to live. In fact, there would be nowhere left, because even Kansas has had earthquakes in time.
But, these places vary in risk. What are the chances of Kansas getting hit by a tsunami?
I said Earthquakes. Mid continental quakes are among the greatest in magnitude. And, there have been mini tremors. That "one has not happened yet" in no way means it won't happen (and, actually there was a HUGE quake a few thousand years ago).

BUT-- Kansas very much has tornadoes. The WAY the damage occurs is irrelevant. The fact is that natural disasters hit almost everywhere. Ergo, your theory that they can just move somewhere else is nonsensical. All that does is trade one risk for another. It does not solve the fundamental problem that disasters happen and cause damage.
PLAYER57832 wrote:And per those other things... they require a GREAT DEAL of skill and even finances. Many poor people don't even have computers, for example.
I hear state-funded libraries provide extremely cheap access to the internet. [/quote] IF you are lucky enough to have access AND you can get in during the limited access times. PLUS, many of those libraries do not allow downloads and downloads are necessary for most language programs.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Besides, one doesn't need to learn a foreign language to mitigate one's risk exposure to the consequences of a tsunami. Move inland a five miles.
Did you catch those pictures of the town obliterated 6 miles inland? Or, you mentioned katrina.. did you happen to note the distances involved there?

Besides, the whole idea that you can just move away from a disaster is idiotic or means you don't truly understand where disasters hit.

I REPEAT: THERE IS NO PLACE ON EARTH THAT IS TRULY SAFE! Your idea is nonsensical.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Skills are acquired, not inherently earned.
But abilities are inherited. AND, if you live in a poorer environment you don't truly have the ability to acquire the skills, either.
BigBallinStalin wrote: I will concede that people with significant "learning disabilities" will have a rough time.
:roll: :roll:
and kids in a bad school district, kids with parents who "don't have a clue", etc, etc, etc.

Your ignorance or plain refusal to understand facts is amazing.
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got tonkaed
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by got tonkaed »

The justification is weak because it does not stand up to even the remotest of criticism. I am not saying that "blaming the victim" is an universally weak justification, there are some situations in which it works quite well. However, the majority of these situations require that an individual is rather aware of all or a majority of the factors at work.

In short, this situation is not one of those situations. As has already been stated, and you have yet to disagree with (so I am assuming we can hold it as true in context), people in Japan who suffered as a result of the tsunami did so, in your estimation, with enough relevant information that they should have been able to make decisions which would have allowed them to avoid their fate. Given that they did not do so, you do not find yourself compelled to feel an inordinate amount of emotions or take extraordinary action on their behalf.

The immediate and fair question that was asked was "why was it their fault that they lived in Japan, an area which is prone to earthquakes and also possibly prone to damage from Tsunami's?"

You argued that they had enough information to then move and not moving was a choice and so on ergo....

There is the immediate difficulty when evaluating this line of reasoning in that I am inevitably going to have to reduce it down to individuals. In some ways there is a disconnect between your line of thinking in this area. Your justification is inevitably personal, while the moral outpouring which you are against is primarily social (which is another reason against your line of thinking, you are essentially comparing apples on a very large scale to oranges).

Would you have felt sorry for one individual who in a hypothetical situation, had decided to move away from Japan that day or in any relevantly short time frame, but perished in the act of moving? To what practical limit can individual responsibility maintain dominance over natural circumstances?

But for the sake of brevity (lol) lets go back to why your argument of choice and responsibility is weak. You essentially from what I have read so far, place an elevated importance on a decision that would ultimately not come from one specific choice and quite possibly from a choice that has never really been considered. Most major decisions in life (insert your preferred major decision here) come from a long series of choices and circumstances that are incredibly difficult to trace. My own decision to move to Korea for employment was certainly not a singular decision (stupid anecdotal evidence) and not a decision taken with perfect information. When making these decisions, there is a huge list of things which must be prioritized and I would be willing to bet most people do not prioritize natural disasters very high on that list of decision making. If they do, they are probably the type of person who fears flying because there is a chance that the "plane might crash" or they play the lotto because there is a chance "they might win". Either way, its not exactly a very logical or soundly reasoned hierarchical preference.

This is much of the problem with your argument. You seem to be arguing that every person who gets in a plane crash shouldn't really be worthy of much thought or action, because there was a chance they would get into a plane crash. Everyone knows plane crashes happen and everyone knows tsunamis can happen as well. That doesn't seem to stop people from flying nor does it stop people from appropriately reaching out when bad things do happen, because we realize they are bad.

To the second rather strange claim you are making, the idea of arbitrariness in moral outreach. We have both already stated that this is happening. However, I find the fact that this bothers you to be a bit strange to say the least.

We have a limited capacity to interpret and comprehend the world around us. Space matters in a large extent for who and what we care about. In the past that was because people had less opportunity to really get informed about these issues. Today it is more due to the abundance of information that people do not have time to process it all.

There are people out there who do actually care quite a bit about all of those things that you mentioned as worse than the situation in Japan. And not very surprisingly, they tend to know quite a bit more about those things than the average person off the street would. If you doubt this, by all means prepare a 5 question pop quiz about any of the issues and do a "jaywalking" segment. Presuming you get off campus far enough for it to matter, you could spin yourself into a nice little youtube side job educating the world about how much life on earth can suck at times. And you'd be molding minds, which is nice in terms of intrinsic benefits.

It is fine to say it should be different, but would you really blame the person who didn't know about all of those issues for feeling grief and wanting to donate to the people in Japan. Of course you would not, that person is reacting to a situation which is fresh in their memory and appeals to their sense of morality.

If in your position you find that there are far more compelling things in this world to attract your time and energy and you do not wish to spend your efforts lamenting for the people of Japan that is fine. It may be quite possible to argue that this is so. But to essentially criticize people for reacting to something that is put in front of them to react to, and people choose to react in a manner that is appropriate given the situation, is again suspect.
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BigBallinStalin
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Certainty for securing a job elsewhere can be further reduced by taking certain steps. The availability of one's options are largely determined by one's own actions. In order to expand one's immediate limitations, one should take certain actions to expand one's options--like going online, downloading a language program, and learning a foreign language for $0.00 plus the cost of time spent practicing it. As for affordability of moving, save money or choose to not move (adjust one's consumption habits, reduce costs, etc.).
.
Look BBS, if you eliminate all earthquake zones and flood zones you would literally be left with almost no place for people to live. In fact, there would be nowhere left, because even Kansas has had earthquakes in time.
But, these places vary in risk. What are the chances of Kansas getting hit by a tsunami?
I said Earthquakes. Mid continental quakes are among the greatest in magnitude. And, there have been mini tremors. That "one has not happened yet" in no way means it won't happen (and, actually there was a HUGE quake a few thousand years ago).

BUT-- Kansas very much has tornadoes. The WAY the damage occurs is irrelevant. The fact is that natural disasters hit almost everywhere. Ergo, your theory that they can just move somewhere else is nonsensical. All that does is trade one risk for another. It does not solve the fundamental problem that disasters happen and cause damage.
PLAYER57832 wrote:And per those other things... they require a GREAT DEAL of skill and even finances. Many poor people don't even have computers, for example.
I hear state-funded libraries provide extremely cheap access to the internet.
IF you are lucky enough to have access AND you can get in during the limited access times. PLUS, many of those libraries do not allow downloads and downloads are necessary for most language programs.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Besides, one doesn't need to learn a foreign language to mitigate one's risk exposure to the consequences of a tsunami. Move inland a five miles.
Did you catch those pictures of the town obliterated 6 miles inland? Or, you mentioned katrina.. did you happen to note the distances involved there?

Besides, the whole idea that you can just move away from a disaster is idiotic or means you don't truly understand where disasters hit.

I REPEAT: THERE IS NO PLACE ON EARTH THAT IS TRULY SAFE! Your idea is nonsensical.
BigBallinStalin wrote:Skills are acquired, not inherently earned.
But abilities are inherited. AND, if you live in a poorer environment you don't truly have the ability to acquire the skills, either.
BigBallinStalin wrote: I will concede that people with significant "learning disabilities" will have a rough time.
:roll: :roll:
and kids in a bad school district, kids with parents who "don't have a clue", etc, etc, etc.

Your ignorance or plain refusal to understand facts is amazing.
Player, no matter how many times I type with you, you never fail to amaze me. Your logic is outstandingly insane. You shift my earlier positions into something else, and then beat them down. It's a waste of time to argue with you because you'll just change what I said, and then beat it down.

You misinterpret and never ask for clarification.

You'll argue to death over the most minute points (and even irrelevant points) while ignoring the main point.

Do you suffer from Alzheimer's disease or any intellectually-debilitating disease? If yes, then that would explain why you have such a difficult time in debating with anyone on anything. I honestly sympathize for your lack of control of your own problem.
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pimpdave
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by pimpdave »

I would like to discuss the possibility of transplanting Japan to China, and force all of the Chinese in the new Japanese area out.
jay_a2j wrote:hey if any1 would like me to make them a signature or like an avator just let me no, my sig below i did, and i also did "panther 88" so i can do something like that for u if ud like...
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BigBallinStalin
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

Anyway, I'll maintain these stances:

I don't sympathize with the people of Japan regarding this situation because:

1) Those who were affected are responsible for the consequences of their own decisions. This is one of the costs for taking that risk.

2) This is yet another mainstream media event. There are thousands of other people dying elsewhere, yet people don't sympathize for them. Most people arbitrarily sympathize with what's popular. It's a silly game, and I choose not to play it.

To clarify, I'm not saying that their actions were right or wrong.
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