Question about various rankings

[ViperOverLord]

I've seen the various rankings. I think its great that the competition is measured regardless of the accuracy debates that will always be there. But I'm still confused about how it works. Do these rankings measure a season, specific competitions, or any and all clan challenges?

[jpcloet]

The first post should tell you what they contain.

The previous newsletter also had a quick article about ladder/rankings:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 71&start=0

My Clan's Better Than Yours - Rankings Explained by Leehar (Nemesis)

[ViperOverLord]

The first post should tell you what they contain.

The previous newsletter also had a quick article about ladder/rankings:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 71&start=0

My Clan's Better Than Yours - Rankings Explained by Leehar (Nemesis)

I read for a few posts and saw nothing. I'd appreciate a straight-up answer to the question.

[chemefreak]

The first post should tell you what they contain.

The previous newsletter also had a quick article about ladder/rankings:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 71&start=0

My Clan's Better Than Yours - Rankings Explained by Leehar (Nemesis)

I read for a few posts and saw nothing. I'd appreciate a straight-up answer to the question.

It is in the first post. It is called a "newsletter". You have to scroll about halfway through the "newsletter" and you will see the topic in a dropdown box that JPC is referring to [a dropdown box is something that you click on that will "drop down"]. I would have copied and pasted here with links but the topic is locked and I really think if you are that interested you will put some effort into it.

Every clan thinks it is the best clan. No ranking system that we currently have is perfect.

p.s. Your clan should think that it is the best...although I will tell you that it is not

[chemefreak]

I read for a few posts and saw nothing. I'd appreciate a straight-up answer to the question.

edit:

[ViperOverLord]

Edit: Really no need for this post any longer.

[ViperOverLord]

I say just lock this thread It's a good idea not to escalate anything. But if somebody wants to pm me an answer or post an answer to my question, are the (various empirical rankings) based upon a 'season,' 'official events' or any and all clan match-ups then that'd be appreciated. As the leader of a newly formed clan that would be important information for me to know.

[chemefreak]

I say just lock this thread It's a good idea not to escalate anything. But if somebody wants to pm me an answer or post an answer to my question, are the (various empirical rankings) based upon a 'season,' 'official events' or any and all clan match-ups then that'd be appreciated. As the leader of a newly formed clan that would be important information for me to know.

You have to read each individual ranking system. Chuck's power rankings are based on perception. Blitz's rankings are based on a yearly basis. ELO is based on win percentages and other factors. We are developing a ladder that should be active soon that will help with this. I think there is a detailed explanation somewhere. Once you are in the CLA it will make a lot more sense.

All of the ranking systems use different results. The base results are clan wars. Clan wars are negotiated wars that fit a certain accepted standard within the clan community. The clan league has changed over the years but basically all the clans that sign up are split into divisions and they play a certain # of games. Most ranking systems have trouble considering clan league results due to the small sampling of games versus any particular clan. The Cups or tournaments look like clan wars so they are counted on most ranking systems. Medals are a completely different story.

You just have to read the particular set of rules for any tournament that is posted. If you have a question about a tournament or event (e.g. will it be on the ladder, will it qualify for this or that) then feel free to pm the organizer or any of CDs.

[ViperOverLord]

Thank you And despite my protests if you want to call them that, I'll take at least 51 percent of the fault for all of the previous misunderstanding. All of your help is much appreciated and I'm getting a better understanding of how it works.

[ViperOverLord]

For anybody that may have some of the same questions that I had, I'm going to post this (partial) thoughtful response that someone sent me. Please note that there are value judgments that somebody may or may not agree with. But it seems like some valid insight to myself at any rate.

Here is a brief rundown of the rankings.

There are no offical CC rankings, these are all run by assorted people.

The one most accepted is Chuuucks Power Rankings

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=118748 Each clan ranks the other clans excluding themselves, and then Chuuuck compiles the rankings into one list. It works well for the Top 10-12 but beyond that it is not too accurate and becomes a popularity contest

Qwert's ranking is a ELO Ranking which looks similar to how CC points are calculated, He takes all Clan Events into account. it looks really inaccurate to me, and most people don't pay much attention to it

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=139348

Blitz compiles a list by randomly polling people. He does not include all clans and no one really knows who votes. (I did vote last time)

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=109045

This is something new that looks promising, it is a complete mathematical ranking. i don't really understand it and I don't think the OP will maintain it so it will go probably go away.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=140929

** (Name omitted, in case he wants anonymity) is working on a leap ladder that is completely mathematical that takes all clan wars (More than 41 games) into account, but it is not ready to be released

As long as the war is 41+ games it is considered offical and weighted equally with other clan wars, weather it is part of a bigger event.

[chemefreak]

All of your help is much appreciated and I'm getting a better understanding of how it works.

Hell, I've been doing clan stuff for over 3 years now...and I don't get it completely...so don't hurt yourself trying to completely understand it! Good luck with the new clan. Looked through the roster and although I've never played against anyone but you, it looks like a solid group. Feel free to pm a CD or another clan leader if you have any questions about your first challenge, etc.

[ViperOverLord]

All of your help is much appreciated and I'm getting a better understanding of how it works.

Hell, I've been doing clan stuff for over 3 years now...and I don't get it completely...so don't hurt yourself trying to completely understand it! Good luck with the new clan. Looked through the roster and although I've never played against anyone but you, it looks like a solid group. Feel free to pm a CD or another clan leader if you have any questions about your first challenge, etc.

To be honest, most of us have no experience with each other either. We look good on paper, but we probably have a long way to go chemistry-wise lol.

[FarangDemon]

For anybody that may have some of the same questions that I had, I'm going to post this (partial) thoughtful response that someone sent me. Please note that there are value judgments that somebody may or may not agree with. But it seems like some valid insight to myself at any rate.

Here is a brief rundown of the rankings.

This is something new that looks promising, it is a complete mathematical ranking. i don't really understand it and I don't think the OP will maintain it so it will go probably go away.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 8&t=140929

This one is mine. I won't get into the math because then everybody might lose interest, but here is a brief description:

1) This is a script, not just a ranking. That means anybody can use this whenever they want to automatically generate a ranking. No human has to tabulate anything. You have to just paste data into it and click a button (there is a link to the data). If you don't understand the parameters, just leave them as their default values and click the button.

2) It generates a graph of rating over time as well

3) Parameters can be used to reward clans that won with higher win margins

4) It measures how accurate it is, in terms of how often the higher ranked clan actually did beat the lower ranked. To my knowledge, this is the first ranking method that actually provides a measurement of its own accuracy. The reason why I provide it, is because since it is a script, I can easily make it perform these calculations on top of the other calculations it has to do to generate the ranking. I think nobody else has thought to provide this because since they are doing things by hand, it would be tedious to tabulate.

Regarding the comment about whether the OP will maintain it - I just want someone to maintain the DATA. The script is finished. Anyone can use it whenever they want. I just want somebody to maintain a list of all Clan War games including Clan League at a fixed URL. I'm happy to generate future rankings if someone would compile this official record of clan wars.

I think if the Clan directors or other volunteer were to maintain this official clan war results data file, it would encourage further innovation in the clan rankings field. That way, those who wish to contribute by developing scripts to generating ranking models, graphs and accuracy measurements would not be saddled with the additional burden of maintaining a data file every time a clan war concludes.

[Leehar]

Here's my article if you're interested in reading it. I obviously don't have anything on FD since his came a bit later.

My Clan's Better Than Yours - Rankings Explained by Leehar (Nemesis)

Spoiler

There's been a lot of debate lately with all these different rankings systems coming out, so after Qwert released his provisionally named ELO ranking, I decided to go out and find out what each of the creators had to say about their own and some of the other ranking systems.

We'll start by seeing what they had to say about the latest ranking system:

• Active Clan ELO ranking 2011:
  - The Active Clan Elo (or ACE) is presumably loosely based on the ELO Ranking system from Chess fame. From my understanding, it's applying the CC method of scoring whereby clans are given average scores from the useful Clan Rank add-on, and thereafter scores are gained by winning and losing. Since it's a new ranking there are obviously quite a few niggles with it, so it may just be best to adopt a 'wait and see' approach with regards to it's suitability.

  I think that i find very accurate clan ranking ,based on score and calculate in results- so far,they show quite acurate,because in 95% of all finished clan chalenges, highest ranked clan defeate lowest ranked clan when you look on average clan point score. Ofcourse for full effect need to get more and more results,because these is only a begining of 2011 year.

  qwert's is the biggest joke by whoever has the best winning %, for example we barely beat your clan 21-20, and lets say the clan ranked 21st beats the clan ranked 40th like 50 to 10, does that mean the 21st clan is better thna nemesis and thota? NO, but, qwert would have you beleive yes, seriously, it is a disgrace and joke to anyone who knows anything.

  ELO - The first ladder I used was founded in ELO and the disadvantage is lack of data. This works well for very active clans and with gaming privs, the active clans essentially have their own ladder. This ELO fits better with the times than my original ELO.

  I think Qwert's ELO rankings are interesting. I see some value in having them just to look at but I feel they are impossible to actually look at and give any credit to them as an actual ranking of the clans. If credit was given to them and that is what clans used to prove themselves then there would be too many top clans just trying to take on smaller clans in order to run their win% up and move themselves up the rankings. Obviously this would not be a showing of how good a clan really is but instead just who can manipulate the points the best.

• Perception of Top 10 Clans:
  - There has been some vigorous debate in the Perceptions thread lately about the suitability and application of the ranking, perhaps even some of the mudslinging between this and the Elo was spurred by my search for comments on the topic. It certainly has been informative with regards to historical data, but going forward we will need to see how it can adapt and ensure it has continuing purpose not supplemented by the Power Rankings

  chuuuucks and mine are the most accurate as it involves the clans and clan leaders to vote and poll and opinion's based on clans experience with war agains teach other and overall competition and records

  I think Blitz's Perception of Top 10 clans is really a great tool for past years and showing the history of who has been good. I think today it needs to evolve a little. First, I think their is a misunderstanding through the community and the people who vote of what exactly the votes are supposed to represent. Are they a snapshot at the end of each year of how the true rankings of the clans is perceived or do they represent a list of how actual clans performed in that given year only not taking into account past years? If they are just a snapshot of the rankings then in that case I feel they are very similar to the Power Rankings and there may no longer be use to run both side by side. I feel Blitz did a great job of going back and putting together a list for past years because it is impossible to go back and ask the people of those times to vote, but I feel moving forward with new rankings coming out, there needs to be a more defined process of exactly what his ranking represents and a fair system of how it is calculated.

  Well name say all-first page dont have any explanation on what parameters blitz decide who its second,third,fourt....(we know that no1 place are reserved for THOTA).These is totaly subjective formula for clan ranking.

  This has been a limited pool of contributors, but at least has some of the history of clans.

• Power Rankings:
  -An important compilation that seems to accurately gather clans based on Perceptions, perhaps it still has a ways to go before clans have accurate enough data to make informed decisions on clan strengths, but it's gone a long way in determining positioning in the clan structure.

  As far as Power Rankings go, I feel they do a lot to satisfy the biggest question on everyone's mind. "Who does everyone think is the best?" By no means do I think they are the most accurate way to rank the clans, but I think they take the important step of at least letting you know how all of the clans are viewed by their peers. And I do think they do get fairly accurate of rating most clans in the area they probably are really in. I think the clans that are ranked the most inaccurately are the medium range clans who are pretty good but don't have a lot of presence in the forums and don't have any particularly popular players. I think this is largely just due to most people don't know who they are or take the time to look.

  chuuuucks and mine are the most accurate as it involves the clans and clan leaders to vote and poll and opinion's based on clans experience with war agains teach other and overall competition and records

  Very good explane definicion of hes ranking,and its based on how other clan think who its in what place. Its not related on score and results,and its can be subjective ranking.

  Also based on perception but is more inclusive and has a better structure. I would prefer data based ladders, however, this one is very close to the leap ladder I'm currently working on. I would love to automate this and I have very distant plans to do so.

• Clan Wars Rankings Ladder - 2 Year Weighted RPI:
  -A mathematical ranking that seemed to get a lot of heat when it was established, tho largely sidelined lately and the data is now obviously pretty stagnant. A lot of effort went into the formulae and I'm sure it still holds appeal for those looking for a numerical benchmark.

  Factually based on results and is the best ladder out there but is not being updated as I'm currently trying to get a leap ladder in place.

  Well i look on table and formula explanation,and i must say that i find myself very confusing to understand what its what. To long formula,and to much comlicated for me-one thing what comlicated even more its A and B clans, Also its based on 2 years, and i think that maybe its best to try to create board only from 2011 games,and will be interesting to see,if mine ranking are similar to these ranking.

  Jp's is flawed by idiotic math and he weighs 8 and 16 game challenges in small legues for clan seasons too heavy, it is too small a sample of games, the challenges should not count at all unless they are 40 games or more

  I think the RPI is good work and I give a lot of credit to jpcloet for all of the work he puts in. I think it is largely criticized because I system like that is just tough to run with such little data among most of the clans and such varying results that are interlocking between the clans. You can have a clan that has beat two great clans near the top of the rankings while another who has beat 2 mediocre clans in the middle but when running an RPI it can be very difficult to distinguish between these two clans when they don't have any common opponents. It is a tough problem to find a solution for and I am not sure I could do any better than jpcloet is already doing which is probably why I have never tried.

• There are also rumors flying about the new leap ladder currently being discussed in the CLA, so some of our respondents had a bit to say on that as well:

  The model is built, however, it is currently in the CLA for discussion on how to make it work as it does require some foundations as to who can challenge and when and what format etc. I can see it being in place for the fall of 2011.

  I am more excited to see his next leap ladder he is going to come out with. Although I think there will be times of certain leaps that it will appear to be inaccurate, I think it will give each clan the most fair chance at moving themselves and will make it more exciting in the clan world to constantly try to improve your standing.

So there you have it, the word from the horses mouths themselves. Whats best is obviously largely up to debate, but hopefully we all have a deeper insight on the ranking systems available for our perusal.
I'd also like everyone to give a round of applause to these fine, upstanding citizens who took time away from their busy schedules to give us their views. We all know Qwert as an established map maker, and perhaps play often on his numerous maps, Blitzaholic is obviously always involved in his various Conquering endeavors and the many stat threads in General Discussions, Chuuuuck while working on releasing the eagerly awaited Power Rankings also had to organise and ensure both editions of the Conqueror's Cup are progressing successfully, and then of course there's jpcloet our Head Clan Director who tirelessly works behind the scenes on all clan issues.

Just click on 'show'

[Qwert]

""Qwert's ranking is a ELO Ranking which looks similar to how CC points are calculated, He takes all Clan Events into account. it looks really inaccurate to me, and most people don't pay much attention to it""

I dont understand why some people so desperatly fight against any new thing what some other people want to create. its inaccurate ,but not explane in what way its innacurate. Please next time try to much more explane what its wrong with these ranking, but if you dont pay attention,why you even mention mine ranking

[chemefreak]

Me thinks Leehar's efforts are worthy of a sticky here in the clan thread. Let's continue the discussions there. Cheers to ViperOverLord for asking the question and Leehar for doing all the work