Reevaluating Point Dumping

[Fircoal]

Concise description:

• Making Point Dumping a stripping of premium on first offense and a total website ban on second offense

Specifics/Details:

• It seems with the result of Commander this has crossed my mind again. As it stands the punishment for point dumping is a website ban with no chance of return. This seems awfully draconian to me. The #1 rule of Conquer Club is no multis. It is written in the rules and its even on the sign up page. It's obvious why it's here as if people were able to create multiple accounts they could just get around the 4 game limit and cheat in order to inflate their score. Obviously this center rule with many reasons for it not to happen should carry a big punishment. This punishment is a stripping of premium for premium accounts and a ban for freemium accounts until they pay for premium. Now if this is the big number 1 rule then why is that point dumping carries a bigger punishment in that one can't buy back in. Yes point dumping is a crime and should be one, but compared to multiple accounts it's nothing. Even secret diplomacy is worse. I mean there's a reason that these two rules are #1 and #2 of the site. I'd even say farming accounts is worse. All of these if broken lead to other people having unpleasureable experience. Point dumping does not lead to this, and it doesn’t have any tangible benefit for the user. That’s not to say that’s it’s alright, as others can benefit from one’s point dumping unfairly, but it does lead one to think: “Why is point dumping something infinitely less harmful than multiple accounts punished harder?” The answer is that it shouldn’t be. Point dumping may be bad but it’s not as bad as compromising the game for others or loading an account with unwarranted points via multis or farming, or even schemes. Furthermore it seems much more like what a reasonable person would do in a fit of rage. There are probably players who do like the site but in rage just decided to loose all their points. Surely they shouldn’t be permabanned for one mistake that has nowhere near the amount of evil intent that multis have. Also there are many more point dumping cases were someone who wasn’t the user got onto the account and decided to dump their points to spite the account holder. There is really no reason to punish point dumpers this severely.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:

• Positive players on the site that have a lapse of judgment will be allowed a second chance
• Players who are set up to lose points will have a second chance
• Players who truly love the site and want to continue to play will be able to with a fee.
• More money for Conquerclub from less shady people

I’m sorry if this is already what the case is, but in the cases of Commander, Brann, Snowman*, and Buddyysystem, this wasn’t the case.

[greenoaks]

this suggestion makes sense

[jigger1986]

I agree with this 100%.

Point dumping is really a secondary offense that is the result of a more serious one.
Players who create multiple accounts to invites themselves to games to dump points.
Players abusing other accounts to dump points.

I would think that a "true" case of point dumping (where the offender is break no more CC rules) is rare.
Im sure there are some people who get pissed off enough and for whatever reason leave the site for months at a time. I have 100+ games going right now, If I got so pissed of tonight that I didnt come back for 2 months would it be considered point dumping? Would I never be allowed to return as a paying customer?
Surely there are better options for dealing with this issue.

Great suggestion Fircoal!

-jig

[TheForgivenOne]

[*]It seems with the result of Commander this has crossed my mind again. As it stands the punishment for point dumping is a website ban with no chance of return. This seems awfully draconian to me.

I'm not sure if it is a website ban with no return. Because a few players that were caught with doing it, are back. Kid_A and Rowney were both banned for Point Dumping, but seem to have returned.

[greenoaks]

I agree with this 100%.

Point dumping is really a secondary offense that is the result of a more serious one.
Players who create multiple accounts to invites themselves to games to dump points.
Players abusing other accounts to dump points.

I would think that a "true" case of point dumping (where the offender is break no more CC rules) is rare.
Im sure there are some people who get pissed off enough and for whatever reason leave the site for months at a time. I have 100+ games going right now, If I got so pissed of tonight that I didnt come back for 2 months would it be considered point dumping? Would I never be allowed to return as a paying customer?
Surely there are better options for dealing with this issue.

Great suggestion Fircoal!

-jig

a couple of years ago i deadbeated out of approx. 150 games, abandoned a few tourneys and was never accused of point dumping.

i think they look at the type of games that turns are missed in.

[Fircoal]

[*]It seems with the result of Commander this has crossed my mind again. As it stands the punishment for point dumping is a website ban with no chance of return. This seems awfully draconian to me.

I'm not sure if it is a website ban with no return. Because a few players that were caught with doing it, are back. Kid_A and Rowney were both banned for Point Dumping, but seem to have returned.

Ah ok. I wasn't sure either which is why I posted at the bottom that this is based off of the cases that I've seen happen.

[Victor Sullivan]

I support this. I one-screw-up-and-you're-done policy doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

[hmsps]

If people know the punishment meets the crime then why dumb down? Its like saying your first murder gets a slap on the wrist but your 2nd one.......

[Fircoal]

If people know the punishment meets the crime then why dumb down? Its like saying your first murder gets a slap on the wrist but your 2nd one.......

Point Dumping =/= Murder

Thank you for the analogy that makes no sensezel.

[greenoaks]

If people know the punishment meets the crime then why dumb down? Its like saying your first murder gets a slap on the wrist but your 2nd one.......

the punishment is the most severe available but the crime does not make the top 2 for this site.

either make point dumping the number one thing we must not do (even before creating multiple accounts) or reduce the punishment to at least equal to what you currently get for creating a multi.

[TheForgivenOne]

I was talking behind the scenes with an individual, and we came up with this.

If you are one of the dumpers that go "I AM DUMPING MY POINTS, COME GET THEM", by making it obvious, then you get the normal punishment.

But if you end up like Commander or buddysystem, where they really don't seem to know what happened (Say a sibling/spouse sabotaged the account), then a 1 month ban would be given.

[king sam]

The way point dumping is currently handled now:

• It is identified and a moderator is informed
• The mod then puts the member on a 6 month Website Vacation (which is what he is on right now)
  This allows for the active games to still be played competitively but doesn't allow the user to create/join other games for obvious reasons
• The case is then investigated
• If its the 1st infraction like this then the member receives a 1 month vacation from the site (like blitz)
• If the user has a history of the Major/Severe Infractions on CC then the next punishment is an escalation which can include up to a perma-ban

What everyone is missing on this is this:

Subject: Is Commander guilty?

I just received an email from commander

I just can't believe so many people think I'm guilty.
What, do you imagine, would be my motive?

Obviously, I am not quitting CC.
I am an extremely active member and plan on being here for the next 5 years, at the very least.
I have an obligation to my clan and to all my teammates.
I am active on the forums and know that point-dumping is illegal.
You all know that I have "point-dropped" before, right? A year-and-a-half ago, I was at 3000+ and dropped to 1400 by playing 1v1s and speed doodles.
I'll get you the thread where I discuss my decision to drop rank when I find it.

The point is, I obviously knew the rules (as all active players do). Why would I risk everything?

Please, please, enlighten me as to the reason you believe I did this.

Like I said, I want to be here. I am very active.
I am a dedicated member and have never had any intention of leaving.
I know the rules, and the fact that I "dropped rank" from 3000+ to 1400 one-and-a-half years ago proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Why?

I love Conquer Club

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 6&t=103991

This wasnt his first run in with this.

KS

[SirSebstar]

Thanks to the reminder of King Sam we can see that the original premise of the OP's suggestion is flawed. There is a 6 month at most ban for research. If found guilty the normal escalating punishment system is in place. All that needs to be done is to verify he is the master behind the computer. In comms case that is going to be tricky since it apparenlyly (heresay) is using his IP, he claims nobody else touches his computer, ergo there are not many options left. Well unless you count the dedicated hacked with a vengeance against commander, or the illuminati.. Well screw logic, but the hunters verdict stands..

Now King Sam, in my view Pointdumping is the starting(or playing) of games with no intention of winning. if you seriously consider that going after medals is the same as pointdumping then i would like to hear that. If this is not the case, I would like to hear so too.
I can see that pointdumping is illigal for the sake of the integrity of the pointrank system, but maybe then we need a different system that monitors eachs class/ type of games and base an overall score instead of one collective score..

Anyways, i'd appreciate it if you could please clear up if medalhunting is considered like pointdumping if it means you loose oh 3000 points of more in the endevour.. roughly speaking, Just looking for an indication, as a known medal hunter.

[king sam]

Now King Sam, in my view Pointdumping is the starting(or playing) of games with no intention of winning. if you seriously consider that going after medals is the same as pointdumping then i would like to hear that. If this is not the case, I would like to hear so too.
I can see that pointdumping is illigal for the sake of the integrity of the pointrank system, but maybe then we need a different system that monitors eachs class/ type of games and base an overall score instead of one collective score..

Anyways, i'd appreciate it if you could please clear up if medalhunting is considered like pointdumping if it means you loose oh 3000 points of more in the endevour.. roughly speaking, Just looking for an indication, as a known medal hunter.

Point dumping is intentionally losing games to lower your score. It causes fluxuation on the point scale system that is run on CC, and is considered abuse. I at this time am unaware of CC's official stance on medal hunting causing you to lose points at a faster then normal rate, to be honest, I don’t think there is a stance. This will need to be something discussed with the higher ups to clarify what position will be taken in situations like that.

My personal opinion is if your chasing down shiny medal things for your profile and in the process you lose rank/points due to playing in games and settings that you normally don’t play in then that's exactly what it is. Your decision to expand your game in pursuit of other awards besides your score. But this is my personal opinion, I don’t know how policy is or will be in this reference. All I can do is provide my insight and go from there.

KS

[ljex]

The way point dumping is currently handled now:

• It is identified and a moderator is informed
• The mod then puts the member on a 6 month Website Vacation (which is what he is on right now)
  This allows for the active games to still be played competitively but doesn't allow the user to create/join other games for obvious reasons
• The case is then investigated
• If its the 1st infraction like this then the member receives a 1 month vacation from the site (like blitz)
• If the user has a history of the Major/Severe Infractions on CC then the next punishment is an escalation which can include up to a perma-ban

What everyone is missing on this is this:

Subject: Is Commander guilty?

I just received an email from commander

I just can't believe so many people think I'm guilty.
What, do you imagine, would be my motive?

Obviously, I am not quitting CC.
I am an extremely active member and plan on being here for the next 5 years, at the very least.
I have an obligation to my clan and to all my teammates.
I am active on the forums and know that point-dumping is illegal.
You all know that I have "point-dropped" before, right? A year-and-a-half ago, I was at 3000+ and dropped to 1400 by playing 1v1s and speed doodles.
I'll get you the thread where I discuss my decision to drop rank when I find it.

The point is, I obviously knew the rules (as all active players do). Why would I risk everything?

Please, please, enlighten me as to the reason you believe I did this.

Like I said, I want to be here. I am very active.
I am a dedicated member and have never had any intention of leaving.
I know the rules, and the fact that I "dropped rank" from 3000+ to 1400 one-and-a-half years ago proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Why?

I love Conquer Club

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 6&t=103991

This wasnt his first run in with this.

KS

lol, every player who is ever at the top of the scoreboard and stops playing the games they are excellent at drops score, if i suddenly started playing 1 vs 1 or assassin games my score would fall fast but that does not make it point dumping. This site is about fun and one of the things that makes it fun is the wide range of game settings you have available to you, if suddenly its going to be bad for you if you
decide to expand to playing more games this site has lost everything it has going for it.

Why you make such a post is beyond me it serves no good for anything and looks awful for CC even if it is just you making a rash and ill-informed post which im guessing is the case.

[jefjef]

This wasnt his first run in with this.

I believe the difference is that in your example he wasn't deadbeating. He was playing.

[king sam]

lol, every player who is ever at the top of the scoreboard and stops playing the games they are excellent at drops score, if i suddenly started playing 1 vs 1 or assassin games my score would fall fast but that does not make it point dumping. This site is about fun and one of the things that makes it fun is the wide range of game settings you have available to you, if suddenly its going to be bad for you if you
decide to expand to playing more games this site has lost everything it has going for it.

Why you make such a post is beyond me it serves no good for anything and looks awful for CC even if it is just you making a rash and ill-informed post which im guessing is the case.

ljex are you just only going into this one way and cant perceive in any possible way that your opinion may not be the right one, I mean I want to give you the benefit of the doubt here. But you continue to make me question if you really think before you type. My earlier post was explaining how policy today stands on point dumping.

The earlier thing he did on CC which he mentioned as point dumping which was outlined by him in an email posted by you (shocking once again you relay a message from him in the forums without knowing the content of it, it seems) was not documented in his record. I dont know the direction admin proceeded on it or what factor that plays in this case. If it was him creating games, playing games and dropping score cause he was in the hunt for medal then for me personally no I dont consider that dumping. But he does, or at least he says he did it. Maybe he was dealt with about this and other people besides me are in the know. I am not going to speculate, I will wait to see what the site wants to do with the situation, but I do know that at least in his mind he was Guilty of this once before. If you still cant follow why I came to that conclusion then go back and re-read your post of posting an email from him.

Now this occasion. Seriously? Do you need to question making and joining 65 speed games and deadbeating in every one as point dumping? Do you. Thats pretty clear cut.

As it stands now. His account created 65 games, deadbeated every one. Was put on a temp 6 month ban, as per protocol for an account doing this, and the investigation started. Everyone is given the same fair shake on investigations. This investigation has so far turned up to be linked to him, his account, his computer doing this. Not the popular opinion of all of you but thats what it is. So far the rules have been met just as outlined in the guidelines, and the initial sugg of this thread was mis-informed as to the information as to what as happened.

KS

[Master Chief]

lol, every player who is ever at the top of the scoreboard and stops playing the games they are excellent at drops score, if i suddenly started playing 1 vs 1 or assassin games my score would fall fast but that does not make it point dumping. This site is about fun and one of the things that makes it fun is the wide range of game settings you have available to you, if suddenly its going to be bad for you if you
decide to expand to playing more games this site has lost everything it has going for it.

Why you make such a post is beyond me it serves no good for anything and looks awful for CC even if it is just you making a rash and ill-informed post which im guessing is the case.

ljex are you just only going into this one way and cant perceive in any possible way that your opinion may not be the right one, I mean I want to give you the benefit of the doubt here. But you continue to make me question if you really think before you type. My earlier post was explaining how policy today stands on point dumping.

The earlier thing he did on CC which he mentioned as point dumping which was outlined by him in an email posted by you (shocking once again you relay a message from him in the forums without knowing the content of it, it seems) was not documented in his record. I dont know the direction admin proceeded on it or what factor that plays in this case. If it was him creating games, playing games and dropping score cause he was in the hunt for medal then for me personally no I dont consider that dumping. But he does, or at least he says he did it. Maybe he was dealt with about this and other people besides me are in the know. I am not going to speculate, I will wait to see what the site wants to do with the situation, but I do know that at least in his mind he was Guilty of this once before. If you still cant follow why I came to that conclusion then go back and re-read your post of posting an email from him.

Now this occasion. Seriously? Do you need to question making and joining 65 speed games and deadbeating in every one as point dumping? Do you. Thats pretty clear cut.

As it stands now. His account created 65 games, deadbeated every one. Was put on a temp 6 month ban, as per protocol for an account doing this, and the investigation started. Everyone is given the same fair shake on investigations. This investigation has so far turned up to be linked to him, his account, his computer doing this. Not the popular opinion of all of you but thats what it is. So far the rules have been met just as outlined in the guidelines, and the initial sugg of this thread was mis-informed as to the information as to what as happened.

KS

I think I've re-read that e-mail (the one that you keep referring to and the one that you quoted on the first page of this thread) and for the life of me I cannot find where he admits that he is point-dumping. Yes, he admits that he "point-dropped" as in his score dropped as a result of his pursuit of medals, but he never says that his purpose was to give away points on purpose. He was going for medals. He was playing games that he didn't normally play. When you play new games, do you suddenly stop wanting to win? No, you still want to win, you just win less due to your inexperience. This shouldn't be called "point-dumping" just because you were very high in rank, got bored, and decided that you wanted new shiny medals on your profile.

I agree with Ijex. There should be a clearly defined distinction between these two. Point-dumping should be defined as giving away points on purpose out of frustration. "Point-dropping" as Commander calls it, should be the giving away points inadvertently due to lack of experience on certain maps, in most cases due to pursuit of medals. If you start condemning every person that wants to get shiny gold medals (or silver or bronze or whatever), then what's the point of playing? I've been trying to get my tourney medal for a while now, and as a result I join up a bunch of different tourneys. Most of these I have very little experience on the maps or settings, but I learn. I lose a bunch, but I learn, and I get better. Eventually I will get this medal, but should I be persecuted merely because I wanted to get a shiny gold medal? Is that a crime? If it is, I think I might leave CC for another 3 years. I left the first time because I fell from 11th on the site to sgt. Not on purpose. No point-dumping. I was pissed, but I didn't take it out on anyone. I was angry but I didn't break the rules. I just took my own self-inflicted vacation (not a punishment from anyone on here). I'm now back, and looking to have fun, but if there are rules in place that limit my ability to have fun, what's the point of being here?

~MC

[king sam]

This is also from the first page of this thread:

Point dumping is intentionally losing games to lower your score. It causes fluxuation on the point scale system that is run on CC, and is considered abuse. I at this time am unaware of CC's official stance on medal hunting causing you to lose points at a faster then normal rate, to be honest, I don’t think there is a stance. This will need to be something discussed with the higher ups to clarify what position will be taken in situations like that.

My personal opinion is if your chasing down shiny medal things for your profile and in the process you lose rank/points due to playing in games and settings that you normally don’t play in then that's exactly what it is. Your decision to expand your game in pursuit of other awards besides your score. But this is my personal opinion, I don’t know how policy is or will be in this reference. All I can do is provide my insight and go from there.
KS

I dont have the specifics on the first instance if their is one. All I know is he talked about it in that PM. This could have been handled via admin and never filed. Once again you will need to wait to find that out.

As it is now he has been treated as anyone would in this circumstance.

This was a point dump. This instance currently. His account is on a temp hold for 6 months. This happens to all offenders of this violation until details are sorted out.

If he is found Guilty, which all evidence suggests then he will either have a 1 month vacation (1st Major infraction) or kicked from the site (cause of multiple infractions or the way the site wants to go with it)

If the earlier incident was an incident and it plays a part in the decision on his overall future on this site then that will be determined by admin.

This was all stated earlier.

KS

[Master Chief]

This is also from the first page of this thread:

Point dumping is intentionally losing games to lower your score. It causes fluxuation on the point scale system that is run on CC, and is considered abuse. I at this time am unaware of CC's official stance on medal hunting causing you to lose points at a faster then normal rate, to be honest, I don’t think there is a stance. This will need to be something discussed with the higher ups to clarify what position will be taken in situations like that.

My personal opinion is if your chasing down shiny medal things for your profile and in the process you lose rank/points due to playing in games and settings that you normally don’t play in then that's exactly what it is. Your decision to expand your game in pursuit of other awards besides your score. But this is my personal opinion, I don’t know how policy is or will be in this reference. All I can do is provide my insight and go from there.
KS

I dont have the specifics on the first instance if their is one. All I know is he talked about it in that PM. This could have been handled via admin and never filed. Once again you will need to wait to find that out.

As it is now he has been treated as anyone would in this circumstance.

This was a point dump. This instance currently. His account is on a temp hold for 6 months. This happens to all offenders of this violation until details are sorted out.

If he is found Guilty, which all evidence suggests then he will either have a 1 month vacation (1st Major infraction) or kicked from the site (cause of multiple infractions or the way the site wants to go with it)

If the earlier incident was an incident and it plays a part in the decision on his overall future on this site then that will be determined by admin.

This was all stated earlier.

KS

Major/Severe Infractions are those that are more than just annoying, but are intentionally hurtful to a user, group of users, or the community in general. This includes but is not limited to: Cyber-bullying/Harassment, Bigotry, Personal Information Abuse, Account Sitting Abuse, Intentional Deadbeating, Repeatedly Holding Players Hostage, Serial Teammate Killing, Hijacking Accounts, Systematically "Farming" New Recruits, Gambling, **Point Dumping** and **Illegal Point Collecting,** etc.

1. Major/Severe Infractions follow a shortened vacation escalation scale of: Warning,
2. One Month Vacation,
3. Permanent Vacation.

[kmhebert]

It's stupid to ban people for losing points. Stupid. Who cares? It is meaningless. I go up and down a few hundred points, all the time. Who cares? It means NOTHING.

[ddgrimes]

Hope they don't back track on me, lol.

I dropped about 1500 points when i started a medal hunt.
I have only recovered about 500 points and never again to see the eagle.

Like standing or medals mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

Who cares if he decided to drop points? Maybe he wanted to see if he could climb back up again
for fun. Should be his choice.

IMHO

[Master Chief]

Message from Commander, directed at King Sam:

"The first time I "point-dropped," I tried hard to win every game. I posted the link because it proves that I know how to "point-drop" legally. And it should most certainly be legal, as long as you are trying to win. You are going to encounter a whole lot of resistance if you are going to argue that medal-hunting is illegal, King Sam. There is nothing to investigate with regard to my prior play.

As for the current accusations against me, investigate that all you want. However, that should be kept in the GD and C+A thread.

There is no need to discuss my specific case in this thread."

[Pirlo]

great suggestion Fircoal.. I wanted to open a similar thread a month ago when brann/ArmySpeeder was busted. but i was too lazy to start an argument with an admin who doesn't listen and wouldn't open their mind.

it is really joke to have the point dumper perma-banned while multis can easily pay $25 and comeback. this site should learn to forgive its customers, at least the good ones, when they make a mistake. but unfortunately, it seems to hold a forever grudge.

[TheForgivenOne]

great suggestion Fircoal.. I wanted to open a similar thread a month ago when brann/ArmySpeeder was busted. but i was too lazy to start an argument with an admin who doesn't listen and wouldn't open their mind.

it is really joke to have the point dumper perma-banned while multis can easily pay $25 and comeback. this site should learn to forgive its customers, at least the good ones, when they make a mistake. but unfortunately, it seems to hold a forever grudge.

As king sam said, if it is his First Major Infraction, then they get a 1 month website ban. However if they have more, this increases. So if the user already has a significant past, then yes, it is going to weigh in on the verdict.

And multi's can only do this payback once to my knowledge.