Game Throwing?

[Sawdust91]

Ljex did not point dump or intentionly lose games. He played to the full extent of his abilities. How do i know this? Because he joined loads of my games and i only won one. He was very good at playing the games. He joined loads of games and played his best. Ljex i have your back bud

[Pyrhhus]

Hello. I would like to defend ljex's behavior and rebuke the official warning in two ways, one specific, and one theoretical.

Specifically, I feel that the case against ljex for game throwing presented here is very weak. Nowhere in the communications presented does he state or imply the intention to purposefully lose games. He does state specifically that he will try to win every game, while realizing that he is probably going to lose enough games to result in an overall point loss. His behavior in the sample games can be and has been rationally and reasonably explained. If king achilles was serious when he said this case is about game throwing and not point dumping (even though most of his post was related to point dumping), then I feel the warning should be immediately removed because no pattern or even instance of game throwing has been proved.

On a more theoretical level, I do not feel that ljex's behavior or intentions were in any way abusive or antithetical to the spirit of CC. The point system was established as a means of quantitative comparison between players. Like all attempts to measure such ethereal qualities as strategic know-how and tactical skill, the point system of CC is inherently flawed and that is perfectly OK as long as the flaws are recognized and accounted for when handing out point-related abuse punishments. With so many players limiting the number and type of games they play, it is nearly impossible to reach the higher ranks (unless you're TheCrown) without doing the same. All players who wish to can manipulate their points in such a manner. For example, it is widely known that playing 1v1's at a high win percentage will result in an overall point loss because the point average of 1v1 players is quite low, so people who wish to strive for Conqueror avoid such game types.

What I'm striving to demonstrate is this: points are not sacred. Players with higher points do not earn special privileges, and there is no material prize for being number one. As the community has grown larger and more complex over the years the role of points as the primary indicator of skill has diminished. Points do not fully represent "the best" just as the person with the highest win percentage on a particular map does not fully represent "the best" on that map. Many players, myself among them, care very little about points. There are players who care deeply about points and the point system should be protected from gross abuses, but I think in ljex's case the protection has been overly zealous. ljex was not purposely losing games, he was not deadbeating, nor was he signing up for 50 speed games or employing any of the common (and abusive) point dumping techniques. Like anyone else on the site, if you wanted his points you had to beat him while he was trying to beat you, and as I stated above, I have seen no evidence that ljex was not trying to win. The fact that ljex was purposely manipulating his score to a greater extent than most players is irrelevant, especially since he did it for personal amusement and not to boost team points or any other nefarious objective.

To conclude I will also say that I feel it is clear from the responses on this thread that the majority of the active community disagrees with the official judgment in this case and with the administration's stance on the nature and value of the point system. It is a good system worth protecting from those who mean to do it harm, but it is not absolute and players should be allowed to legally manipulate their score, as indeed many already do.

[The Voice]

Very nicely put!

KA's decision seems very inconsistent with everything else.

[ljex]

Based on KA's post i changed the poll for some reason the votes didnt reset though or at least not for me...does anyone know how i fix that?

[jefjef]

Based on KA's post i changed the poll for some reason the votes didnt reset though or at least not for me...does anyone know how i fix that?

Why bother. The results would be the same. The vast majority agree that this is a BS ruling. CC knows it's a BS ruling.

Andy D needs to do a re-do like he did with the Blitz case. It is obvious you did not "throw" any games.

[ljex]

Based on KA's post i changed the poll for some reason the votes didnt reset though or at least not for me...does anyone know how i fix that?

Why bother. The results would be the same. The vast majority agree that this is a BS ruling. CC knows it's a BS ruling.

Andy D needs to do a re-do like he did with the Blitz case. It is obvious you did not "throw" any games.

One could ask why I bother with a lot of things...and the answer is simple, I care a little to much about what happens to me on this site for better or worse

[Renee_W]

I didn't even bother to go through all 6 after the first few it was clear you weren't even trying. The warning looks quite legit to me.

[ljex]

I didn't even bother to go through all 6 after the first few it was clear you weren't even trying. The warning looks quite legit to me.

did you bother to look at the games actually? Clearly not because in the first 2 the game was already over by the time i took my second turn not much i can do about that...and not sure how you can think of that as game throwing. Luck sucks sometimes but i did that to people too did they get warnings for game throwing?

[mc05025]

These are the sample games:

Game 9117000
Game 9085510
Game 9085720
Game 9108521
Game 9108506
Game 9108494

First, I would like to point out that this is a game throwing case and not point dumping, as ljex selected which games he would lose while try to win others. In this method, you won't be seen as a point dumper as you did not massively dropped your games, To throw some games to get into a certain score/rank that you are after, then it is game throwing.

The pm sent to jefjef to further show intention:

"Soon after the last of my quads oasis games start and finish im going to play a bunch of 1 vs 1 games and let my rank slide as low as it can while i still try to win every game. Im guessing if i play really simple maps 1 vs 1 and a bunch of assdoodles i can get down to 1500 or so..."

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 0#p3167190

And also the game chat from Game 9092482.

ljex: legally point dumping
ljex: im going to see how low i can get for a few reasons
ljex: 1) to stick it to the mods after they banned commander for point dumping to show them that there is a way to do it legally

To answer that, no, game throwing is still game throwing and to do it a number of times just to lower your score is still gross abuse of the game. There is no "legal point dumping".

This is completely ridiculous.

It is not throwing games, it is just games that can not show his ability to win almost all of them.
If a 1500 player started to play these games would that be throwing games?
From when the good players can no longer stop care about their points and start playing any type of games they want?
and how is that such a big problem? how this damages the site?
I do not understand your obsession about point dumping but you 'd better spend more time at the real problems of the point system and not this one.

[Renee_W]

I didn't even bother to go through all 6 after the first few it was clear you weren't even trying. The warning looks quite legit to me.

did you bother to look at the games actually? Clearly not because in the first 2 the game was already over by the time i took my second turn not much i can do about that...and not sure how you can think of that as game throwing. Luck sucks sometimes but i did that to people too did they get warnings for game throwing?

I was actually coming back to revise my statement but yes I looked at them. I can't see dice rolls so I wanted to rescind my "is clear" to "looks clear". What I saw was games where you did little more than deploy and end turn. Maybe you had stupendously awful dice, something I can't see but I assume KA can. Maybe there is some conquerer level strategy I don't know about that involves sitting back a few turns while you get chewed up to win. But as a mid-level player looking at just the evidence provided to me... yes, those games looked like you didn't try.

[Renee_W]

I would also note that you threw down the gauntlet to the mods. I see nothing in the rules saying you have to throw 4-5 games before you broke the rules. Sure in a normal situation it may be reasonable to demonstrate a pattern, but this isn't a normal situation. I would "expect" the mods to pounce on the "first" clear violation they found.

[ljex]

I didn't even bother to go through all 6 after the first few it was clear you weren't even trying. The warning looks quite legit to me.

did you bother to look at the games actually? Clearly not because in the first 2 the game was already over by the time i took my second turn not much i can do about that...and not sure how you can think of that as game throwing. Luck sucks sometimes but i did that to people too did they get warnings for game throwing?

I was actually coming back to revise my statement but yes I looked at them. I can't see dice rolls so I wanted to rescind my "is clear" to "looks clear". What I saw was games where you did little more than deploy and end turn. Maybe you had stupendously awful dice, something I can't see but I assume KA can. Maybe there is some conquerer level strategy I don't know about that involves sitting back a few turns while you get chewed up to win. But as a mid-level player looking at just the evidence provided to me... yes, those games looked like you didn't try.

you are proving a few key things right here...the main one being that you cant look at game settings. those are all manual games...in the vast majority of manual games i play i deploy all in one stacked region...that is the case in the first 3 games. the first 2 of which i had lost that stack by my first turn...not else for me to do but deploy and end, and i dont remember for sure but i think i lost a 4 vs 1 in the england game. What am i supposed to do about that, and in the 3rd one i attack and got bad dice, not complaining just wondering what i should do differently. Please seriously enlighten me if you have the answer. Also the last 3 are just funny as i said earlier i would never even think about throwing games to that player way more than any other player i would ever play against...just attacked after i had lost to make the games faster so we could start another game. Anyway maybe you will actually look at the first 2 games now and realize what happened and that those are the furthest thing from thrown games ever considering I got destroyed and couldnt have won without the grace of god at my side by the time it was my second turn (first turn i could attack as they were manual games) they were already over

[jefjef]

I would also note that you threw down the gauntlet to the mods. I see nothing in the rules saying you have to throw 4-5 games before you broke the rules. Sure in a normal situation it may be reasonable to demonstrate a pattern, but this isn't a normal situation. I would "expect" the mods to pounce on the "first" clear violation they found.

What gauntlet did ljex throw down? He did not threaten to throw any games... All he threatened to do was start playing something other than his ho-hum points farming quad games.

As for "pouncing" on clear violations. There are no clear violations. CC screwed the pooch and killed the cat on this ruling.



Just so no one confuses my point of view as a friendship between ljex and I it isn't. I would LMAO if he was busted and site banned for LEGITIMATE rules violation. This isn't and we need to stand and demand wrongs are corrected. CC is saying that we can't play games that this screwed up point system punishes us for playing when we try to win and enjoy.

[Renee_W]

the main one being that you cant look at game settings. those are all manual games...in the vast majority of manual games i play i deploy all in one stacked region...that is the case in the first 3 games.

I can read settings and I saw that, which made it all the more doubtful, your dice were that terrible.

the first 2 of which i had lost that stack by my first turn...

Either that's not what happened and the mod's can tell that or the mod's have no better info than I do and made their decision the same way I did and that lack of info would be a VASTLY more significant problem than you getting a warning after challenging the mods.

Maybe there is a fundamental breakdown the information available to the C&A staff, I hope not. But either they can see what I can't and know for sure you didn't try or you waved a red flag at a bull not counting on that bull lacking the info to see more than I can see. If the mods can only see what I can see that's a problem but given the challenge you put up I can see the conclusion they reached if they don't have access to any better info than I do.

What gauntlet did ljex throw down? He did not threaten to throw any games... All he threatened to do was start playing something other than his ho-hum points farming quad games.

Oh please... ROFL! "ljex: 1) to stick it to the mods" I think it's significantly obvious and undisputed ljex openly and publicly tried to dance just inside the rules and be like see can't get me. Threatening to break the rules isn't much of a challenge, that's just yeah? ok *smack* Trying to do something they frown on while staying w/i the letter of the rules and being very open about it that's a challenge, an invitation to scrutinize you and look for the tiniest infraction.

[Renee_W]

Game 9117000 for example isn't archived yet. With the new dice stats we know they have detailed dice records on "recent"(Andy indicates that info is discarded when it's archived http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 5#p3183546) games. If the mods don't have access to that info that would be a problem. But I was/am inclined to assume that info is made available at least to the C&A staff so they have the information to properly make judgments like this.

[jefjef]

Oh please... ROFL! "ljex: 1) to stick it to the mods" I think it's significantly obvious and undisputed ljex openly and publicly tried to dance just inside the rules and be like see can't get me. Threatening to break the rules isn't much of a challenge, that's just yeah? ok *smack* Trying to do something they frown on while staying w/i the letter of the rules and being very open about it that's a challenge, an invitation to scrutinize you and look for the tiniest infraction.

Game 9117000 for example isn't archived yet. With the new dice stats we know they have detailed dice records on "recent"(Andy indicates that info is discarded when it's archived http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 5#p3183546) games. If the mods don't have access to that info that would be a problem. But I was/am inclined to assume that info is made available at least to the C&A staff so they have the information to properly make judgments like this.

Double posting like you just did is an "In your face mods!" rules violation...

But anyway I realize you are a 300+ game high ranked veteran and your in depth game analysis is certainly valuable and insightful but no - ljex did not throw any games.

As far as him wanting to dance just inside the rules - he used to be a mod and still has mod friends and him switching to something different than farming Oasis had nothing to do with "sticking it to the man."

This warning sure smells like CC sticking it to him though and by doing so limiting/dictating what those with high ranks may chose to play.

Well goodbye Renee. Nice chatting with ya!

[Bruceswar]

Based on KA's post i changed the poll for some reason the votes didnt reset though or at least not for me...does anyone know how i fix that?

Why bother. The results would be the same. The vast majority agree that this is a BS ruling. CC knows it's a BS ruling.

Andy D needs to do a re-do like he did with the Blitz case. It is obvious you did not "throw" any games.

One could ask why I bother with a lot of things...and the answer is simple, I care a little to much about what happens to me on this site for better or worse

We may not agree often but this is one time where I fully understand you and hope you can clear your name.

[Renee_W]

Double posting like you just did is an "In your face mods!" rules violation...

Maybe it's a violation, if so it's not in your face, it's of ignorance. I had to dig down into the show more details on spamming to find a reference to multi-posting. I certainly didn't double post to be annoying, which is the definition of spam. If there is no "common sense" guideline to that my mistake but after carefully reading the rules I'm not even sure I broke them much less in your face broke them.

Edit: for future reference I PMed a mod for clarification.

But anyway I realize you are a 300+ game high ranked veteran and your in depth game analysis is certainly valuable and insightful but no - ljex did not throw any games.

I realize I can detect sarcasm so I'm glad you're such a bigot, ljex put it to community vote/commentary. I'm certainly part of the community you don't like the conclusion I drew too bad, your attitude certainly isn't convincing me this was all a mistake.

As far as him wanting to dance just inside the rules - he used to be a mod and still has mod friends and him switching to something different than farming Oasis had nothing to do with "sticking it to the man."

And yet that's what KA quote's him as saying, are you saying KA made up that quote?

[Gypsys Kiss]

Whats the difference between a Major creating a load of speed games and intentionally deadbeating a few thousand points away and a Conqueror creating a load of games knowing he is going to lose a few thousand points?

[SirSebstar]

Whats the difference between a Major creating a load of speed games and intentionally deadbeating a few thousand points away and a Conqueror creating a load of games knowing he is going to lose a few thousand points?

a ban?

[Dako]

Whats the difference between a Major creating a load of speed games and intentionally deadbeating a few thousand points away and a Conqueror creating a load of games knowing he is going to lose a few thousand points?

a ban?

For the former.

[Incandenza]

Whats the difference between a Major creating a load of speed games and intentionally deadbeating a few thousand points away and a Conqueror creating a load of games knowing he is going to lose a few thousand points?

A damn good question.

Personally, I've never understood why point dumping is such a heinous crime. As long as it's not a giant point dump to one person (as a corollary, I'd say that the only people in a point dumping situation who should face sanction are those who take undue advantage of a point dump), if someone wants to burn off a shitload of points, I dunno why that's my business. If a rational point floor is adopted (fitz has been agitating for this for years, and I wholeheartedly agree, tho while he sets the floor at 500, I'd put it at more like 750, since anyone who stays long enough to get much below that is playing in bad faith), all the better.

And for the record, I think it's embarrassing that ljex was warned, and I wonder whose cat's-paw renee is (nothing personal, it just seems like you're taking an undue interest and presuming quite a bit of deductive authority).

[King_Herpes]

[jefjef]

But anyway I realize you are a 300+ game high ranked veteran and your in depth game analysis is certainly valuable and insightful but no - ljex did not throw any games.

I realize I can detect sarcasm so I'm glad you're such a bigot

A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own or intolerant of people of different political views, ethnicity, race, class, religion, or gender.

Now you resort to flaming/baiting...

More ignorance of the rules violation from you? Is that going to be your defense for this too?

Well I would say that ljex was ignorant as well about the liberal way CC would interpret his actions and twist his motives.

[AAFitz]

Whats the difference between a Major creating a load of speed games and intentionally deadbeating a few thousand points away and a Conqueror creating a load of games knowing he is going to lose a few thousand points?

One is cheating, the other is just playing the game, and that word knowing is inappropriate, since he cant possibly know which ones he may win or lose...only that statistically, he is likely to lose points, by playing certain types of games.