SIEGE! - PSD available - [Quenched]

[KEYOGI]

I think part of the problem with the names is that they stand out so much from the rest of the map. Perhaps they could be toned down and made more subtle.

[hulmey]

i dont think there is any room in the tunnel or castle for names!!!!!!!

[mibi]

the comparison to KOTM and checkers is not quite valid.

KOTM may be confusing because looking for C4 or B6 may be difficult. but on Seige, the XML name will be Swamp 3. I seriously down anyone is going to have trouble either A, finding the swamp on the map and B, finding the bright number 3.

the names and graphics on seige is much more intuitive. no one is going to deploy their armies on woods camp 1 thinking its tunnel 5

[EvilOtto]

Its gonna be more simpler than chinese checkers...

For example (chinesecheckers centre u to yellow d)

this map will show plains 1 to plains 3....

Its very easy and there should be no confusion really!!!!

You have that backwards. Chinese Checkers is more simpler. Yellow-D is colored yellow and the triangle is labeled "Yellow". It is a very descriptive name.

Here there isn't a "Light Tan 2", instead it is called "Plains 2" and you have to look up at the legend to see what color the Plains are... and you might get it confused with River Camp which has some of that same color in it.

[mibi]

in the current map layout adding names just clutters the whole thing and i do agree it looks far better without them, BUT i'm very concerned about gameplay issues. imagine the long list of reinforcing or attacking. it will be something like: swamp 1, swamp 2, swamp 3.... this might cause a big problem especially in freestyle RT games where you have to be quick. i had this problem in the KOTM map. i deployed several times in the wrong spots or attacked other locations. with territory names you know exactly where to click. at the moment the only problematic teritories are greathall 1 and gate 1&2. all the rest have enough space to squeeze a name.

I think it would be quicker to find Swamp 3 then some random name like Spooky Bogs, where i have to search the WHOLE map to find Spooky Bogs, rather with swamp 3, i already know where the swamp is, and all it takes is .2 seconds to find the number 3.

as for problematic territories, well Gate 1, 2 as well as the whole inner wall, throne1,and tunnel 3 are impossible, and i can think of about 8 more territories that are problematic, and another 8 on top of that with the small map that are going to be a problem.

[mibi]

Its gonna be more simpler than chinese checkers...

For example (chinesecheckers centre u to yellow d)

this map will show plains 1 to plains 3....

Its very easy and there should be no confusion really!!!!

You have that backwards. Chinese Checkers is more simpler. Yellow-D is colored yellow and the triangle is labeled "Yellow". It is a very descriptive name.

Here there isn't a "Light Tan 2", instead it is called "Plains 2" and you have to look up at the legend to see what color the Plains are... and you might get it confused with River Camp which has some of that same color in it.

60 seconds is about all it takes to be familiar with which territory is which. If someone cant be bothered to discern the obvious difference from the plains and river camp, considering the different colors and the fact that one has a CAMP on it, then they shouldn't be playing.

Same is classic map, if someone doesnt know their basic geography then the bonus area mystery. Or the FAR EAST which isnt color coded at all, i had to second guess myself before I discerned where Siam actually was.

With Siege, the color coded legend may not be as precise as other candy color maps, but thats where the realism takes over, the outer wall looks like an...uh... outerwall.

[EvilOtto]

as for problematic territories, well Gate 1, 2 as well as the whole inner wall, throne1,and tunnel 3 are impossible, and i can think of about 8 more territories that are problematic, and another 8 on top of that with the small map that are going to be a problem.

Throne-1? Where is that? You mean Great Hall-1? See, it is even confusing you!

But seriously, a bunch of people are saying that names would make your map better, so you could at least give it a serious try. If they don't fit everywhere, don't use them everywhere.

The names do not have to fit entirely inside the territory borders. You might change the shape of some borders to improve the text placement also; for example you could change the shape of the boarder between tunnel-2 and tunnel-3 so that it isn't "impossible".

What if the inner wall used A, B, C and the great hall used 1,2,3,4,5? I bet you could even fit "Hall 1" and "Hall 2" and so on in there.

60 seconds is about all it takes to be familiar with which territory is which. If someone cant be bothered to discern the obvious difference from the plains and river camp, considering the different colors and the fact that one has a CAMP on it, then they shouldn't be playing.

I bet a lot of people browsing maps spend less than 60 seconds deciding whether to play it or not, so you could lose players. Not everyone will recognize the overhead camp/tent on first look... maybe that is the princess's beach umbrella and she's laying out drinking a margarita?

This is a cool map and I'd like to see it as good as possible so a lot of people play it. The ducks are awesome.

[DiM]

in the current map layout adding names just clutters the whole thing and i do agree it looks far better without them, BUT i'm very concerned about gameplay issues. imagine the long list of reinforcing or attacking. it will be something like: swamp 1, swamp 2, swamp 3.... this might cause a big problem especially in freestyle RT games where you have to be quick. i had this problem in the KOTM map. i deployed several times in the wrong spots or attacked other locations. with territory names you know exactly where to click. at the moment the only problematic teritories are greathall 1 and gate 1&2. all the rest have enough space to squeeze a name.

I think it would be quicker to find Swamp 3 then some random name like Spooky Bogs, where i have to search the WHOLE map to find Spooky Bogs, rather with swamp 3, i already know where the swamp is, and all it takes is .2 seconds to find the number 3.

as for problematic territories, well Gate 1, 2 as well as the whole inner wall, throne1,and tunnel 3 are impossible, and i can think of about 8 more territories that are problematic, and another 8 on top of that with the small map that are going to be a problem.

the problem is not that people won't find where the swamp is located, that's easy. the problem is with the drop down menus for attack or reinforcement. you get plains 1...plains 7. in the menu they all look the same and many people will deploy or attack in the wrong teritories. it's easier to distinguish siam from kamchatka in a dropdown menu than it is to distinguish swamp 1 from swamp 2. or G3 from G4 on the KOTM map.
i'm talking mainly about freestyle RT games where you have to be very quick. in non RT games i guess you can take your time and study the map. for example i'll never play again on KOTM because the lack of the names, despite the fact the map is really nice. i really like the siege idea and i definitely want to play on such a map but without names i won't even try it.


PS: there would be another solution. i make little post-its with names an stick them on my monitor when i play siege

[mibi]

as for problematic territories, well Gate 1, 2 as well as the whole inner wall, throne1,and tunnel 3 are impossible, and i can think of about 8 more territories that are problematic, and another 8 on top of that with the small map that are going to be a problem.

Throne-1? Where is that? You mean Great Hall-1? See, it is even confusing you!

But seriously, a bunch of people are saying that names would make your map better, so you could at least give it a serious try. If they don't fit everywhere, don't use them everywhere.

The names do not have to fit entirely inside the territory borders. You might change the shape of some borders to improve the text placement also; for example you could change the shape of the boarder between tunnel-2 and tunnel-3 so that it isn't "impossible".

What if the inner wall used A, B, C and the great hall used 1,2,3,4,5? I bet you could even fit "Hall 1" and "Hall 2" and so on in there.

60 seconds is about all it takes to be familiar with which territory is which. If someone cant be bothered to discern the obvious difference from the plains and river camp, considering the different colors and the fact that one has a CAMP on it, then they shouldn't be playing.

I bet a lot of people browsing maps spend less than 60 seconds deciding whether to play it or not, so you could lose players. Not everyone will recognize the overhead camp/tent on first look... maybe that is the princess's beach umbrella and she's laying out drinking a margarita?

This is a cool map and I'd like to see it as good as possible so a lot of people play it. The ducks are awesome.

A bunch of people want names and a bunch of people dont. I dont think the map is confusing at all. Now you want to use names in some places and numbers in others, you also want to add letters for some territories as well, now THAT is confusing.

He is what will happen going down the name route.

1. All the names will be made from scratch so there will be endless bitching about whether something should be called Northwest Plains or Training Fields or NW Plains, or The Hills, or Mr Bubbles' Village, and this will go on ad nauseam.
2. People will complain about the font, size, color, opacity, shape, placement and everything else that goes on with fonts.
3. Some names simply wont fit in certain areas so there will be those that want borders moved around and those that want numbers or shorter names or micro text.
4. The small map magnify all the above problems.
5. The end product will be some mash up of names and numbers and will more convoluted, confusing, and cluttered.


sure some people will decide not to play the map because it uses numbers, but some will decide not to play because it uses numbers and names, and some still will decide not to play it because its a cluttered mess. No map has 100% likability. When you end up pleasing everyone a little bit you end up pleasing nobody a lot.

[mibi]

in the current map layout adding names just clutters the whole thing and i do agree it looks far better without them, BUT i'm very concerned about gameplay issues. imagine the long list of reinforcing or attacking. it will be something like: swamp 1, swamp 2, swamp 3.... this might cause a big problem especially in freestyle RT games where you have to be quick. i had this problem in the KOTM map. i deployed several times in the wrong spots or attacked other locations. with territory names you know exactly where to click. at the moment the only problematic teritories are greathall 1 and gate 1&2. all the rest have enough space to squeeze a name.

I think it would be quicker to find Swamp 3 then some random name like Spooky Bogs, where i have to search the WHOLE map to find Spooky Bogs, rather with swamp 3, i already know where the swamp is, and all it takes is .2 seconds to find the number 3.

as for problematic territories, well Gate 1, 2 as well as the whole inner wall, throne1,and tunnel 3 are impossible, and i can think of about 8 more territories that are problematic, and another 8 on top of that with the small map that are going to be a problem.

the problem is not that people won't find where the swamp is located, that's easy. the problem is with the drop down menus for attack or reinforcement. you get plains 1...plains 7. in the menu they all look the same and many people will deploy or attack in the wrong teritories. it's easier to distinguish siam from kamchatka in a dropdown menu than it is to distinguish swamp 1 from swamp 2. or G3 from G4 on the KOTM map.
i'm talking mainly about freestyle RT games where you have to be very quick. in non RT games i guess you can take your time and study the map. for example i'll never play again on KOTM because the lack of the names, despite the fact the map is really nice. i really like the siege idea and i definitely want to play on such a map but without names i won't even try it.


PS: there would be another solution. i make little post-its with names an stick them on my monitor when i play siege

If you want to deploy your armies on Swamp 1 and you accidently do it on Swamp 5 because you though a 5 looked like a 1, then only the Lord can help your CC score at that point.

I say the more numbered maps the better. I can't stand unfamiliar place names. I will play the Hong Kong and it will say I got attacked from Shek Pik. Great!, now where the hell is Shek Pik?!??! If it said I got attacked from Lantau 4 that would be better because I know where Lantau is from reading the legend for 5 seconds. With Siege its even easier because the continent names look like what they are!

I am having a hard time understanding why people think players are going to have trouble with the numbers. It couldn't be more intuitive.

[DiM]

in the current map layout adding names just clutters the whole thing and i do agree it looks far better without them, BUT i'm very concerned about gameplay issues. imagine the long list of reinforcing or attacking. it will be something like: swamp 1, swamp 2, swamp 3.... this might cause a big problem especially in freestyle RT games where you have to be quick. i had this problem in the KOTM map. i deployed several times in the wrong spots or attacked other locations. with territory names you know exactly where to click. at the moment the only problematic teritories are greathall 1 and gate 1&2. all the rest have enough space to squeeze a name.

I think it would be quicker to find Swamp 3 then some random name like Spooky Bogs, where i have to search the WHOLE map to find Spooky Bogs, rather with swamp 3, i already know where the swamp is, and all it takes is .2 seconds to find the number 3.

as for problematic territories, well Gate 1, 2 as well as the whole inner wall, throne1,and tunnel 3 are impossible, and i can think of about 8 more territories that are problematic, and another 8 on top of that with the small map that are going to be a problem.

the problem is not that people won't find where the swamp is located, that's easy. the problem is with the drop down menus for attack or reinforcement. you get plains 1...plains 7. in the menu they all look the same and many people will deploy or attack in the wrong teritories. it's easier to distinguish siam from kamchatka in a dropdown menu than it is to distinguish swamp 1 from swamp 2. or G3 from G4 on the KOTM map.
i'm talking mainly about freestyle RT games where you have to be very quick. in non RT games i guess you can take your time and study the map. for example i'll never play again on KOTM because the lack of the names, despite the fact the map is really nice. i really like the siege idea and i definitely want to play on such a map but without names i won't even try it.


PS: there would be another solution. i make little post-its with names an stick them on my monitor when i play siege

If you want to deploy your armies on Swamp 1 and you accidently do it on Swamp 5 because you though a 5 looked like a 1, then only the Lord can help your CC score at that point.

I say the more numbered maps the better. I can't stand unfamiliar place names. I will play the Hong Kong and it will say I got attacked from Shek Pik. Great!, now where the hell is Shek Pik?!??! If it said I got attacked from Lantau 4 that would be better because I know where Lantau is from reading the legend for 5 seconds. With Siege its even easier because the continent names look like what they are!

I am having a hard time understanding why people think players are going to have trouble with the numbers. It couldn't be more intuitive.

i'm having a hard time understanding many requests but that's just how the foundry works. anyway i'm against numbers because they can cause confusion and you can relate more to names than to numbers. i'm really fond of siam for example because it's an easy to defend border. would i be able to say i'm fon of asia 8? i don't think so. imagine the classic map with numbers. would anybod play it? no. people find it easyer to realte to names than to numbers. names add flavour they add feeling they even add a reason to attack a certain territory. i don't want to attack plains 4 from plains 5 i want my armies from shadow plains to crush the enemy in valley of death.
and about the cluttering issue. i understand usingnames may cause many font issues, i know it because i'm having the same problem on AoM map but in time and with feedback a suitable font (size shadow effects, etc)

[mibi]

i'm having a hard time understanding many requests but that's just how the foundry works. anyway i'm against numbers because they can cause confusion and you can relate more to names than to numbers. i'm really fond of siam for example because it's an easy to defend border. would i be able to say i'm fon of asia 8? i don't think so. imagine the classic map with numbers. would anybod play it? no. people find it easyer to realte to names than to numbers. names add flavour they add feeling they even add a reason to attack a certain territory. i don't want to attack plains 4 from plains 5 i want my armies from shadow plains to crush the enemy in valley of death.
and about the cluttering issue. i understand usingnames may cause many font issues, i know it because i'm having the same problem on AoM map but in time and with feedback a suitable font (size shadow effects, etc)

I was reffering to Siam on the South East Asia map in which you would only know the what continent Siam is if you were already familiar with the geography of Siam.
http://www.conquerclub.com/maps/Asia.S.jpg

as far as using names, there are places where no name will fit on the seige map, so no matter how much you want to attack Supior Inner Wall from Central Great Hall, its not going to happen on the map, only in the XML.

I would like to attack from the valley of death too, but even the scale of this map doesnt support such grandiose names like that. It's like taking your back yard and calling the corner by the fence, The Serpents Lair. This map is more of a tacticle siege than a sprawling LOTR style fantasy.

[DiM]

i'm having a hard time understanding many requests but that's just how the foundry works. anyway i'm against numbers because they can cause confusion and you can relate more to names than to numbers. i'm really fond of siam for example because it's an easy to defend border. would i be able to say i'm fon of asia 8? i don't think so. imagine the classic map with numbers. would anybod play it? no. people find it easyer to realte to names than to numbers. names add flavour they add feeling they even add a reason to attack a certain territory. i don't want to attack plains 4 from plains 5 i want my armies from shadow plains to crush the enemy in valley of death.
and about the cluttering issue. i understand usingnames may cause many font issues, i know it because i'm having the same problem on AoM map but in time and with feedback a suitable font (size shadow effects, etc)

I was reffering to Siam on the South East Asia map in which you would only know the what continent Siam is if you were already familiar with the geography of Siam.
http://www.conquerclub.com/maps/Asia.S.jpg

as far as using names, there are places where no name will fit on the seige map, so no matter how much you want to attack Supior Inner Wall from Central Great Hall, its not going to happen on the map, only in the XML.

I would like to attack from the valley of death too, but even the scale of this map doesnt support such grandiose names like that. It's like taking your back yard and calling the corner by the fence, The Serpents Lair. This map is more of a tacticle siege than a sprawling LOTR style fantasy.

actually a LOTR style fantasy has more appeal to the masses than a numerical map. that's the issue.

anyway. it's 8.15 am and i just got home after the night shift. i'll hit the shower and go to bed now. i'll post more after i wake up. and if i get som inspiration i will suggest some names.

[mibi]

i'm having a hard time understanding many requests but that's just how the foundry works. anyway i'm against numbers because they can cause confusion and you can relate more to names than to numbers. i'm really fond of siam for example because it's an easy to defend border. would i be able to say i'm fon of asia 8? i don't think so. imagine the classic map with numbers. would anybod play it? no. people find it easyer to realte to names than to numbers. names add flavour they add feeling they even add a reason to attack a certain territory. i don't want to attack plains 4 from plains 5 i want my armies from shadow plains to crush the enemy in valley of death.
and about the cluttering issue. i understand usingnames may cause many font issues, i know it because i'm having the same problem on AoM map but in time and with feedback a suitable font (size shadow effects, etc)

I was reffering to Siam on the South East Asia map in which you would only know the what continent Siam is if you were already familiar with the geography of Siam.
http://www.conquerclub.com/maps/Asia.S.jpg

as far as using names, there are places where no name will fit on the seige map, so no matter how much you want to attack Supior Inner Wall from Central Great Hall, its not going to happen on the map, only in the XML.

I would like to attack from the valley of death too, but even the scale of this map doesnt support such grandiose names like that. It's like taking your back yard and calling the corner by the fence, The Serpents Lair. This map is more of a tacticle siege than a sprawling LOTR style fantasy.

actually a LOTR style fantasy has more appeal to the masses than a numerical map. that's the issue.

anyway. it's 8.15 am and i just got home after the night shift. i'll hit the shower and go to bed now. i'll post more after i wake up. and if i get som inspiration i will suggest some names.

LOTR has the luxury of names because it's an atlas style map. I think you need to use your imagination more. you will still be attacking "the Woods camp 2 from the Swamp 4" its not like its going to be attacking WC2 from S4" like KOTM or chinese checkers.

but feel free to come up with some names, just keep them short in small territories and they should be place specific, otherwise its as pointless as the hong kong map.

[vakEirn79]

I think it would be quicker to find Swamp 3 then some random name like Spooky Bogs, where i have to search the WHOLE map to find Spooky Bogs, rather with swamp 3, i already know where the swamp is, and all it takes is .2 seconds to find the number 3.

On a fictional map with territory names which have no ties to actual places, I'd hate to be looking for specific names. In a lot of games I play, I'm a huge stickler for "flavor" (a term carried over from when I used to play M:tG), but I don't see a reason for naming territories which really have no unique properties to distinguish it from other territories in the vicinity. I guess there are gameplay reasons, but is taking a few extra seconds to double-check the number really a huge problem? (an actual question, not sarcastic. I don't play Freestyle, so I've never been affected by it)

actually a LOTR style fantasy has more appeal to the masses than a numerical map. that's the issue.

The LOTR map represents countries and their provinces. In the LOTR world politics exist, countries are governed, and there are pre-established important landmarks. Since the Middle Earth map is supposed to represent Tolkien's Middle Earth accurately, it's pretty much a requirement that the territories are assigned their unique names.

This map, however, doesn't correspond to anything. Also, I don't think mibi has ever mentioned that it is to be a fantasy-based map (admittedly I have not read through every post in this topic). If territories start getting names like "Spooky Bog" and "Golden Fields", I think that would make it feel more incomplete, since:
- If the map is to be assumed as fantasy, then what is the basis? How are we supposed to "connect" to this world? Which territories are thematically important?
- If one assumes the map isn't based in fantasy, then who is naming these territories? I'm sure army commanders don't lay out a map and proceed to assign a creative name to every area. Also, if a territory is named, then presumably its borders have some significance too. So while you can attribute certain names to common reference (i.e. The Spooky Bog, maybe), why are the armies going to the trouble of carefully allocating and naming every single piece of land? I think a name like Swamp 1 is closer to what an army might practically use, and the borders can be attributed to a general division of an area, instead of seeming like there's some reason why Plains 2 is a pentagon while Plains 7 is a square.

Here there isn't a "Light Tan 2", instead it is called "Plains 2" and you have to look up at the legend to see what color the Plains are... and you might get it confused with River Camp which has some of that same color in it.

I have no experience with graphics editing, so I'm not sure how hard this is, but would it be possible to put a watermark label on the regions? I doubt that anyone is going to confuse Plains with River Camp, but Forest and Swamp might cause some ambiguity. Labels would clear that up, but it might be hard to label the regions in the castle.

[mibi]

thank you vakEirn79 for such reasoned comments

[hulmey]

I think Mibi, should be given the choice on wether he wants them as names or numbers...

Some want numbers and some want names....So the deciding vote should be the map makers....

I for one think there shouldnt be a problem with just numbers and think the names really make this map look worse...

Maybe Mibi you could make a key I.e, patch of swamp area with swamp next to it in the legend!?!

[mibi]

I think Mibi, should be given the choice on wether he wants them as names or numbers...

Some want numbers and some want names....So the deciding vote should be the map makers....

I for one think there shouldnt be a problem with just numbers and think the names really make this map look worse...

Maybe Mibi you could make a key I.e, patch of swamp area with swamp next to it in the legend!?!

i'll work on some patches

[mibi]

added 'swatches' to the legend. should make it easier to understand for those who have problems understanding.

[sully800]

I think Mibi, should be given the choice on wether he wants them as names or numbers...

Some want numbers and some want names....So the deciding vote should be the map makers....

This I can agree with. I would prefer names but there are plenty of people on both sides of the fence. Mibi has stated clear reasons why he would prefer to keep numbers, and since the foundry doesn't have a specific preference the numbers should stay (unless another issue arises).

Swatches are a good idea for the legend. I also like the idea of a watermark label like KEYOGI has implemented in the revamp of the Middle East. Either will help to clarify which continent is which. However after a quick look the swatches appear to be a bit small and aren't very helpful because of that. I know its a big key so its hard to make the swatches much bigger

[johloh]

-the lake looks kinda empty...what about a lake monster? or a boat?

-i still think 'woods camp' text and 'tunnel' text in the legend is just too dark. you cant read it!

[mibi]

I think Mibi, should be given the choice on wether he wants them as names or numbers...

Some want numbers and some want names....So the deciding vote should be the map makers....

This I can agree with. I would prefer names but there are plenty of people on both sides of the fence. Mibi has stated clear reasons why he would prefer to keep numbers, and since the foundry doesn't have a specific preference the numbers should stay (unless another issue arises).

Swatches are a good idea for the legend. I also like the idea of a watermark label like KEYOGI has implemented in the revamp of the Middle East. Either will help to clarify which continent is which. However after a quick look the swatches appear to be a bit small and aren't very helpful because of that. I know its a big key so its hard to make the swatches much bigger

yeah the swatches are small... they could be bigger but only slightly... but really they arn't there for "reference"... more for "additional reference"

if peopel are still confused, i can further delineate the colors of each area i suppose.

[hulmey]

i think its quite a good idea to do the names like the keyogi done, but it will certainly ruin the graphics espically in the forest!!!

[dcowboys055]

This is a really cool map-i like how it's based off Helm's Deep.

[Qwert]

Helms deep? I dont see any similarity.