The Great Lakes -- [Quenched]

[casper]

I'm still not a fan of the imaginary rivers in Michigan, Ohio, and Illinois/Indiana border. They contribute to there being too many territories accessible from only one other territory. I count seven at the moment: Philly, NYC, Plattsburgh, Evansville, Grand Rapids, Minneapolis, and Peoria. An issue that should be addressed imo.

And also Cincinnati is a major city missing from the map. Any chance it can be worked in?

Anyone else think that Plattsburgh should be renamed Adirondacks? Seems more appropriate since Adirondacks refers to that whole region (have a look on Google maps) and Plattsburgh is just a tiny town. (No offense if anyone lives there.)

Oh and I miss the state/province flags.

[DiM]

*there are 3 army numbers that don't belong in the map: in Lake Huron, in Albany and in Philadelphia
*i don't like the different colours for the lakes. i think the bridges are enough to separate the lakes.
*i don't like the bridges and somehow i don't think there should be bridges, maybe some connecting curved lines?
*i actually really like the font. it sort of gives the impression it flows with the relief of the regions.
*i really don't care about the rivers not being acurate. i think for gameplay reasons they should be kept.
*please make the Harrisburg-Philadelphia a bit bigger. in the small version it will barely be visible.
*the army circles overlap the anchors in different ways. either make them identical or put the anchors in a different place.
*all the borders on the edges of the map are straight except columbus, north bay and ottawa. it would be better to make these straighter. (although it's not realistic)

[mibi]

its really too bad that people like the new legend better. The only reason why someone would say the original legend was hard to read is because they have literacy problems.

Now you have wasted all those great continent names, which were the only good names on the map, since all the other ones are just city names which are generally not very representative of their territory.

Before it was a battle of the great lake states! Now its a battle of a bunch of territories who are only unified because a little color coded graphic in the corner says so. I think you have stripped a lot of character out of the map by removing the BETTER of the legends.


be wary of the foundry's ability to group think

[ruthlessontogeny]

first of all, i love the map. as a resident of the great lakes region, i love the shout-out and would play this game constantly.

on the same note, i must protest your naming the central new york region "albany." first of all, the actual city of albany is situated east of your demarcation, in the area labelled "new york city." secondly, syracuse is widely considered the principal city of central new york state, to the degree that it is often referred to as cny/syr. thirdly, where you have the name "albany" right now is directly over the city of syracuse. it would seem a shame to have your otherwise splendidly accurate map be faulty on this point.

cheers!

[DiM]

be wary of the foundry's ability to group think

actually this group you're talking about is the one that will play on the map so it's opinion counts. yes sometimes the masses make decisions that others don't agree, but hey, it's a democracy in here...until andy comes in and claims dictator rights

[Samus]

I didn't notice this on the previous image, but your territory names are a little wonky... if you get my meaning. Some letters are higer/lower than others next to them.

I believe the texture effect is being applied to the territory names. I'm not sure if that was intentional or accidental, but the word "wonky" is a pretty accurate description for how it looks. So yeah, redo the text without the textures.

For the text, you could perhaps have it "standing up" perpendicular to the map itself, to highlight the text without the fading.

Still a good suggestion for the bonus legend.

For the ports, I would very much like some sort of graphic that physically connects the lake and the land, like a pier. This will make it much more clear that it is only connecting those two territories.

You need to do something about the border around the lakes to indicate that, aside from the ports, they do not connect with the land territories. Perhaps do some sort of 3D land rise so that the land is above the lakes, and only the piers go down to it. (i.e., sink the lakes slightly)

For the bridges and lake connections, I thought a 3D bridge with a two-way arrow running underneath it would look good and be much more clear.

You need to shrink the mountains between Scranton and Harrisburg to make it more clear those territories connect.

I'm somewhat torn on the rivers. I think from a visual perspective they look great as is, but at the same time they are rather thin and often the divisions take a closer look. I could see a lot of people making the mistake that certain territories connect, like Madison and Minneapolis.

I would change North Bay to no longer be a port. This would both reduce Ontario to 4 borders instead of 5, and give the Great Lakes one territory that isn't a border (Lake Huron). Both regions would then be MUCH more holdable, whereas the way they are now neither is a viable region to go for.

I still think all these things are true.

[vakEirn79]

Before it was a battle of the great lake states! Now its a battle of a bunch of territories who are only unified because a little color coded graphic in the corner says so. I think you have stripped a lot of character out of the map by removing the BETTER of the legends.

I think so too. Since the map represents an actual geographical location, it feels much more engaging to me if the states are referred to by name. Also, I'm Canadian, and I don't know US states off the top of my head. On this map, the only two I recognize immediately are Michigan and New York. I can think of Ohio, Illinois, Minnesota, and Indiana if I look through some of the city names within those regions, and I would have to look up Wisconsin every time if I wanted to refer to it by name. It would certainly take away a lot of the "flavor" of the map if I had to tell my teammates "I'm going for the yellow area".

Also, I thought the perspective text was a really interesting style for the legend, and seemed much more integrated with the style of the map. The current legend (and also the text for Lake bonuses) looks really tacked-on.

*i actually really like the font. it sort of gives the impression it flows with the relief of the regions

I agree with this too. It might look odd at first glance, but if you pay a bit of attention to it, you notice that the text is contouring with the relief of the map, which adds to the feel that the whole thing is a map laid out on a table. To me, the slight misalignment of the letters don't really hinder my reading; The human mind processes words as blocks anyway, not as a string of individual characters. However, I can certainly understand the argument to have territory names stand out and be easily legible.

The only problem I have with the territory names right now is how the words tilt in odd directions. For example, the text for Int'l Falls and Minneapolis are mostly parallel, while Duluth is tilted at an angle from those two. Reading the three names involves a mental re-adjustment in perspective for the middle one, which is somewhat awkward.

[mibi]

[quote="vakEirn79"]
It would certainly take away a lot of the "flavor" of the map if I had to tell my teammates "I'm going for the yellow area". /quote]

Yes exactly. It is much more fun to be able to defend and hold New York than "the orange area" which to people unfamiliar with the geography of the great lakes, might as well be a random collection of territories, with no name even!

oh and, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

[MR. Nate]

Your territory names are a little wonky

As for the ports- your intention is for them to only be able to attack lakes they border correct? So Detroit could only attack Lake Erie (which I guess is why you extended the dark blue above the detroit-windsor bridge). I think a better solution would be to move that bridge so it connects Saginaw and Windsor. That way the bridge crosses exactly at the lake borders as is the case with every other bridge.

The Detroit-Windsor bridge is there, because it is there in real like. Saiginaw and Windsor don't connect, that's why he made it like that.

There's a lot of liberty here both ways, because Lake St. Claire isn't a great Lake, and it takes up the space between Erie & Huron. There is technically a connection between Saginaw / Windsor: The Blue Water bridge runs between Port Huron & Port Edward where Lake Huron runs into the St. Clair River.

Whichever legend is decided on, I think it is important to retain the names as much a possible. I also like the clouds as a background for the legend, and the new port symbols are nice, they have a "Great Lakes" feel to them.

[mibi]

the ports with numbers on them look like smiley faces, especially with the 88. thats what i thought they were at first. they should be moved to the coast.

[WidowMakers]

Here is a quick 1/2 update. As the poll is showing, we are about 50/50 on the bonus lauyout. Here is a good mix (I think) for that. I realize all of the changes (names mainly) are not done yet. I will get to them next and hopefully provide a complete update tomorrow. I will be factoring in all suggestions that apply.

[fluffybunnykins]

I voted for the version of the perspective key... It just fits beautifully and continues the unique flavour of the map. I think I prefer page 2 to this most recent update, as well. The fading colour blocks might look great... on a different map ;o)
I don't get the bit about 1-3 lakes etc.

[AndyDufresne]

The lakes is confusing at first, and it took me a moment to understand one column was bonus and the other was number of regions needed. Similar to the Crowns and Kings of the KotM map. Look into clearing that up.


--Andy

[wiggybowler]

Ireally like this map and can't wait to play it. My only thing is that it is hard to tell where the lakes borders are at other lakes

[WidowMakers]

Ireally like this map and can't wait to play it. My only thing is that it is hard to tell where the lakes borders are at other lakes

I will be explaining this in the next update. The lakes are divided by the bridges.

[plysprtz]

i like the map but the colors arent working for me the pink purple and blue just arent working right for me

[WidowMakers]

BIG BIG UPDATE AND INFO
PLEASE READ ALL BEFORE POSTING

*there are 3 army numbers that don't belong in the map: in Lake Huron, in Albany and in Philadelphia

They are gone.

*i don't like the different colours for the lakes. i think the bridges are enough to separate the lakes.

They are changes back. I originally did that to distinguish the 5 different lakes. Not the lakes border between bridges.

*i don't like the bridges and somehow i don't think there should be bridges, maybe some connecting curved lines?

I will run a poll and see what everyone thinks.

*i really don't care about the rivers not being acurate. i think for gameplay reasons they should be kept.

We all can discuss the overall layout and playability of the map in terms of borders once the number of territories is reached.

*please make the Harrisburg-Philadelphia a bit bigger. in the small version it will barely be visible.

It is done

*the army circles overlap the anchors in different ways. either make them identical or put the anchors in a different place.

Fixed

its really too bad that people like the new legend better. The only reason why someone would say the original legend was hard to read is because they have literacy problems.
Now you have wasted all those great continent names, which were the only good names on the map, since all the other ones are just city names which are generally not very representative of their territory.
Before it was a battle of the great lake states! Now its a battle of a bunch of territories who are only unified because a little color coded graphic in the corner says so. I think you have stripped a lot of character out of the map by removing the BETTER of the legends.
be wary of the foundry's ability to group think

I have combined the best of both worlds in this update.

on the same note, i must protest your naming the central new york region "albany." first of all, the actual city of albany is situated east of your demarcation, in the area labelled "new york city." secondly, syracuse is widely considered the principal city of central new york state, to the degree that it is often referred to as cny/syr. thirdly, where you have the name "albany" right now is directly over the city of syracuse. it would seem a shame to have your otherwise splendidly accurate map be faulty on this point.
cheers!

I am going to have a post with every state/province and their territories. Right now there are 49 territories minus 5 lakes for a total of 44 to be named. Most of them are good but I would like everyone to comment on the names they would like to change. Once I have all of the totals we can vote if there is any issue. PLEASE WAIT TO ADVISE ON NAMING UNTIL I MAKE UP THE LIST. THANKS

The lakes is confusing at first, and it took me a moment to understand one column was bonus and the other was number of regions needed. Similar to the Crowns and Kings of the KotM map. Look into clearing that up.
--Andy

I think the new map fixes this issue. The lakes bonus id explained better now.

i like the map but the colors arent working for me the pink purple and blue just arent working right for me

I had no real reason for these colors I just needed different ones. Does anyone else want different colors?

Here are the updated maps.






HELP PICK THE BEST NAMES FOR THE MAP
Below is each State/Province. The names for each territory are also listed. I am assuming that the number of territories is not increasing. Right now all we are going is adjusting the names. If you have an issue with naming then please copy the State/Province with the current territory names. Place your suggestion to the right of the current name. If someone makes a suggestion that you also like please do not repeat the suggestion. If there are any conflicts a poll will be setup to deal with them.

Indiana
Goshen (my hometown I will not change it)
EVANSVILLE
INDIANAPOLIS

Illinois
CHICAGO
PEORIA
CHAMPAIGN
EAST ST. LOUIS
MT. VERNON

Wisconsin
MADISON
MILWAUKEE
EAU CLAIRE
GREEN BAY

Minnesota
MINNEAPOLIS
DULUTH
INTERNATIONAL FALLS

Ontario
GREENSTONE
THUNDER BAY
MOOSONEE
SAULT STE MARIE
SUDBURY
NORTH BAY
WINDSOR
TORONTO
OTTAWA

New York
NEW YORK CITY
SYRACUSE
BUFFALO
PLATTSBURGH

Pennsylvania
HARRISBURG
ERIE
PITTSBURGH
PHILADELPHIA

Ohio
CLEVELAND
COLUMBUS
CINCINNATI
DAYTON
TOLEDO

Michigan
KALAMAZOO
DETROIT
SAGINAW
GRAND RAPIDS
MACKINAC
ST. IGNACE
MARQUETTE

And onto the final stretch.
Below is a picture of the excel file I use to approximate the bonuses for the territories. You can find the file here:
http://jmhooton.iweb.bsu.edu/joel/GL/GLBONUSCALC.xls

Base on the territory count/borders/etc the bonus can be calculated. Now you understand the reasoning behind my numbers. I made this based off of another picture I found in the underground map in the foundry.

I think that is it. Hope this is not too big.

[DiM]

i also posted this:

*all the borders on the edges of the map are straight except columbus, north bay and ottawa. it would be better to make these straighter. (although it's not realistic)

it's not a big deal, i guess i'm the only one bothered by this. i know i'm a freak

PS: other than that, no comments at the moment.

[Samus]

DiM, there appears to be a bug with the forums in which WidowMakers cannot read my posts. That is the only explanation I can come up with for why he hasn't responded to any of them. Perhaps you could relay my concerns to him, as it seems he can still read your posts.

I didn't notice this on the previous image, but your territory names are a little wonky... if you get my meaning. Some letters are higer/lower than others next to them.

I believe the texture effect is being applied to the territory names. I'm not sure if that was intentional or accidental, but the word "wonky" is a pretty accurate description for how it looks. So yeah, redo the text without the textures.

For the text, you could perhaps have it "standing up" perpendicular to the map itself, to highlight the text without the fading.

Still a good suggestion for the bonus legend.

For the ports, I would very much like some sort of graphic that physically connects the lake and the land, like a pier. This will make it much more clear that it is only connecting those two territories.

You need to do something about the border around the lakes to indicate that, aside from the ports, they do not connect with the land territories. Perhaps do some sort of 3D land rise so that the land is above the lakes, and only the piers go down to it. (i.e., sink the lakes slightly)

For the bridges and lake connections, I thought a 3D bridge with a two-way arrow running underneath it would look good and be much more clear.

I still think all these things are true.

[Bad Speler]

This map is going great

Your excel file says that the Wisconsin bonus should be 4 but the map says 5.

I live in Ontario, and i have to say that your choices of names are good. Not sure about Greenstone though but the again i dont know any cities in that region.

The flag background for Ontario seems a bit too strong for me. It may just be the contrastibg colours on the flag, but it stands out more then the other state flags.

Lakes look a bit to bright in my opinion.

The text at the bottom of the map doesnt seem to follow the slant of the rest of the map

[keiths31]

This map is going great


I live in Ontario, and i have to say that your choices of names are good. Not sure about Greenstone though but the again i dont know any cities in that region.

I live in Thunder Bay and I am headed up to Greenstone tomorrow. It is accurate.

[mibi]

Plattsburg should be North Country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Country%2C_New_York

[WidowMakers]

DiM, there appears to be a bug with the forums in which WidowMakers cannot read my posts. That is the only explanation I can come up with for why he hasn't responded to any of them. Perhaps you could relay my concerns to him, as it seems he can still read your posts.

I didn't notice this on the previous image, but your territory names are a little wonky... if you get my meaning. Some letters are higer/lower than others next to them.

I believe the texture effect is being applied to the territory names. I'm not sure if that was intentional or accidental, but the word "wonky" is a pretty accurate description for how it looks. So yeah, redo the text without the textures.

I have also addressed this. The text is vector based. It is trying to maintain the text an a slight angle. At these smaller fonts the text wobbles. There is no effect on the layers.

For the text, you could perhaps have it "standing up" perpendicular to the map itself, to highlight the text without the fading.

Still a good suggestion for the bonus legend.[/quote]
The current legend has both of the things most others liked. So it has been addressed.

For the ports, I would very much like some sort of graphic that physically connects the lake and the land, like a pier. This will make it much more clear that it is only connecting those two territories.

You need to do something about the border around the lakes to indicate that, aside from the ports, they do not connect with the land territories. Perhaps do some sort of 3D land rise so that the land is above the lakes, and only the piers go down to it. (i.e., sink the lakes slightly)

For the bridges and lake connections, I thought a 3D bridge with a two-way arrow running underneath it would look good and be much more clear.

I did not look into doing this for the reason that the map is already very cluttered with things in the territories. If there are problems with the current system and others agree. Later after the names and layout are addressed we can go back and evaluate the piers.

[Enigma]

This map is going great

Your excel file says that the Wisconsin bonus should be 4 but the map says 5.

same thing i was going to say- theres no way wisconsin is worth 5.

i also think ohio should be 3 and not 4. the extra territory doesnt seem to deserve an extra army.

[Samus]

I hope you didn't take my sarcasm too seriously, I was only kidding.

I didn't notice this on the previous image, but your territory names are a little wonky... if you get my meaning. Some letters are higer/lower than others next to them.

I believe the texture effect is being applied to the territory names. I'm not sure if that was intentional or accidental, but the word "wonky" is a pretty accurate description for how it looks. So yeah, redo the text without the textures.

I have also addressed this. The text is vector based. It is trying to maintain the text an a slight angle. At these smaller fonts the text wobbles. There is no effect on the layers.

Well I was just guessing what might be the cause, but the problem still remains, the text needs to be straightened.

For the text, you could perhaps have it "standing up" perpendicular to the map itself, to highlight the text without the fading.

Still a good suggestion for the bonus legend.

The current legend has both of the things most others liked. So it has been addressed.

I think it's still a good suggestion, even if it isn't "needed." You should at least try it and see if it looks better.

For the ports, I would very much like some sort of graphic that physically connects the lake and the land, like a pier. This will make it much more clear that it is only connecting those two territories.

You need to do something about the border around the lakes to indicate that, aside from the ports, they do not connect with the land territories. Perhaps do some sort of 3D land rise so that the land is above the lakes, and only the piers go down to it. (i.e., sink the lakes slightly)

For the bridges and lake connections, I thought a 3D bridge with a two-way arrow running underneath it would look good and be much more clear.

I did not look into doing this for the reason that the map is already very cluttered with things in the territories. If there are problems with the current system and others agree. Later after the names and layout are addressed we can go back and evaluate the piers.

For the bridges and piers, I can understand where you're coming from. Maybe this is something we can revisit later on.

But the division of lakes from their surrounding land territories remains a more immediate issue, several others have mentioned it. I do not think doing a 3D sink effect on the lakes would cause any clutter, and could potentially make it more clear that the lakes are separated from the land. And it would look damn cool!

On the other hand, I couldn't produce a crooked line if you gave me an hour using photoshop, so for all I know this is not graphically feasible.