Why is the Pearl Harbor Map still available in this game?

[soulja]

Am I missing the joke, i.e. is this a trap or something? I thought this map was fixed for more even play, but it is still exponentially(spelling) uneven I cannot begin to describe it. Which makes me wonder, did I stumble into bug/trap of some kind used by clans, when I entered a triples game on this board? Someone enlighten me, because this blows. Thanks!

[rdsrds2120]

Am I missing the joke, i.e. is this a trap or something? I thought this map was fixed for more even play, but it is still exponentially(spelling) uneven I cannot begin to describe it. Which makes me wonder, did I stumble into bug/trap of some kind used by clans, when I entered a triples game on this board? Someone enlighten me, because this blows. Thanks!

It's a tricky map, yes, but there is no joke involved. It'll take some analysis and probably BOB for someone to learn it quickly and efficiently, but even those alone cannot beat the effectiveness of good old practice. Play some more games on it, read the log, try and develop some tactics, and good luck!

-rd

[soulja]

Yeah, but what good are tactics when one team starts the game with 24 and your team starts with a total of 13?

[natty dread]

The map was changed at one point, but then lots of people didn't like the change so it was changed back.

[Cyantist]

I liked the change; it was better than nothing, but this map needs a complete revamp (there must be another forum full of complainers here somewhere) or someone else needs to take up the idea.

The massively uneven drops are what really get me.
This last game Team 1 started with 29 and we started with 15 (and I never seem to be on that lucky side, natch).

[jefjef]

Am I missing the joke, i.e. is this a trap or something? I thought this map was fixed for more even play, but it is still exponentially(spelling) uneven I cannot begin to describe it. Which makes me wonder, did I stumble into bug/trap of some kind used by clans, when I entered a triples game on this board? Someone enlighten me, because this blows. Thanks!

It's a tricky map, yes, but there is no joke involved. It'll take some analysis and probably BOB for someone to learn it quickly and efficiently, but even those alone cannot beat the effectiveness of good old practice. Play some more games on it, read the log, try and develop some tactics, and good luck!

-rd

You missed his point. The drop - the drop - the drop. There is no balance to the map. The planes bonuses really need to be revamped.

[Commander9]

Yeah, but what good are tactics when one team starts the game with 24 and your team starts with a total of 13?

I liked the change; it was better than nothing, but this map needs a complete revamp (there must be another forum full of complainers here somewhere) or someone else needs to take up the idea.

The massively uneven drops are what really get me.
This last game Team 1 started with 29 and we started with 15 (and I never seem to be on that lucky side, natch).

You missed his point. The drop - the drop - the drop. There is no balance to the map. The planes bonuses really need to be revamped.

Agreed with all of the above. Possibly the worst map currently in CC - the drop decides pretty much 80% of the game.

[DoomYoshi]

That's why it is popular for team games, since it is less likely that a player will start with a huge bonus. It is actually one of my favourite maps, and I can assure you that a bad drop can be overcome. Just don't play it with less than 6 players.

[Joodoo]

Just don't play it with less than 6 players.

At least I have an excuse for losing.

[Cyantist]

That's why it is popular for team games, since it is less likely that a player will start with a huge bonus. It is actually one of my favourite maps, and I can assure you that a bad drop can be overcome. Just don't play it with less than 6 players.

This reply just doesn't make sense.
This thread is mainly about how likely it is that a player (or players) will start with a huge bonus.
On most maps, bad drops can be overcome, because the bad drops aren't so catastrophic for the unlucky team.
But pretty much every game I've played on this map have been so completely lopsided to the point of absurdity.

[jefjef]

I don't plan on playing anything except quads on this map the way it is.

[cairnswk]

Am I missing the joke, i.e. is this a trap or something? I thought this map was fixed for more even play, but it is still exponentially(spelling) uneven I cannot begin to describe it. Which makes me wonder, did I stumble into bug/trap of some kind used by clans, when I entered a triples game on this board? Someone enlighten me, because this blows. Thanks!

Hi soulja, the map was changed earlier on, but then everyone (who provided feedback) didn't like the changes made, and most thought the original idea was better....
The map was never meant to be totally balanced! It was meant to give those who get the "japanese" drop a better chance with more firepower to reflect the reality of what actually at Pearl Harbour i.e. the US got blitzed in an initial attack...
so if you take that idea and battle it out strategically, you might find that NOT always will whoever obtains the Japanese drop advantage win.
There are no bugs or traps. And good luck in future games, if you choose to play the map again.
Regards

[gradybridges]

The map was never meant to be totally balanced! It was meant to give those who get the "japanese" drop a better chance with more firepower to reflect the reality of what actually at Pearl Harbour i.e. the US got blitzed in an initial attack...
so if you take that idea and battle it out strategically, you might find that NOT always will whoever obtains the Japanese drop advantage win.
There are no bugs or traps. And good luck in future games, if you choose to play the map again.
Regards

That's stupid. you are basically flipping a coin to see who wins in a team game. My limited experience o this map I've never seen a fair drop. If it was designed to be unfair then it should be scrapped.

[jefjef]

The map was never meant to be totally balanced! It was meant to give those who get the "japanese" drop a better chance with more firepower to reflect the reality of what actually at Pearl Harbour i.e. the US got blitzed in an initial attack...
so if you take that idea and battle it out strategically, you might find that NOT always will whoever obtains the Japanese drop advantage win.
There are no bugs or traps. And good luck in future games, if you choose to play the map again.
Regards

That's stupid. you are basically flipping a coin to see who wins in a team game. My limited experience o this map I've never seen a fair drop. If it was designed to be unfair then it should be scrapped.

Well stated by grady. This is a GAME site - not a reenactment. The map should have balance to the drop. It's one thing for someone to strategically gain the advantageous bonuses (the Japanese had to plan and then implement the attack). It's entirely a different thing to have the advantage just given... It's a fun map BUT I will no longer touch it unless it's a quads. It really needs to be fixed.

[Joodoo]

The map was never meant to be totally balanced! It was meant to give those who get the "japanese" drop a better chance with more firepower to reflect the reality of what actually at Pearl Harbour i.e. the US got blitzed in an initial attack...
so if you take that idea and battle it out strategically, you might find that NOT always will whoever obtains the Japanese drop advantage win.
There are no bugs or traps. And good luck in future games, if you choose to play the map again.
Regards

That's stupid. you are basically flipping a coin to see who wins in a team game. My limited experience o this map I've never seen a fair drop. If it was designed to be unfair then it should be scrapped.

Well stated by grady. This is a GAME site - not a reenactment. The map should have balance to the drop. It's one thing for someone to strategically gain the advantageous bonuses (the Japanese had to plan and then implement the attack). It's entirely a different thing to have the advantage just given... It's a fun map BUT I will no longer touch it unless it's a quads. It really needs to be fixed.

I think something similar can be said about Stalingrad, as anyone who holds a lot of planes at the beginning has an immense advantage.
However, given the complexity of the map, any specific flaw in it is largely overshadowed by complaints about the overall feeling of confusion that players receive while playing it.

[perchorin]

The map was never meant to be totally balanced! It was meant to give those who get the "japanese" drop a better chance with more firepower to reflect the reality of what actually at Pearl Harbour i.e. the US got blitzed in an initial attack...
so if you take that idea and battle it out strategically, you might find that NOT always will whoever obtains the Japanese drop advantage win.
There are no bugs or traps. And good luck in future games, if you choose to play the map again.
Regards

That's stupid. you are basically flipping a coin to see who wins in a team game. My limited experience o this map I've never seen a fair drop. If it was designed to be unfair then it should be scrapped.

Agreed

[jefjef]

The map was never meant to be totally balanced! It was meant to give those who get the "japanese" drop a better chance with more firepower to reflect the reality of what actually at Pearl Harbour i.e. the US got blitzed in an initial attack...
so if you take that idea and battle it out strategically, you might find that NOT always will whoever obtains the Japanese drop advantage win.
There are no bugs or traps. And good luck in future games, if you choose to play the map again.
Regards

That's stupid. you are basically flipping a coin to see who wins in a team game. My limited experience o this map I've never seen a fair drop. If it was designed to be unfair then it should be scrapped.

Well stated by grady. This is a GAME site - not a reenactment. The map should have balance to the drop. It's one thing for someone to strategically gain the advantageous bonuses (the Japanese had to plan and then implement the attack). It's entirely a different thing to have the advantage just given... It's a fun map BUT I will no longer touch it unless it's a quads. It really needs to be fixed.

I think something similar can be said about Stalingrad, as anyone who holds a lot of planes at the beginning has an immense advantage.
However, given the complexity of the map, any specific flaw in it is largely overshadowed by complaints about the overall feeling of confusion that players receive while playing it.

Not quite the same. The Stalingrad planes have no bonus value and have limited tactical impact. P-Harbor is well known to see the 1st mover have double digit bonus. If he/she has good dice and basic strategic sense it's pretty well game over.

BTW. Stalingrad is not confusing at all.

[pascalleke]

i must say stalingrad doesnt reach pearl harbour in any way . Pearl harbour is indeed a flip of the coin wich drop u get , but as a frequent player of that map , its on team games not impossible to overcome bad drops , altough that would ask for some luck on the dice tough. It wont be a bad idea to change some things there tough to make it a more even map

[codeblue1018]

i must say stalingrad doesnt reach pearl harbour in any way . Pearl harbour is indeed a flip of the coin wich drop u get , but as a frequent player of that map , its on team games not impossible to overcome bad drops , altough that would ask for some luck on the dice tough. It wont be a bad idea to change some things there tough to make it a more even map

Pasc, remember the two trips games of many that we played on that map; the one in which we had phenomenal drop and you made the comment that the game was over after our 1st turn, lol? We lost it. The other game, similar concept but we had the bad drop; we came back from the dead and won in a 20 round battle. Point being, obstacles can be overcome and sure things, aren't sure things. I do agree that drops surly favor one team most of the time but with the dice in this game, anything is possible.

[Inquisitor]

It is a great map. Although in games with less players, drop bonuses may be unfair, it's great fun.

[drunkmonkey]

Any lead can be overcome, if the dice play into your hands. That's not the point. This map has the most unbalanced drop of any I've ever seen. "Play with big teams" isn't a good rebuttal. If you concede that a map is unfair for most settings, isn't that a reason to put it back into beta for a revamp?

[JBlombier]

If you concede that a map is unfair for most settings, isn't that a reason to put it back into beta for a revamp?

This sums up what I was thinking as well.

A game of CC can be determined by the drop or by the dice. We all know that and have embraced that. But it shouldn't be statistically determined by an unfair drop for whichever team is the luckiest. I highly doubt anyone would have a big problem with a revamp, except for the mapmaker. I just can't figure out why cairnswk, who is a great mapmaker, does see how this map is not balanced, but thinks it is okay. The map has too much potential to throw it away all together, but a revamp would be great.

[Bones2484]

Any lead can be overcome, if the dice play into your hands. That's not the point. This map has the most unbalanced drop of any I've ever seen. "Play with big teams" isn't a good rebuttal. If you concede that a map is unfair for most settings, isn't that a reason to put it back into beta for a revamp?

Well said.

I hadn't played this map too often recently but started a 1v1 game on it today in a tournament (wish it didn't include this map, but oh well): Game 9275333

After my opponent took his turn first with a deploy of 18, I was trailing by 32 armies and only had a 5 deploy with no bonuses. Fantastic.

[Mustapha Mond]

I've played over 1,100 games on Pearl Harbor -- it's my favorite map in CC. I've played every variation hundreds of times -- singles, quads, terminator, assassin, fog, no fog, all kinds of spoils, manual, automatic, etc.

Sure, occasionally the drop gives an advantage to one player or team, but really, no worse than, say, a good Australia drop on Classic. In fact, there's a key difference: unless the person with the killer drop plays 1st and goes purely defensive, their bonus can be destroyed very quickly. Yes, the planes give big bonuses, but those bonuses are almost always extremely difficult to defend.

Simple strategy: stack to kill the plane bonus.

There are all kinds of maps in CC on which certain games are terribly imbalanced. For example, how do you think the person goes last in an 8-player Terminator on Doodle Earth feels? Or how about Jamaica quads, in which it's quite possible for the team who goes 1st to have about a 20% chance of eliminating an opposing player in round 2? And there's all kinds of terrible, imbalanced possible drops in Arms Race.

I say, if you don't like it, don't play it. There are plenty of us who love it just the way it is.

[jefjef]

The 6 trips games I have played: Opponents went 1st in 5. Opponents won 5. This map is by far the most unbalanced map on CC and requires revamping.

2011-05-06 09:12:30 - Game has been initialized
2011-05-06 20:35:51 - lynch5762 received 3 troops for holding 2 Kates
2011-05-06 20:35:51 - lynch5762 received 3 troops for holding 2 Zeroes
2011-05-06 20:35:51 - lynch5762 received 4 troops for 12 regions
10 deploy

2010-12-15 16:39:31 - Game has been initialized
2010-12-16 02:30:38 - patrickaa317 received 3 troops for holding 2 Vals
2010-12-16 02:30:38 - patrickaa317 received 1 troops for holding Oil AA
2010-12-16 02:30:38 - patrickaa317 received 1 troops for holding NY AA
2010-12-16 02:30:38 - patrickaa317 received 4 troops for 12 regions
9 deploy

2010-12-07 01:16:28 - Game has been initialized
2010-12-07 04:34:47 - nachito received 3 troops for holding 2 Vals
2010-12-07 04:34:47 - nachito received 4 troops for 12 regions
7 deploy

2010-12-04 07:03:50 - Game has been initialized
2010-12-04 07:25:51 - Rouan received 3 troops for holding 2 Zeroes
2010-12-04 07:25:51 - Rouan received 1 troops for holding FIS AA
2010-12-04 07:25:51 - Rouan received 4 troops for 12 regions
8 deploy

2010-12-04 07:03:55 - Game has been initialized
2010-12-04 07:30:32 - Rouan received 3 troops for holding 2 Vals
2010-12-04 07:30:32 - Rouan received 3 troops for holding 2 Kates
2010-12-04 07:30:32 - Rouan received 1 troops for holding FIN AA
2010-12-04 07:30:32 - Rouan received 1 troops for holding NY AA
2010-12-04 07:30:32 - Rouan received 4 troops for 12 regions
12 deploy

2009-06-22 10:41:41 - Game has been initialized
2009-06-22 11:07:52 - Nola_Lifer received 3 troops for holding 2 Vals
2009-06-22 11:07:52 - Nola_Lifer received 1 troops for holding Oil AA
2009-06-22 11:07:52 - Nola_Lifer received 1 troops for holding NY AA
2009-06-22 11:07:52 - Nola_Lifer received 4 troops for 12 regions
9 deploy