Algorithm of 400 Clan Ranking (Sep 30, 2011)

[FarangDemon]

I just now realized we accidentally double-counted the results from CL3 quarterfinals IA vs MYTH and KoRT vs LOW in our clan war results data file.
My apologies to TOFU, who now come out at #1 on the day I drew up that last ranking (June 17th), beating KoRT by a mere 3 points, at 1368 to 1365.
That was the only change in ranks caused by the correction.

Since we are close to doing a monthly update, we'll just wait until then to publish the corrected and updated rankings.

I will publish the clan war results data file we are using to a URL in the future so members from the community can point out any possible future mistakes. However, long term, I think the best way to avoid these errors and the duplication of effort in tabulating results would be to have an official clan war database.

[Dako]

Ha, funny upset.

CDs - why don't we stick this thread?

[ljex]

Great job FD.

As for us being ranked up with some of the best, that's cool, and like you PM me earlier, maybe now we can get a challenge that we have worked hard for, and IF we do lose then wouldn't we fall down in rank and be put where some people say we "should be". But IF we win, then shouldn't we deserve to be put up where we "should be"?

The pack is not going to be challenging just anyone, we are a brand new clan and have been doing what brand new clans do, challenge new clans... we wanted to get to a spot where we can challenge higher ranked clans.

So ljex, TOFU or whoever else has a problem with us being so high, why not bring us down where you think we deserve to be? We are open for any higher rank clans to challenge us, I am sure the pack leadership will be more then happy.

With this kind of system, isn't it up to those higher ranked "better clans" to but us no names where we belong?

-griff

no top clan is going to face you now with the CC im sure you will get your desired challenge in due time, question is will you live up to the words you are speaking now. Take a serious objective look at your clan challenge results. Who have you beat to deserve a spot in the top 10? Its not like you have lots of experienced players like TOFU did way back when. Please if you really wish to think you are a top 10 clan go right ahead but dont be surprised if when the time comes that you do face a top clan they put you in your place.

Uh.. that was my point exactly, when we play a higher ranked mofo clan, then we get put in our place if we lose and this system is proven great... if we play a higher ranked clan and do happen to hold up to our cockiness (Not gonna lie we have some cocky players but we work hard at winning) and we do happen to win, then we move up and prove this system even more correct...

ah yes because a ranking system should give you a rank you yourself admit at this point you do not deserve. I'm not saying you are not a good clan or that you will never be a top 10 clan, im saying that you have beat no one that makes you deserve to be a top 10 clan at this time.

[merch313]

Great job FD.

As for us being ranked up with some of the best, that's cool, and like you PM me earlier, maybe now we can get a challenge that we have worked hard for, and IF we do lose then wouldn't we fall down in rank and be put where some people say we "should be". But IF we win, then shouldn't we deserve to be put up where we "should be"?

The pack is not going to be challenging just anyone, we are a brand new clan and have been doing what brand new clans do, challenge new clans... we wanted to get to a spot where we can challenge higher ranked clans.

So ljex, TOFU or whoever else has a problem with us being so high, why not bring us down where you think we deserve to be? We are open for any higher rank clans to challenge us, I am sure the pack leadership will be more then happy.

With this kind of system, isn't it up to those higher ranked "better clans" to but us no names where we belong?

-griff

no top clan is going to face you now with the CC im sure you will get your desired challenge in due time, question is will you live up to the words you are speaking now. Take a serious objective look at your clan challenge results. Who have you beat to deserve a spot in the top 10? Its not like you have lots of experienced players like TOFU did way back when. Please if you really wish to think you are a top 10 clan go right ahead but dont be surprised if when the time comes that you do face a top clan they put you in your place.

Uh.. that was my point exactly, when we play a higher ranked mofo clan, then we get put in our place if we lose and this system is proven great... if we play a higher ranked clan and do happen to hold up to our cockiness (Not gonna lie we have some cocky players but we work hard at winning) and we do happen to win, then we move up and prove this system even more correct...

ah yes because a ranking system should give you a rank you yourself admit at this point you do not deserve. I'm not saying you are not a good clan or that you will never be a top 10 clan, im saying that you have beat no one that makes you deserve to be a top 10 clan at this time.

Well I wouldnt say BSS was no one...BSS is an established clan top 15-20 for sure. Lots of good veteran players there. Just sayin

[ljex]

Well I wouldnt say BSS was no one...BSS is an established clan top 15-20 for sure. Lots of good veteran players there. Just sayin

I didnt say BSS was a no one and if it seemed that way that was not my intention. I just dont think beating 5 clans the best of which is somewhere between 15-20 is worthy of a top 10 position with all the competitive clans out there

[Commander9]

I didnt say BSS was a no one and if it seemed that way that was not my intention. I just dont think beating 5 clans the best of which is somewhere between 15-20 is worthy of a top 10 position with all the competitive clans out there

Ljex hit the nail on the head. While PACK is probably the strongest new clan, who is already in the Top 15 probably, I do think that until they beat a more established Top 10 clan, they do not deserve to be there.

[tec805]

ah yes because a ranking system should give you a rank you yourself admit at this point you do not deserve. I'm not saying you are not a good clan or that you will never be a top 10 clan, im saying that you have beat no one that makes you deserve to be a top 10 clan at this time.

Yes, we need to earn our place just the same as anyone else. But it doesn't mean you need to shit all over all the clans we've played

It's my understanding this ranking system rewards performance in wins, putting everyone on an even playing field. That would mean all the "Top 10 Clans" would have to win wars the same as us lowly clans to keep up the numbers. Playing 1 or 2 wars will not keep you at the top if others are winning 7 or 8 wars in the same period. But since the numbers are based upon current rankings, if the clan winning 7 wars was beating only very low ranked clans then the points wouldn't add up enough to cause the "Top 10" concern of losing a spot. But if that clan was to beat enough same ranked clans, and some of the "Top 10" were either losing their wars or not playing enough wars, then the positions on the list would become much more fluid. If you want a "most popular" chart then go check Chuuuuck's - you don't need numbers there.

To say a clan could never reach "Top 10" without beating a clan currently there is stating the "Top 10" are, and will always be, as good as they were when they reached that position. I've only been on CC a little over a year, but I'm sure there are plenty of you long-timers that remember some pretty good clans that have come and gone. Did all of them get beat so severely by KoRT or THOTA that they disbanded? Did they wait to get kicked off the top 10 by losing wars before disbanding? Or did things just change?

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding what I've read - I'm just a computer tech, not very swift with all this stuff.

[Leehar]

The Pack do make a good point tho that they are unlikely to be given a chance to face top-quality opposition, specially considering how medal privileges make it very counter-intuitive to accept challenges from relatively new clans. There's not as much benefit to a higher clan to face them depending on which ranking system is being used. I think even the comprehensive win that tofu had over tnc might have penalized them in qwert's system?

The other glaring inconsistency to me is the "A clan with a ~166-point lead had a 94% chance to win or tie." Thats pretty much exactly the difference between Foed and IA, so there seems to be no scope in this ranking for an upset of that proportion, specially as it ended up being by a pretty comprehensive margin.

And then the last salient point I feel which a ranking like chucks would give better representation of, is that what mechanism is in here for 'splitting' of clans. The most pertinent point being that of tofu's creation. I think the power rankings would have given a nice indication of that with their placing of them in the top 5 immediately, while here they'd be ranked at the latter of the top 20 (by virtue of them starting at 1k). Thereafter all their result would be skewed somewhat with whoever they beat losing more points then they would normally and vice versa...
Another example for that at the latter end of the scale is then a clan like SoW. They just disbanded recently from a place of 37 in your ranking, and now in their new guise of Igni Ferroque they'll jump into the 22nd ranked spot while still containing meaningfully the same players? (similarly with WG who dropped down a bit to 1k when in fact a ranking like the PR I assume would push them up with their important new additions?)

I'm not sure I can provide meaningful solutions, but these are some of the reasons why I mentioned my statement in that post at the beginning of this thread, tho I obviously wasn't sure of exactly why I felt that way, this serves to expound on that a bit. I think this is my problem with any system that starts on an arbitrary number like 1k, and why our points system has so many problems when multi's start over at the beginning (tho I'm not actually equating the 2 - new clan vs new multi- I'm just trying to indicate how it could screw with the ranking system a bit?)
We have so many examples of clans splitting and reincarnating, what effects are they making on your ranking system? I assume we have things like O&H beating Low to get a boost to their points here, and then reforming into Foed to start from the beginning all over again in this ranking, regulators/bss, skyforce etc into afos(?), that little ia split that formed kort etc etc, where perhaps a perspective-based system could more accurately determine the new clans positioning then this?

Also, just as a word to the people I've heard mention a bit over the last pages that this ranking can only improve with time; FD's taking into account all the challenges since the beginning of time, while inputting his decay factor as well, so I'm curious as to see what improvement you expect to see?
Maybe it is apt since a clan like tofu has risen up to the top eventually, but hasn't their been a meaningful difference in the scores they've earned from clans along the way?

I'd also just like to say that I do appreciate the effort you put into this FD, and it really is one of the best numerical systems we've seen, but I'm concerned that it just doesn't pick up some simple instances that are more readily apparent to the naked eye...


Ps. I'm actually hoping to construct an article along the lines of the changes in clan composition that has happened along the way (and which I was referring to in the different splits etc) for the dispatch, so if any of the more experienced clan campaigners are interested in giving their knowledge on these make-ups and break-ups, I'd like to hear about them...

[Commander9]

It's my understanding this ranking system rewards performance in wins, putting everyone on an even playing field. That would mean all the "Top 10 Clans" would have to win wars the same as us lowly clans to keep up the numbers. Playing 1 or 2 wars will not keep you at the top if others are winning 7 or 8 wars in the same period. But since the numbers are based upon current rankings, if the clan winning 7 wars was beating only very low ranked clans then the points wouldn't add up enough to cause the "Top 10" concern of losing a spot. But if that clan was to beat enough same ranked clans, and some of the "Top 10" were either losing their wars or not playing enough wars, then the positions on the list would become much more fluid. If you want a "most popular" chart then go check Chuuuuck's - you don't need numbers there.

First of all, I don't believe anyone was putting any shit on any clan, so there's no need to start a flame war. As far as your post goes:

The main concern that I have with this is that some of the clan might start farming lower clans just to get higher while some of the "Top" clans would only play a few clan wars which would show on the scoreboard. At the very top, most of the clans don't play too many wars and normally play 1 war at a time around every few months, while some clans at the lower half of the specter go on to fight 3-5 wars at the same time continuously, which leaves a very big war gap between those. I personally rate a win in CCup semifinals over X amount of wins against the lower clans. This system is definitely a very good alternative to the current systems that we have and it definitely has a future, but it's also not flawless either. While it is not impossible to become a Top 10 clan without beating one (in any rankings, not just this one), it should be extremely hard as I do believe that there's a reason why those that are in Top 10 are there. If you would look at some other rankings, you would notice that Top 10 is not unchanging and there have been quite a few clans that entered and exited.

My point here is that Top 10 is ever changing, but it normally is a fairly good representation of the best clans in CC and I do believe that in order to become the best, you do have to fight and challenge the best. PACK is definitely an up and coming clan who has great potential, but I do agree with ljex that until you beat one of the more established clans, I personally will not view you guys as a Top 10 Clan.

[ljex]

ah yes because a ranking system should give you a rank you yourself admit at this point you do not deserve. I'm not saying you are not a good clan or that you will never be a top 10 clan, im saying that you have beat no one that makes you deserve to be a top 10 clan at this time.

Yes, we need to earn our place just the same as anyone else. But it doesn't mean you need to shit all over all the clans we've played

It's my understanding this ranking system rewards performance in wins, putting everyone on an even playing field. That would mean all the "Top 10 Clans" would have to win wars the same as us lowly clans to keep up the numbers. Playing 1 or 2 wars will not keep you at the top if others are winning 7 or 8 wars in the same period. But since the numbers are based upon current rankings, if the clan winning 7 wars was beating only very low ranked clans then the points wouldn't add up enough to cause the "Top 10" concern of losing a spot. But if that clan was to beat enough same ranked clans, and some of the "Top 10" were either losing their wars or not playing enough wars, then the positions on the list would become much more fluid. If you want a "most popular" chart then go check Chuuuuck's - you don't need numbers there.

To say a clan could never reach "Top 10" without beating a clan currently there is stating the "Top 10" are, and will always be, as good as they were when they reached that position. I've only been on CC a little over a year, but I'm sure there are plenty of you long-timers that remember some pretty good clans that have come and gone. Did all of them get beat so severely by KoRT or THOTA that they disbanded? Did they wait to get kicked off the top 10 by losing wars before disbanding? Or did things just change?

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding what I've read - I'm just a computer tech, not very swift with all this stuff.

For one, historically there were far less clans and there was often a greater divide between clans. Now clans are much more even all around as the competition increases. Also lets just take the a current top clan as an example, i will use TOFU because they are currently #1 (see FD post about a mistake for why they are above KORT). They could easily play 10-12 challenges a year against clans ranked around 20 and i would be surprised if they lost a single one. That said i think it should be way more beneficial to them to win just one war vs the 2nd ranked clan as that is a truer test of their skill. While competition is increasing there are still large divides that exist at various spots between clans, on such divide is between clans in the top 10 or so and clans below that.

Also are you really that naive to believe clans skills cant get lower? They can lose players, they can begin to care less or other clans may get better and they are lower by comparison. Beyond that there used to not be very many clans so it was way easier to be in the top 10. Your current true rank is where you belong, not any rank you have held in the past.

My point here is that Top 10 is ever changing, but it normally is a fairly good representation of the best clans in CC and I do believe that in order to become the best, you do have to fight and challenge the best. PACK is definitely an up and coming clan who has great potential, but I do agree with ljex that until you beat one of the more established clans, I personally will not view you guys as a Top 10 Clan.

I would even be fine with them being a top 10 clan if they lost to number 7-9 by a game or two or handily beat a 11-13 clan, but the fact that the best clan they have played is somewhere in the 15-20 range...doesnt convince me they deserve to be in the top 10. Its not like they are a new clan like TOFU was with established players from top clans starting a new clan, no they are players from average clans or no clan who came together to form a new clan. This is not to say they will never be a top 10 clan but that they dont deserve to be there now based on their current results

[Dako]

Half of TOFU initial members were absolutely new to clan scene, some new to team games as well.

Also, the best way to get into top 10 - play league or CCup events and devastate your opponents there. People are hard to believe in miracles about new strong clan appearing out of nowhere.

[tec805]

That said i think it should be way more beneficial to them to win just one war vs the 2nd ranked clan as that is a truer test of their skill.

Elitism in it's purest form. Get to the top, play 1 war against only the 1 clan you consider worthy and stay at the top. I prefer the law of averages. Play 10/20/50 games and decide who did better. If they are as good as you expect then they have nothing to lose by playing more games.

Also are you really that naive to believe clans skills cant get lower? They can lose players, they can begin to care less or other clans may get better and they are lower by comparison. Beyond that there used to not be very many clans so it was way easier to be in the top 10. Your current true rank is where you belong, not any rank you have held in the past.

I'm pretty sure my point was even "Top 10" clans can lose position without another clan beating them. To state:

im saying that you have beat no one that makes you deserve to be a top 10 clan at this time.

makes me think you were suggesting the only way to achieve a "Top 10" position was to beat someone already on the list. Are you suggesting once a "clans skills cant get lower" they might fall from the top 10 and their position is left blank until another clan wins a war? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me...

My point here is that Top 10 is ever changing, but it normally is a fairly good representation of the best clans in CC and I do believe that in order to become the best, you do have to fight and challenge the best. PACK is definitely an up and coming clan who has great potential, but I do agree with ljex that until you beat one of the more established clans, I personally will not view you guys as a Top 10 Clan.

Forget about The PACK. Think... football maybe, only based on 2 years worth of data instead of just the current year. You don't win the top spot because you played 1 or 2 games, you get to the top by winning more games then the other teams.

I would even be fine with them being a top 10 clan if they lost to number 7-9 by a game or two or handily beat a 11-13 clan, but the fact that the best clan they have played is somewhere in the 15-20 range...doesnt convince me they deserve to be in the top 10. Its not like they are a new clan like TOFU was with established players from top clans starting a new clan, no they are players from average clans or no clan who came together to form a new clan. This is not to say they will never be a top 10 clan but that they dont deserve to be there now based on their current results

"deserve" has nothing to do with calculations of numbers. I'm sure everyone agrees The PACK isn't top 10 right now. Yes, we have done very well and hope to win more in the future. I'm not arguing about our position on the list, I'm arguing your perception of this list. You are looking at a numbers based list and trying to make it equal another list that is based on votes or a particular persons assessment of their value. Isn't going to happen unless the "Top 10" play, and win, as many wars as everyone else. If you want to discuss a particular clans placement on a "deserve" list, then you are in the wrong thread.

[Qwert]

well, for these list,PACK probably can not be in first 10, because he dont hae enough chalenges, but i dont go so back, and in mine ranking, related only to 2011 chalenges, PACK its so far with hes performance in no1 place. Its have all wins,and its look that have chance to score two more wins in Newcomers cup.
Last year TOFU, had great performance,and definitly will be in no1 place in mine ranking.
If Pack,continue with wins in all chalenges to end of year,he will be no1 clan for 2011 years.
These is like in european footbal,where team from league 2 ,who are promoted in league 1,can be champion like all other team in league 1.

[Commander9]

Forget about The PACK. Think... football maybe, only based on 2 years worth of data instead of just the current year. You don't win the top spot because you played 1 or 2 games, you get to the top by winning more games then the other teams.

Sure. Champion's league has (if we exclude qualifiers) 6 group games (3 opponents) and 7 playoffs games (4 opponents), so basically you just have to beat 7 opponents in order to be considered a strongest club in Europe as long as you have proven yourself before by doing well in domestic leagues. In other words, in order to get the top spot after a successful season you don't have to win that many games, but you do have to take on the strongest clubs in order to become one.

If Pack,continue with wins in all chalenges to end of year,he will be no1 clan for 2011 years.
These is like in european footbal,where team from league 2 ,who are promoted in league 1,can be champion like all other team in league 1.

I don't agree with this bit. No one club in Europe become champions after beating the STRONGEST teams in the world in Champion's league. Lets take Porto for example - they have been dominating Portugal for an extremely long time now (there were a few blips these past few seasons, but they have retaken the title again). They are winning games left and right have the best win ration out of any club in Europe right now, but we don't say that they are the strongest club in Europe. We all agree that Barcelona, due to winning the Champion's League, is the strongest one...

I do see how your ratings can be beneficial and definitely interesting, but I would not name a clan as a best clan of 2011 who didn't do extremely well in the main competitions in Conquer Club: Clan League and CCup.

[FarangDemon]

The other glaring inconsistency to me is the "A clan with a ~166-point lead had a 94% chance to win or tie." Thats pretty much exactly the difference between FOED and IA, so there seems to be no scope in this ranking for an upset of that proportion, specially as it ended up being by a pretty comprehensive margin.

There is scope for this kind of upset. It happened 6% of the time (100 - 94%) in the challenges we looked at. Since then, you have identified one more such upset that we'd expect to happen 6% of the time. But how many of such challenges ended as non-upsets? You really need to count all of them in order to make any kind of argument on the inaccuracy of the value I have reported.

I did not make the 94% figure up to impress you - it is a result of my script compiling how often it was correct based on the most recent clan war results compiled at that time. I will update the accuracy values when we do the next update, this will factor in FOED beating IA.

Maybe the overall accuracy will be slightly lower, maybe not. I haven't looked at all the war outcomes either. Whatever it is, it is what it is, and I'm only providing it to you guys to let you know how accurate the system is.

[ljex]

That said i think it should be way more beneficial to them to win just one war vs the 2nd ranked clan as that is a truer test of their skill.

Elitism in it's purest form. Get to the top, play 1 war against only the 1 clan you consider worthy and stay at the top. I prefer the law of averages. Play 10/20/50 games and decide who did better. If they are as good as you expect then they have nothing to lose by playing more games.

Thats me the elitist i was just saying that one war vs an equal clan should hold more weight than 10 wars vs 10 clans that will be easy wins. If you seriously disagree than you are beyond help, and the fact that you think you deserve a top 10 spot based on your current results is kind of funny. I could care less if you beat a top 10 clan to get in the top 10 but to have the highest ranked clan you beat be the 19th clan and think you deserve to be there based on that is not something i can see many people agreeing with.

Also are you really that naive to believe clans skills cant get lower? They can lose players, they can begin to care less or other clans may get better and they are lower by comparison. Beyond that there used to not be very many clans so it was way easier to be in the top 10. Your current true rank is where you belong, not any rank you have held in the past.

I'm pretty sure my point was even "Top 10" clans can lose position without another clan beating them. To state:

im saying that you have beat no one that makes you deserve to be a top 10 clan at this time.

makes me think you were suggesting the only way to achieve a "Top 10" position was to beat someone already on the list. Are you suggesting once a "clans skills cant get lower" they might fall from the top 10 and their position is left blank until another clan wins a war? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me...

haha, never said you had to beat a top 10 clan to be in the top 10, only really want you to play some better clans before you get there. The best clan you have beat is in the late teens somewhere depending on what ranking you look at. There is still a divide between the top clans on cc and those slightly after, id at least like to see you play one of them and hold your own before you are ranked in the top 10 based on beating what for a top 10 clan would be easy competition.

My point here is that Top 10 is ever changing, but it normally is a fairly good representation of the best clans in CC and I do believe that in order to become the best, you do have to fight and challenge the best. PACK is definitely an up and coming clan who has great potential, but I do agree with ljex that until you beat one of the more established clans, I personally will not view you guys as a Top 10 Clan.

Forget about The PACK. Think... football maybe, only based on 2 years worth of data instead of just the current year. You don't win the top spot because you played 1 or 2 games, you get to the top by winning more games then the other teams.

Simply put spots and cc comparisons dont work. Sports have a higher degree of skill IMO and you are forced to play a season. In cc that is not the case and for most this is hobby not a living like in sports. Something has to give, either play less games and focus a lot of attention on each of them, or play more games but spend less time with each move...just because top clans choose the former does not mean they should be penalized. Beyond that there is no point to playing more wars, if a top 10 clan were to play 10 wars a year they would play the same clans in wars year after year or have to play less competitive wars.

I would even be fine with them being a top 10 clan if they lost to number 7-9 by a game or two or handily beat a 11-13 clan, but the fact that the best clan they have played is somewhere in the 15-20 range...doesnt convince me they deserve to be in the top 10. Its not like they are a new clan like TOFU was with established players from top clans starting a new clan, no they are players from average clans or no clan who came together to form a new clan. This is not to say they will never be a top 10 clan but that they dont deserve to be there now based on their current results

"deserve" has nothing to do with calculations of numbers. I'm sure everyone agrees The PACK isn't top 10 right now. Yes, we have done very well and hope to win more in the future. I'm not arguing about our position on the list, I'm arguing your perception of this list. You are looking at a numbers based list and trying to make it equal another list that is based on votes or a particular persons assessment of their value. Isn't going to happen unless the "Top 10" play, and win, as many wars as everyone else. If you want to discuss a particular clans placement on a "deserve" list, then you are in the wrong thread.

Im explaining why numbers based lists dont work and you were one of the examples. If you agree with my assessment that the pack is not a top 10 clan then why have you been arguing with up to this point. I never said this wasnt a good list, i simply said i see a lot of problems with it, far more than i see with Chucks list. Also to suggest that the top 10 clans are going to play that many wars a year just shows how little you know about what a top 10 clan goes through in preparation for a single clan war.

[grifftron]

When it comes down to it, some people always get sand in their vj when someone lays out a spread sheet and sees that their clan sucks the ding dong.

[grifftron]

well, for these list,PACK probably can not be in first 10, because he dont hae enough chalenges, but i dont go so back, and in mine ranking, related only to 2011 chalenges, PACK its so far with hes performance in no1 place. Its have all wins,and its look that have chance to score two more wins in Newcomers cup.
Last year TOFU, had great performance,and definitly will be in no1 place in mine ranking.
If Pack,continue with wins in all chalenges to end of year,he will be no1 clan for 2011 years.
These is like in european footbal,where team from league 2 ,who are promoted in league 1,can be champion like all other team in league 1.

and we have 7 challenges already... how many challenges do you need to get a mofo rank?

[tec805]

Im explaining why numbers based lists dont work

If numbers based list, in your opinion, don't work then why bother posting in a thread about that subject? If the bulk of CC agrees with your thoughts then this list, and any others like it will be ignored. Personally I rather enjoy seeing statistics, our win/loss ratio broken down in specific categories and so on. Here's an example of a numbers based list I'm talking about:

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

To be able to see how we are doing in comparison to the rest of the clans as far as win/loss and points position is a plus. Obviously we, the same as most, would like to be recognized as a top clan. If we do as well as we plan to then that will happen with or without this list. But I like hard numbers, statistics that can be checked. I also like how FarangDemon wrote it to decrease the value of clan wars by age otherwise the oldest clans would stay at the top even with very little activity.

You want the top clans to only play another top clan, very few wars, very little movement on the list. Correct? You want lower ranked clans to work their way up through the ranks, I understand this. But why are you so negative about someone else using the available information and presenting it in a fashion that doesn't suit your taste? How can having another way of looking at data be a bad thing? Naive and beyond help that I am, I don't see why this list bothers you. Didn't your mother ever tell you if you have nothing positive to say then say nothing at all?

If you don't like it just ignore it.

[Commander9]

When it comes down to it, some people always get sand in their vj when someone lays out a spread sheet and sees that their clan sucks the ding dong.

And whose clan would that be? Both FOED and Empire have fairly decent ratings in this rating and it was mainly me and ljex and tec arguing?

[ljex]

When it comes down to it, some people always get sand in their vj when someone lays out a spread sheet and sees that their clan sucks the ding dong.

And whose clan would that be? Both FOED and Empire have fairly decent ratings in this rating and it was mainly me and ljex and tec arguing?

whats funny is EMPIRE is ranked higher than I think we should be based on clan war results and we are still ranked hither than the pack...

[ljex]

Im explaining why numbers based lists dont work

If numbers based list, in your opinion, don't work then why bother posting in a thread about that subject? If the bulk of CC agrees with your thoughts then this list, and any others like it will be ignored. Personally I rather enjoy seeing statistics, our win/loss ratio broken down in specific categories and so on. Here's an example of a numbers based list I'm talking about:

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

To be able to see how we are doing in comparison to the rest of the clans as far as win/loss and points position is a plus. Obviously we, the same as most, would like to be recognized as a top clan. If we do as well as we plan to then that will happen with or without this list. But I like hard numbers, statistics that can be checked. I also like how FarangDemon wrote it to decrease the value of clan wars by age otherwise the oldest clans would stay at the top even with very little activity.

You want the top clans to only play another top clan, very few wars, very little movement on the list. Correct? You want lower ranked clans to work their way up through the ranks, I understand this. But why are you so negative about someone else using the available information and presenting it in a fashion that doesn't suit your taste? How can having another way of looking at data be a bad thing? Naive and beyond help that I am, I don't see why this list bothers you. Didn't your mother ever tell you if you have nothing positive to say then say nothing at all?

If you don't like it just ignore it.

If you dont like what im saying you can ignore it too...you do have that power and while i dont like number based systems for luck based games...i do think they have their place on this site. Also while some players like myself pay attention and know the problems of mathematical systems on CC, not all do so i fell i should point out where they fail to be accurate IMO. This may seem cocky or pretentious but quite frankly i dont care how it sounds as it is the truth.

Where did i ever say TOP clans should only play few wars only vs other top clans? I would rather EMPIRE play more clan wars...but then again i do very little to help prepare for wars and only play the games so it is very little extra work for me if we do play more challenges. Also I much prefer clan wars with lower ranked clans than with higher ranked clans. They are much more civil where everyone is playing to have fun instead of playing to win with lots of arguments. I actually think the pack has a good chance to become a top 10 clan based on their results, i just dont think they are there or deserve to be there yet. And yes even in mathematical systems you have to deserve the rank you get if a clan were to win every war they played but it was vs bad competition do you really think they should be #1 because they are undefeated?

[John Deere]

I would even be fine with them being a top 10 clan if they lost to number 7-9 by a game or two or handily beat a 11-13 clan, but the fact that the best clan they have played is somewhere in the 15-20 range...doesnt convince me they deserve to be in the top 10.

So where would you rank The Pack since we beat the 18th ( by another CC ranking system) by almost 2-1 games (39-21) ?

[ljex]

I would even be fine with them being a top 10 clan if they lost to number 7-9 by a game or two or handily beat a 11-13 clan, but the fact that the best clan they have played is somewhere in the 15-20 range...doesnt convince me they deserve to be in the top 10.

So where would you rank The Pack since we beat the 18th ( by another CC ranking system) by almost 2-1 games (39-21) ?

Not in the top 10, empire recently beat the clan three spots behind in the same ranking system us by a similar margin 30-11. Just goes to show you that large margins of defeat can happen.

I think i would rank pack in the 12-15 range based on current results

[Qwert]

""and we have 7 challenges already... how many challenges do you need to get a mofo rank""
mofo rank?? dont understand these.
I realy dont understand all these arguing, These is ranking related to all results,so PACK can not be in first 10,because he dont acumulated enough number of wining chalenges, dont forget TOFU had great wining number in 2010, but still some older clans had longest succesfull history in clan chalenges. PACK need to play few years(with high performance),to reach first 5 clans in these ranking.
But if you separate ranking ,year by year,then you will get much diferent picture.
If you compare any clan from top 10 with PACK, then all clans have acumulated better results then PAck, because Pack have only 5 finished chalenges. TOFU had 8-9 wins last years, and these is much better results then PACK.