Whodunnit? [19 Apr 2014] v10, p10 - Gameplay

[degaston]

My suggestions were not meant to try and make the map / game play better, but to give you some ideas to think about.

Thanks for the response, that was helpful. It's a little difficult to know what to do sometimes because the foundry guidelines say "All sound advice must be followed unless a logical rebuttal by the cartographer or another member of the community is provided." I can't say that these ideas are unsound, or that I have a logical rebuttal for them, but a lot of them seem to come down to a matter of personal preference. I will try to seriously consider them and see what I can work in to the next version.

The reason why more areas in the hallways - it would make it even harder to defend...

Did you mean to say "easier to defend" or "harder to attack"? That seems to be what you are describing. I'm not sure how much of a rampage someone can go on early in a game with 13 troops. If you're the first to cash, then that means that others are likely to be cashing soon after you and they may take back everything you just grabbed. I could always put 2's in the hallways to slow down an early expansion, but I'm not sure that this is really a problem... which is my problem. I would like to try out these different possibilities to see how one option plays compared to another. But changes like rearranging or adding rooms mean essentially doing the map over from scratch. Not that I can't do that, but I don't want to do it over and over again if I can help it. It seems pointless to continue to update the graphics on a map when I don't really know if I'm happy with the game-play. So I think that the only way I'm going to be satisfied with this is if I'm able to create a map testing program. I guess I'll work on that for a while and see what I can come up with. I'd still be happy to hear any comments in the mean-time.

[koontz1973]

My suggestions were not meant to try and make the map / game play better, but to give you some ideas to think about.

Thanks for the response, that was helpful. It's a little difficult to know what to do sometimes because the foundry guidelines say "All sound advice must be followed unless a logical rebuttal by the cartographer or another member of the community is provided." I can't say that these ideas are unsound, or that I have a logical rebuttal for them, but a lot of them seem to come down to a matter of personal preference. I will try to seriously consider them and see what I can work in to the next version.

The reason why more areas in the hallways - it would make it even harder to defend...

Did you mean to say "easier to defend" or "harder to attack"? That seems to be what you are describing. I'm not sure how much of a rampage someone can go on early in a game with 13 troops. If you're the first to cash, then that means that others are likely to be cashing soon after you and they may take back everything you just grabbed. I could always put 2's in the hallways to slow down an early expansion, but I'm not sure that this is really a problem... which is my problem. I would like to try out these different possibilities to see how one option plays compared to another. But changes like rearranging or adding rooms mean essentially doing the map over from scratch. Not that I can't do that, but I don't want to do it over and over again if I can help it. It seems pointless to continue to update the graphics on a map when I don't really know if I'm happy with the game-play. So I think that the only way I'm going to be satisfied with this is if I'm able to create a map testing program. I guess I'll work on that for a while and see what I can come up with. I'd still be happy to hear any comments in the mean-time.

Print the map out and play a few games with friends and family. This is a good way to test it with proper dice.

[koontz1973]

When I said harder to defend, it was badly worded. My point was that if anyone can run around the board that quickly, it cannot be good for play. Especially on a map of this size. Even with the smallest map (Doodle Earth) with a ten cash, all of the territs hold players troops or a 3 neutral. You cannot get from one side of the map to the other. Increasing the neutrals to 2 may slow this down but it also might slow down the game too much. A fine balance has to be struck and how much you are willing to compromise is up to you.

[degaston]

Print the map out and play a few games with friends and family. This is a good way to test it with proper dice.

I tried playing by myself like this, (I don't have a group of people interested in playing) but I didn't even finish one game. It was just too slow even with a dice rolling app, also I was running out of troops, having to share colors, etc. - it was not an ideal situation. Even if it takes more total time, I think I would rather try to make a program.

When I said harder to defend, it was badly worded. My point was that if anyone can run around the board that quickly, it cannot be good for play. Especially on a map of this size.

[citation required] What about maps like "Operation Drug War" or "City Mogul" (among others) that allow jumps all over the map? Not saying I want that kind of a free-for-all, but my feeling is that players will probably want to secure one room before they go attacking another. But with the structure as it is, they are not forced to go after their closest neighbor. They can choose to go after the strongest player, or the weakest, or whomever. I don't really see that as being a big problem, and I'm not sure what map size has to do with it.

Even with the smallest map (Doodle Earth) with a ten cash, all of the territs hold players troops or a 3 neutral. You cannot get from one side of the map to the other. Increasing the neutrals to 2 may slow this down but it also might slow down the game too much. A fine balance has to be struck and how much you are willing to compromise is up to you.

In Doodle Earth, if you're on Europe or Sarah Desert or Egypt, then you're either touching or only one territory away from every continent, so with a 10 cash, you can probably break any bonus. But like I said, I don't think I'm going to know the right balance point just from talking about it.

[MrBenn]

The reason why more areas in the hallways - it would make it even harder to defend...

Did you mean to say "easier to defend" or "harder to attack"? That seems to be what you are describing. I'm not sure how much of a rampage someone can go on early in a game with 13 troops. If you're the first to cash, then that means that others are likely to be cashing soon after you and they may take back everything you just grabbed. I could always put 2's in the hallways to slow down an early expansion, but I'm not sure that this is really a problem... which is my problem. I would like to try out these different possibilities to see how one option plays compared to another. But changes like rearranging or adding rooms mean essentially doing the map over from scratch. Not that I can't do that, but I don't want to do it over and over again if I can help it. It seems pointless to continue to update the graphics on a map when I don't really know if I'm happy with the game-play. So I think that the only way I'm going to be satisfied with this is if I'm able to create a map testing program. I guess I'll work on that for a while and see what I can come up with. I'd still be happy to hear any comments in the mean-time.

Which is why we recommend working out the gameplay before producing a polished map image... You've shown that you have a good eye for the graphical detail, so put that to one side for now, until the gameplay is sorted out. Instead of the fancy graphics, work on a slightly more basic schematic until the rest is sorted.

In other news:

[koontz1973]

Congrats on the draft stamp.

[carlpgoodrich]

And where else do you suggest I put the Motive?

You could always put the Motive in the legend next to where it says "-> THE MOTIVE". Other maps have used this strategy and it seems to work pretty well.

[AndyDufresne]

I like the idea of breaking up the 3-3-3 grid.




--Andy

[degaston]

Instead of the fancy graphics, work on a slightly more basic schematic until the rest is sorted.

That works for me.

Congrats on the draft stamp.

Thanks!

And where else do you suggest I put the Motive?

You could always put the Motive in the legend next to where it says "-> THE MOTIVE". Other maps have used this strategy and it seems to work pretty well.

I think it would be kind of out of place to stick it into the legend as it is right now. Plus, I have a strong preference for maps that I can play with the legend scrolled off the top of the screen. I rarely need it once I know the map well enough, but if it's at the bottom, or there are territories at the top, then I have to have the whole map on the screen or else scroll around.

I'll consider moving it to the police station side if I can.

I like the idea of breaking up the 3-3-3 grid.

I might get away from the regular 3x3 structure, but I really don't want to go to a traditional/realistic floor plan. The hallways are a pretty unique feature of this map and I'd like to see how they play. Plus, I think a traditional floor plan would be much too restrictive and would not allow the kind of open play I'm looking for.

[AndyDufresne]

I'm not suggesting a complete realistic or traditional floorplan, just something other than 3x3x3 since it kind of looks unappealing.


--Andy

[lostatlimbo]

I like where this map is going (despite the bickering above). Good look and fun idea, though a lot to take in at first. I finally got it after reading your description, but don't think its clear (yet) in the legend. I'm still not clear whether the fingers attack the actual suspects (i.e. Mr. Orange) or the room the suspect is in (i.e. the neutral 4 in that same room). Same with the weapons.

You might want to try a different graphic for the secret passages. They look very similar to the other spaces and don't stand out. Maybe a vertical doorway instead?

I disagree with others suggesting a non-Clue layout. I think it sticks to the feel of the game. But I do like your version with skinnier hallways. And perhaps the Motive doesn't need quite so much space.

Hope this one works out.

[degaston]

Thanks for the comments. As I responded to one member in PM, I haven't taken offense at anything that's been written, and I hope no one has been angry at my responses, so I don't think the "bickering" has been too bad (yet).

The pointing hands attack the suspects directly, just as the magnifying glasses attack the weapons directly. You have to take the rest of the room if you want a bonus. I may add a third territory in each suspect room to make them play a little different than the weapon rooms and to help justify the larger bonus structure. I'll try to make that more clear in the legend and the map if I can.

I agree that I could use something different for the secret passages. I tried "trap" doors in the floor, but I couldn't get it to look good. Any suggestions?

I started experimenting with some non-symmetrical layouts and some with more rooms, but without being able to test the game-play, I have no idea whether they would make it better or worse. It might be more visually appealing to some, but I'm afraid that it will make an already complicated map look even more confusing, even if the game-play stays the same. I can easily make the motive room smaller, but there have been suggestions to move the motive elsewhere and make that a playable room.

I've started working on a game tester, but it will be a while before I have anything useful. I'll continue to monitor the thread for suggestions, but without a tester, I'm kind of stuck right now.

[koontz1973]

I would leave the graphic for the trap door for now as it is. Make it a few pixels larger to stand out but I see no reason to change it. Remember, if numbers are going into the spaces, them you need to be able to read them.

[TaCktiX]

Certainly a good render of Clue, and lots of potential in it. However, the current instructions are a little confusing, even after figuring out the attack routes.

- Legend boxes are really small / understated and it's sometimes a hide-and-go-seek to find the icons that the legend matches.
- Do the one-way attacks hit the suspect/weapon directly, or the territory right before it?
- The "clues in the same room cannot be used to solve the case" is a little bit confusing. I know that means you can't give Mr. Pink, the Pickaxe, the Bedroom, and the Motive for a wild ride, but does that mean Mr. Pink and the Bedroom are incompatible as well? What all applies seems rather nebulous.

Also, when can we expect a post-Draft stamp version? You're almost at Recycle Bin inactivity-wise.

[degaston]

Certainly a good render of Clue, and lots of potential in it. However, the current instructions are a little confusing, even after figuring out the attack routes.

- Legend boxes are really small / understated and it's sometimes a hide-and-go-seek to find the icons that the legend matches.

Kind of like searching for clues at the scene of a crime? I'm not deliberately trying to make it confusing, but I was trying to add some character to the legend. I'll continue to work on making the legend and map more readable in future versions.

- Do the one-way attacks hit the suspect/weapon directly, or the territory right before it?

Right now, the plan is for the attacks to hit the "table" territory in each room, and the "floor" territory is needed to control the room and get the bonus. I'm considering adding a third territory to the suspect rooms, but I haven't decided yet. Any ideas for making this clearer?

- The "clues in the same room cannot be used to solve the case" is a little bit confusing. I know that means you can't give Mr. Pink, the Pickaxe, the Bedroom, and the Motive for a wild ride, but does that mean Mr. Pink and the Bedroom are incompatible as well? What all applies seems rather nebulous.

Correct, Mr. Pink will not form a valid combination with either the Bedroom or Garage. Originally I was going to allow any combination, but it was suggested that this made it too easy, and didn't require enough "exploring". There's a chart on page 2 of this thread showing the valid combinations, but I don't think it should be necessary to add that to the legend. You figured it out from the legend even if you weren't positive that you were correct. It follows a consistent pattern and playing the map once should be enough to make it clear. If you can think of a better way of phrasing it in the legend, I'd be happy to hear it.

Also, when can we expect a post-Draft stamp version? You're almost at Recycle Bin inactivity-wise.

Well, here's my problem - I could continue to make improvements to the look of the legend and map, but without being able to play it, I don't yet know if I'm happy with the gameplay. Do I need more (or fewer) territories in the rooms, hallways & police station? Are there too many or too few connections? Is the objective too easy or too difficult to achieve? Changes to any of these things would mean redoing a lot of map work.

I'm ready to try playing it as it is to work out the bugs before I spend any more time on graphics, but I have no way of doing it. (playing on paper is way too slow.) And how can anyone else make detailed gameplay comments without being able to try it out. I brought this up in another topic and though the idea seems popular, apparently no help on this will be coming from this site. So I've started working on a map testing program on my own. I don't have a lot of free time to work on it so it will probably take a while before I get something useable. Plus, I'm more of a windows developer than a web developer, so there's a learning curve to get through. If it gets moved to the recycle bin, then hopefully I can get it moved back out once I'm able to proceed.

[TaCktiX]

Suffice to say that I've played my fair share of games of all manner of gameplays (until the latest batch, I'd played every single one and won on nearly as many; less time nowadays). iancanton and MarshalNey are in similar situations. Though Murder 1 is definitely different, it's got some similarities we can take advantage of.

Like right now, I can tell you that the values for the separated territories (interrogations, evidence) are sky-high compared to the difficulty of holding them. Sure, it's a fair amount of neutrals, but to win the game EVERYONE is going to be hacking at those. With as few routes into an individual room, eventually someone will lock up all of evidence or interrogation, and have a massive bonus to more or less take Motive and whatever else needed to objective win, if not eliminate people from the crime scene (and the game).

Also, I would say consider having another way to get into the police station than suspects and weapons. Perhaps some squad cars set at the perimeter of the mansion that hit the main hallway between the interrogation room and the evidence room. The latter two are borderline bottlenecks, and considering their critical role in bonuses and the objective, are begging for imbalance.

[degaston]

Like right now, I can tell you that the values for the separated territories (interrogations, evidence) are sky-high compared to the difficulty of holding them. Sure, it's a fair amount of neutrals, but to win the game EVERYONE is going to be hacking at those. With as few routes into an individual room, eventually someone will lock up all of evidence or interrogation, and have a massive bonus to more or less take Motive and whatever else needed to objective win, if not eliminate people from the crime scene (and the game).

Although I don't really know how this map will play or what the best strategy will be, I think it will be extremely difficult to lock up all of the evidence or interrogation rooms unless you are already way ahead. As things are set up now, I think it will lead to a relatively slow and even development without anyone being able to take a big lead early on. Before anyone takes a suspect or weapon, I expect they'll want to feel pretty secure in the crime scene, and will need to have enough troops to defeat the neutrals and protect what they take. If anything, my concern is that the police station rooms may be so difficult to hold and the bonuses too small so that the game is played out only in the crime scene.

This is not like Das Schloss where you can control a huge bonus with just a couple of entrances. If you hold all of the interrogation rooms and their hallways, then there are 7 entry points you must defend against 13 possible attack routes. Your bonus gives only 3 troops per entry point. And any troops you put in the police station can never be moved back to the crime scene, (except through the motive at a rate of 5 per round) so you must worry about being eliminated from the game. Also, if you do hold the hallway, you lose 1 per round on that territory.

Also, I would say consider having another way to get into the police station than suspects and weapons. Perhaps some squad cars set at the perimeter of the mansion that hit the main hallway between the interrogation room and the evidence room. The latter two are borderline bottlenecks, and considering their critical role in bonuses and the objective, are begging for imbalance.

If I understand you correctly here, then I don't think I agree with this idea. The hallways in the police station are not technically necessary as you can get to all the rooms directly from the crime scene, so I don't think their role is all that critical. And the -1 decay on all hallway territories should discourage people from wanting to leave troops on them long term, so I doubt that they would be much of a bottleneck. And because I think there are already plenty (perhaps too many?) ways to get into the police station, I don't really think that any more are needed.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about all of this, but it's hard to know without being able to test it. Feel free to let me know if you think I misunderstood you, or if you disagree with my assessment. I do appreciate the detailed comments, and I'll keep them in mind once I'm able to test it out.

[Gillipig]

This map is sort of a mix between Madness and Operation drug war! I didn't understand it after a brief look. Would suggest you try to make it easier to understand. Otherwise great map and idea!

[degaston]

This map is sort of a mix between Madness and Operation drug war! I didn't understand it after a brief look. Would suggest you try to make it easier to understand. Otherwise great map and idea!

Could you give a bit more detail about what you did and did not understand? (The objective, the attacks, the bonuses, etc.)

Some maps need very little explanation. They have only linear, two-way attacks, a simple bonus structure, and nothing else in terms of "special rules". This is not one of those maps. It has many non-linear, one-way attacks, a couple of non-linear two-way attacks, a dead end with a decay and a bonus, two separate escalating bonus structures, a losing condition, and a winning objective that combines several different sets of territories, though not all combinations are valid. I wouldn't expect someone to understand it after just a brief look.

This will almost certainly not be a map that appeals to everyone. But there are plenty of maps for those who like something simple and straightforward, and relatively few for people who prefer more complicated gameplay. I haven't looked at every map in detail yet, but the more complicated maps almost always leave me with some unanswered questions that are only explained after playing a couple of games on them. I'll try to make the legend as clear as I can, but it's difficult to explain everything in a small space while trying to do it in a way that fits the theme of the map, so some effort may be required in order to understand it.

[Gillipig]

This map is sort of a mix between Madness and Operation drug war! I didn't understand it after a brief look. Would suggest you try to make it easier to understand. Otherwise great map and idea!

Could you give a bit more detail about what you did and did not understand? (The objective, the attacks, the bonuses, etc.)

Some maps need very little explanation. They have only linear, two-way attacks, a simple bonus structure, and nothing else in terms of "special rules". This is not one of those maps. It has many non-linear, one-way attacks, a couple of non-linear two-way attacks, a dead end with a decay and a bonus, two separate escalating bonus structures, a losing condition, and a winning objective that combines several different sets of territories, though not all combinations are valid. I wouldn't expect someone to understand it after just a brief look.

This will almost certainly not be a map that appeals to everyone. But there are plenty of maps for those who like something simple and straightforward, and relatively few for people who prefer more complicated gameplay. I haven't looked at every map in detail yet, but the more complicated maps almost always leave me with some unanswered questions that are only explained after playing a couple of games on them. I'll try to make the legend as clear as I can, but it's difficult to explain everything in a small space while trying to do it in a way that fits the theme of the map, so some effort may be required in order to understand it.

The win condition is easy to understand but the bonus system is not very obvious! I don't understand what I have to do to get a bonus!

[degaston]

The win condition is easy to understand but the bonus system is not very obvious! I don't understand what I have to do to get a bonus!

The bonuses are described in the "Backup Officers" section of the legend. (I was trying to stay with the theme, but I could change it back to "Bonuses" if it's not clear enough.) Does that clear things up, or were you not sure how to read the diagrams?

The "Crime Scene" section shows a map that indicates the bonus you get for controlling each of the 8 rooms in the crime scene.

The motive is a special case; It loses three troops on that territory each round, but gives you a bonus of 5 troops to deploy anywhere you want.

The bonus for the Evidence and Interrogation rooms are determined by how many of those rooms you hold. Hold one evidence room and you get a bonus of 1, hold 5 interrogation rooms for a bonus of 16, etc.

Let me know if you have any ideas for how to make it clearer.

[Gillipig]

The win condition is easy to understand but the bonus system is not very obvious! I don't understand what I have to do to get a bonus!

The bonuses are described in the "Backup Officers" section of the legend. (I was trying to stay with the theme, but I could change it back to "Bonuses" if it's not clear enough.) Does that clear things up, or were you not sure how to read the diagrams?

Would certainly be helpful since enough new things are being done in this map! A little familiarity wouldn't hurt the map!

The "Crime Scene" section shows a map that indicates the bonus you get for controlling each of the 8 rooms in the crime scene.

The motive is a special case; It loses three troops on that territory each round, but gives you a bonus of 5 troops to deploy anywhere you want.

May I suggest a clearer wording of the motive bonus. First I was like but I think that could be avoided if it says -3 autodeploy + 5 bonus. It takes a while to get that otherwise. (auto shouldn't be in bold)

The bonus for the Evidence and Interrogation rooms are determined by how many of those rooms you hold. Hold one evidence room and you get a bonus of 1, hold 5 interrogation rooms for a bonus of 16, etc.

Let me know if you have any ideas for how to make it clearer.

If you made the text "Crime scene" and "Conquer club police station" (or just Police station) on your map a little bigger an more prominent maybe it will be easier to understand that that's what they're called and we can draw the connection easier. Also the uppermost part of the map has got nothing to do with bonuses or other important things maybe you could make that text look less important ie (change color, size or font) and the text explaining bonuses look more important. It's still a mystery to me how police station and crime scene are connected!

[koontz1973]

May I suggest a clearer wording of the motive bonus. First I was like but I think that could be avoided if it says -3 autodeploy + 5 bonus. It takes a while to get that otherwise. (auto shouldn't be in bold)

It should read...
-3 Decay
+5 Bonus.

[degaston]

Would certainly be helpful since enough new things are being done in this map! A little familiarity wouldn't hurt the map!

I'll keep this in mind for the next update.

May I suggest a clearer wording of the motive bonus. First I was like but I think that could be avoided if it says -3 autodeploy + 5 bonus. It takes a while to get that otherwise. (auto shouldn't be in bold)

It used to say -3 Deploy, + 5 Bonus, then...

The motive: I think you want to say -3 decay, +5 bonus.

...so I assumed that Decay was the official term for a negative deploy.

If you made the text "Crime scene" and "Conquer club police station" (or just Police station) on your map a little bigger an more prominent maybe it will be easier to understand that that's what they're called and we can draw the connection easier. Also the uppermost part of the map has got nothing to do with bonuses or other important things maybe you could make that text look less important ie (change color, size or font) and the text explaining bonuses look more important.

I'll make some adjustments in the future - thanks for the suggestions.

It's still a mystery to me how police station and crime scene are connected!

If you're talking about going from the crime scene to the police station, each of the "false clue" (Pointing hands and magnifying glasses) territories one-way assaults a specific location in the police station.

If you're talking about going from the police station back to the crime scene... You DON'T! (Bwa ha ha!)

I had originally intended on adding an attack from the police station hallway back to the crime scene, but it wasn't in my first draft and someone said they liked it that way. From that came the losing condition of requiring a presence in the crime scene, and the combination deploy for the motive which could be used as a way to move troops back to the crime scene at a rate of 5 per round. I'm not aware of any other map that has this kind of setup, so I don't know if it will work well in practice... which is why I'm working on a way to test the gameplay now instead of making updates to the graphics. I'll go through all the comments here when I'm ready to do the next update.

[koontz1973]

...so I assumed that Decay was the official term for a negative deploy.

It is.