Continuation of Christianity debate.

[luns101]

So...assuming that no more skeptics are going to answer my two-part question, those were some good responses. I have to say that of all of them, I found unriggable's answers to get to the heart of the issue the best. Thanks for your responses.

[luns101]

Agree 100%. Religion is unnecessary.

Backglass, just because you don't believe that God exists, does not mean that you aren't religious. You hold to the faith of your non-belief in God just as rigorously as those who hold to their faith that God exists.

[MeDeFe]

My two-part question to the skeptics here is this:

If God does exist and it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt, then what are the ramifications of that to you personally?

If God does not exist and it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that life arose by random chance/natural processes, what are the ramifications of that to you personally?

For the first, hard to say, but I think I'd try to find out as much as I could about him/her/it. Not having to rely on old books of dubious value would make that much easier.

For the second, not much, I think humans are capable of living ethically without relying on supernatural beings, and personally I'm already trying to do that anyway.

[unriggable]

Agree 100%. Religion is unnecessary.

Backglass, just because you don't believe that God exists, does not mean that you aren't religious. You hold to the faith of your non-belief in God just as rigorously as those who hold to their faith that God exists.

In some ways it's true...I agree somewhat.

Any atheist who is hellbent (no pun intended) on the disproving of God, Richard Dawkins for example, is just as bad as any religious person bent on the unification of church and state.

[Backglass]

Agree 100%. Religion is unnecessary.

Backglass, just because you don't believe that God exists, does not mean that you aren't religious. You hold to the faith of your non-belief in God just as rigorously as those who hold to their faith that God exists.

I find it interesting that religious people have a very hard time understanding the concept of "no religion". I don't have one. Atheism isn't a religion. There isn't any church or bible...there are no meetings. We don't have rituals, or have special holidays. We don't pray, we don't congregate and "fellowship"...we don't pay dues or have pancake breakfasts.

It just means I don't believe in any gods/devils. Thats all. We checked "none" on the hospital form when our children were born.

Now, you can call that a religion if it helps you comprehend it, but that doesn't make it one. If you think that having a strong position and arguing against something makes it a religion than disliking/arguing against Hillary Clinton, Abortion or George Bush must make them religions as well. But they aren't.

[jnd94]

This thread needs some spam. its getting too serious. JOIN SPAMALOT!!!!

[unriggable]

BTW some food for thought for anybody who says evolution is bogus. To know this you have to know that to fend off a bear, you need to open your jacket to make yourself appear bigger.

Okay so dinosaurs have scales. Generally they were small, however a mutation gave one dinosaur longer scales. This posed a reasonable advantage, for two reasons. 1. It was lighter, relying on air for insulation rather than sheer number, and 2. By having longer scales, these dinosaurs made themselves look bigger when attacked, increasing the survival rate by fending off their predators. Over time these creatures became more common, and eventually it came to the point that the larger your scales were, the more menacing you appeared and the more likely you were to survive. Eventually these scales got lighter and lighter.

We all know that where there is a gap, it must be filled. One of the victims of the Cretaceous mass extinction was the pterodactyl. These beasts ruled the skies. Of course that all changed overnight. The skies were empty, and these 'dinosaurs' that were left alive eventually began to do what flying squirrels do today. They would glide from tree to tree. This came to the point where the lighter ones could remain in the air. Obviously, they could reproduce since they lived on much easier. This gene became very widespread.

What do we see today? Birds.

[luns101]

I find it interesting that religious people have a very hard time understanding the concept of "no religion". I don't have one. Atheism isn't a religion. There isn't any church or bible...there are no meetings. We don't have rituals, or have special holidays. We don't pray, we don't congregate and "fellowship"...we don't pay dues or have pancake breakfasts.

It just means I don't believe in any gods/devils. Thats all. We checked "none" on the hospital form when our children were born.

Now, you can call that a religion if it helps you comprehend it, but that doesn't make it one. If you think that having a strong position and arguing against something makes it a religion than disliking/arguing against Hillary Clinton, Abortion or George Bush must make them religions as well. But they aren't.

But yet you still go out of your way to preach your gospel of disbelief in God. It's not enough for you just "not believe"...you go beyond that and proactively try to discourage Christians/Theists who do believe. Atheists also proactively go out and try to eliminate the discussion of God in public institutions. That's proselytizing.

You may not personally attend an atheist church, but there are atheists who congregate together and have "services" with their own rituals. Yes, atheism is religious by nature. You have a fundamental set of beliefs by which you live your life and explain its purpose. It's definitely way different than mine, but it is a belief system nonetheless.

[Guiscard]

you go beyond that and proactively try to discourage Christians/Theists who do believe. Atheists also proactively go out and try to eliminate the discussion of God in public institutions. That's proselytizing.

You may not personally attend an atheist church, but there are atheists who congregate together and have "services" with their own rituals. Yes, atheism is religious by nature. You have a fundamental set of beliefs by which you live your life and explain its purpose. It's definitely way different than mine, but it is a belief system nonetheless.

Firstly, no Atheists do not actively seek to discourage religion. SOME may do but it is not an inherent part of being an atheist. The billions of atheists who don't obviously don't grab your attention because... well... because they're not doing anything! I know it might seem like there's a huge atheistic conspiracy against religious values but that's simply not true. There are no 'teachings' or 'commandments' and by generalising about atheism in such a way you're simply repeating your misdirected belief that its a religion. Some atheists seek to argue against religion for various reasons, but that is no different to arguing against slavery, or genocide or whatever you fancy really. It isn't because atheism tells you to argue, it is just that you see it as wrong and may want to stop it.

There is no fundamental system of beliefs or values. Its not religious by nature. Atheism does not prescribe ANY action! It is simply a lack of belief in religion. The world isn't black and white like that - religion vs atheism - and it seems slightly naiive to think it so.

[Anarchy Ninja]

i no i have never had aethiest come around my door telling about their beliefs/disbeliefs.

but why argue about the exsitence of a christian god if thats what people need to stay motivated and be good to each other then let them have it, they should not force it on othre people ie in schools etc just as it should not be forced to not believe in one.

im one of those crazy buddhist who believe in love in peace and this works for me and im sure without relegion many people would be a lot worse then they are or give up on life all together. you just have to remember that the basis for nearly of them is to love your fellow man.

[Guiscard]

i no i have never had aethiest come around my door telling about their beliefs/disbeliefs.

but why argue about the exsitence of a christian god if thats what people need to stay motivated and be good to each other then let them have it, they should not force it on othre people ie in schools etc just as it should not be forced to not believe in one.

im one of those crazy buddhist who believe in love in peace and this works for me and im sure without relegion many people would be a lot worse then they are or give up on life all together. you just have to remember that the basis for nearly of them is to love your fellow man.

I think the basic problem is that religious people see the elimination of religion in our culture as an 'attack of the atheists'. What it really is is a decline of religion. If 'militant atheists' disappeared today we'd still not have mandatory prayers and suchlike because religion on such a scale is simply not needed. Nobody is forcing anyone to not believe in God. I can find you laws saying you must be religious but can you find me laws saying you can't? I have no problem with people having as faith, I just don't like it when they try and qualify it through argument, fact and reasoning when a 'belief' is just that - a belief without a factual basis. Thats my personal opinion, and its to do with my character not do do with the fact I am an atheist. I feel just the same way about any 'belief' which people try to wrongly qualify through 'fact', be it in politics, history, philosophy or whatever.

[Anarchy Ninja]

this a great news parody http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28151
"God angrily clarifies 'don't kill' rule"

and i agree with you completly, that is just a belief. i dont like it when people get worked up about those beliefs cause you dont believe them. its all like "hey you dont believe in my imagenary friend i dont like you any more, except in history it got more violent"

im not sure if my posts make sense cause im reasobly tired but i no they all roghly say it doesnt matter if you believe or not just be a good person

[luns101]

Firstly, no Atheists do not actively seek to discourage religion.

Oh please! They certainly do, with the exception of their own.

There are no 'teachings' or 'commandments

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/ten_ ... ments.html
http://debate.atheist.net/showthread.php?t=44

Some atheists seek to argue against religion for various reasons, but that is no different to arguing against slavery, or genocide or whatever you fancy really.

WHOA! No different than arguing against slavery or genocide. Now that is an outlandish statement which I totally resent. With statements like that, no wonder there are so many misconceptions about what Christians believe.

There is no fundamental system of beliefs or values. Its not religious by nature. Atheism does not prescribe ANY action!

http://atheistactioncentral.blogspot.com/

It is simply a lack of belief in religion.

No, it's not. It's a belief that God doesn't exist. If you don't believe me then believe backglass who wrote:

If it could be proven that gods DON'T exist beyond a shadow of a doubt, nothing would change for me personally as I already believe that now. Not to mention the fact we would have dramatically less wars, killings and pompous web postings.

[unriggable]

Luns, only a few people preach that way. Most atheists just don't do religion. I've been atheist my entire life, it's not like I quit a curch and looked for a replacement. Those are unitarians.

[luns101]

Luns, only a few people preach that way. Most atheists just don't do religion. I've been atheist my entire life, it's not like I quit a curch and looked for a replacement. Those are unitarians.

While that may be true for you...most of the atheists here do preach their own beliefs. I've seen many examples of whenever the Christians here start threads to discuss matters that they all hold in common, the skeptics/atheists go there and start calling our beliefs: lies, fabrications, distortions, etc. etc. They are not just simply disagreeing but seeking to discourage.

Unriggable, if Christianity or Theism is such a farce, then why do they go there and constantly harass them and offer up why they believe differently. That's preaching!

Nobody here is forcing them to believe in God. If they want to believe that the purpose of their lives are different, by all means...go ahead. I doubt they could control their impulses to discourage Christians with their witty cliches.

[unriggable]

Luns, only a few people preach that way. Most atheists just don't do religion. I've been atheist my entire life, it's not like I quit a curch and looked for a replacement. Those are unitarians.

While that may be true for you...most of the atheists here do preach their own beliefs. I've seen many examples of whenever the Christians here start threads to discuss matters that they all hold in common, the skeptics/atheists go there and start calling our beliefs: lies, fabrications, distortions, etc. etc. They are not just simply disagreeing but seeking to discourage.

Unriggable, if Christianity or Theism is such a farce, then why do they go there and constantly harass them and offer up why they believe differently. That's preaching!

Nobody here is forcing them to believe in God. If they want to believe that the purpose of their lives are different, by all means...go ahead. I doubt they could control their impulses to discourage Christians with their witty cliches.

Okay the only person really preaching here is Jesse bad boy (for atheism), but to me outright denial of science is just as bad. Jay, nunz etc just flatout refuse to accept evolution. I mean, there are mountains of evidence, and while the details aren't perfect, the people studying evolution to that detail most likely aren't skeptical of it's existence and are willing to refraim the structure to make it all orderly.

I am stating my reasons for why nunz is wrong. That's why I post. I don't think I have said anything about why a god can't exist, I've only bashed specific gods who are believed by some to be that precise.

Where in the bible does it say that the creatures and animals where created as they are today?

[Guiscard]

While that may be true for you...most of the atheists here do preach their own beliefs. I've seen many examples of whenever the Christians here start threads to discuss matters that they all hold in common, the skeptics/atheists go there and start calling our beliefs: lies, fabrications, distortions, etc. etc. They are not just simply disagreeing but seeking to discourage.

Unriggable, if Christianity or Theism is such a farce, then why do they go there and constantly harass them and offer up why they believe differently. That's preaching!

Nobody here is forcing them to believe in God. If they want to believe that the purpose of their lives are different, by all means...go ahead. I doubt they could control their impulses to discourage Christians with their witty cliches.

Of course there are sites and individuals who seek to prescribe some sort of code for atheists, and there are certainly some groups, but unlike religion the vast vast majority completely ignore this. These groups are in no way official, and don't claim that they are the only 'true' athiests'. They aren't saying if you don't follow our commandments you aren't an atheist. Indeed, the vast vast majority of atheists will never come to your attention because they simply don't feel they want to argue with your beliefs. The problem with your argument is that you seem to be judging all atheists worldwide on the actions of a minority on this site (myself included, I'm sure). Just because we're argumentative doesn't mean it is because atheism tells us to be. I also argue just as vehemently with those who deny global warming or those who think black people are inferior, but that doesn't mean believing in global warming is a religion or believing in equality is a religion does it? I believe all those things can be scientifically and logically proven, just as atheism can. If atheism is a religion then so is just about everything I've ever argued for in the fields of philosophy, politics, history, art etc. etc.

Billions and billions of people all over the world carry on their every day lives without believing in God, and they are atheists just as much as I am. They don't actively seek out Christians to harass or tear down Mosques. Atheism has no rules.

[Backglass]

While that may be true for you...most of the atheists here do preach their own beliefs. I've seen many examples of whenever the Christians here start threads to discuss matters that they all hold in common, the skeptics/atheists go there and start calling our beliefs: lies, fabrications, distortions, etc. etc. They are not just simply disagreeing but seeking to discourage.

Well sure! When the bible-thumpers insist on starting thread after thread about your beliefs on public forums, I feel compelled to respond. If you were to stop with the creation of uber-religious threads...the atheists would stop. End of story.

Unriggable, if Christianity or Theism is such a farce, then why do they go there and constantly harass them and offer up why they believe differently. That's preaching!

I LOVE how you must place your christian labels on atheists. "Preach". "Gospel". "Services". "Prosletizing" (sp?). So...if an atheist speaks out, he is preaching?

Nobody here is forcing them to believe in God. If they want to believe that the purpose of their lives are different, by all means...go ahead.

Then STOP with the continuous stream of religions threads! (BTW, There is no "purpose" in life...thats the human mind trying to comprehend finality. We live...we die. Thats all.)

I doubt they could control their impulses to discourage Christians with their witty cliches.

Just as I doubt you can control your urges to start new religious threads in an attempt to convert others.

Although I have never met any I am sure there are organized atheists, just as there are organized bowlers & quilters. But when they DO get together, they are not praying or worshiping. They are most likely discussing how organized religion is attempting to take over PUBLIC institutions and PUBLIC government and that the only way to prevent such awful things is to organize themselves.

As for your links...Shall I find a few religious-wacko web quotes to "prove" that ALL christians are cultists? christians don't have a lock on fanatics ya know...we have them too.

[luns101]

Guiscard, people here of your atheist/skeptic persuasion are always asking me to back things up with either web site links, quotes, or facts. So what happens when I do that...they are conveniently explained away because they don't agree with the worldview espoused by atheists. When I see others of my Christian/theist persuasion also post their beliefs, they are just automatically dismissed.

What I see is an atheist arrogance toward those like myself who are Christians (some aren't Christians they just believe in God). In other words, anything we say or put forth as evidence for our faith is automatically false. There is no real serious consideration of the case for Christ being true because it flies in the face of everything an atheist believes. That's a very convenient "starting-point" for the atheist position. The atheist position here is set up as being a "thinking and rationale" belief, while the Christians here are just barely tolerated as ignorant twits with magical beliefs. I reject that premise.

I do believe that you set out to live a good, ethical life. The problem is that your belief system will lead you down a path that is contrary to your intentions. I've read many of your posts from other threads here. You say things like:

Shut up and get out this thread you idiot. Christianity had the bloodiest past of any religion, and still today people wage war in the name of the Christian God and protecting all that is 'right'. Does that mean that all good Christians are deluded and don't know what they believe??? There's already a thread for ignorant islamaphobic flamers, go post in there.

or:

Some atheists seek to argue against religion for various reasons, but that is no different to arguing against slavery, or genocide or whatever you fancy really. It isn't because atheism tells you to argue, it is just that you see it as wrong and may want to stop it.

Do you have any idea how offensive that last assertion is...to equate the arguing against religion (which I think you really meant as Christianity) as arguing against slavery & genocide?!! Would you like me to give you some examples of Christians who fought against those very evil practices?

Whenever I've brought this to your attention, you seem to go back to a more civilized discourse and take back your previous remarks. What if I had never said anything or stood up for the Christian side? Would you just have kept on going with demonizing us? That's why I feel it is important to take a stand against the atheist worldview...it leads people down a path that they never intended to go down in the first place: a critical & judgmental spirit that justifies misconceptions.

I want to ask you a question in all seriousness: Who was Jesus Christ and how much do you know about him?

[luns101]

Well sure! When the bible-thumpers insist on starting thread after thread about your beliefs on public forums, I feel compelled to respond. If you were to stop with the creation of uber-religious threads...the atheists would stop. End of story.

Oh come on, backglass! We have every right to express our opinions just like you do. This is sounding like your "you have the right to leave the public schol system" argument. Christians as well as atheists pay taxes that support the public school system and we have just as much right as you do to have our voices heard. It's the same as here, we Christians play our RISK games to the best of our ability, as do you. We pay our premium membership, as do you. So we have just as much right to discuss our opinions as you do. You're just trying to silence any opposition to your worldview with no discourse.

The atheists/skeptics here start anti-Christian/anti-God threads more than we start pro-Christian or pro-God threads. Here are just a few examples:

"Forcing religion down your throat!"
"Why all religions are fake"
"Anal sex is ok with God"
"A Challenge to Theists"
"Ok guys serious need to stop this religion sh*t"
"Why I disagree with the Christian God"
"Post here if you don't buy into the Jesus Myth"

Don't tell me that the Christians here are "over-running" the threads. I saw many others which were just as hostile. What's wrong with a few Christians starting a discussion about what they believe. You're free to look or not look...nobody's forcing anything down your throat.

I LOVE how you must place your christian labels on atheists. "Preach". "Gospel". "Services". "Prosletizing" (sp?). So...if an atheist speaks out, he is preaching?

Yep, if your definition of preaching is someone who is simply putting forth their worldview or beliefs...absolutely.

Then STOP with the continuous stream of religions threads!

Seriously, check out the ratio of anti-God threads to pro-God threads. Continuous?...not hardly.

Just as I doubt you can control your urges to start new religious threads in an attempt to convert others.

I doubt a thread supporting either position would have the effect of "converting" someone else. If there were such attempts, the most effective way to kill it would be to ignore it.

As for your links...Shall I find a few religious-wacko web quotes to "prove" that ALL christians are cultists? christians don't have a lock on fanatics ya know...we have them too.

Sure...but just a few?!! My faith is based on Jesus Christ, not Jimmy Swaggart or some other nut-job. I agree that no belief system has a lock on fanaticism. You and I would probably actually have a good time laughing at some of these people while having a few beers.

[MeDeFe]

Oh come on, backglass! We have every right to express our opinions just like you do. This is sounding like your "you have the right to leave the public schol system" argument. Christians as well as atheists pay taxes that support the public school system and we have just as much right as you do to have our voices heard. It's the same as here, we Christians play our RISK games to the best of our ability, as do you. We pay our premium membership, as do you. So we have just as much right to discuss our opinions as you do. You're just trying to silence any opposition to your worldview with no discourse.

Except that there aren't any classes on atheism, are there? And no, biology, mathematics and other sciences do not count. The fact that they don't mention god is not enough to make them atheistic.

And if both groups have the right to discuss their opinions, don't complain when they do. There would be far more reason to complain if they didn't imo.


And on a side note, the "Forcing religion"-thread was started by a christian afaik. A sense of humour is something good, isn't it?

[Backglass]

Oh come on, backglass! We have every right to express our opinions just like you do.

Of course you do. But then you complain (loudly) when someone comes back with an equal amount of conviction.

Christians as well as atheists pay taxes that support the public school system and we have just as much right as you do to have our voices heard.

And the satanists? Do they have a right to have their theology taught in public school as well? Wow, I could see the protests now.

You're just trying to silence any opposition to your worldview with no discourse.

"Paranoia, will destroya". I am not trying to silence anyone. I am just saying if you don't want to hear a opinionated opposing view, don't start opinionated threads! You guys say "why cant you just leave us alone to worship what we want", and then make comments about how we will all burn in hell because we aren't on your team.

The atheists/skeptics here start anti-Christian/anti-God threads more than we start pro-Christian or pro-God threads. Here are just a few examples:

"Forcing religion down your throat!"
"Why all religions are fake"
"Anal sex is ok with God"
"A Challenge to Theists"
"Ok guys serious need to stop this religion sh*t"
"Why I disagree with the Christian God"
"Post here if you don't buy into the Jesus Myth"

Well, more than a few of those are known trolls just trying to stir up shit.

Don't tell me that the Christians here are "over-running" the threads.

OK...I wont tell you.

What's wrong with a few Christians starting a discussion about what they believe. You're free to look or not look...nobody's forcing anything down your throat.

But if you insist on making your private discussions public, don't get all offended when someone questions your beliefs or gives an opposing view.

You and I would probably actually have a good time laughing at some of these people while having a few beers.

No doubt! Cheers!

[Guiscard]

OK. For the last time, Luns, you cannot equate the arguments posed by members of this site, including me, with atheism as a whole. You've yet to respond to the assertion made by me several times that there are billions of atheists around the world who don't care what you believe and won't argue with you at all!!!

I like to have a good argument about everything, be it religion, philosophy or politics. Just because members of this site argue strongly against religion (and I mean all religion, NOT just Christianity), doesn't mean this is BECAUSE they are atheists. It is BECAUSE they are ARGUMENTATIVE!

What I mean by mentioning slavery and genocide is that I don't think either are a good thing, just as I don't think religion is. That's my personal views not the beliefs of some prescriptive religion called 'atheism'.

[luns101]

Except that there aren't any classes on atheism, are there? And no, biology, mathematics and other sciences do not count. The fact that they don't mention god is not enough to make them atheistic.

I don't see how you can say that. Biology and other life sciences as currently taught from the evolutionist viewpoint inherently discount the existence of God and instead replace it with "natural causes" or "random chance". If that's not the backbone for atheism, then what is? I can't remember which skeptic it was here on the site, but somebody told me it was "nearly" impossible to be an atheist before Charles Darwin came along.

And if both groups have the right to discuss their opinions, don't complain when they do. There would be far more reason to complain if they didn't imo.

Nobody's complaining about expressing their opinions, especially in this thread. However, common respect would say that if I want to talk to fellow Christians about something important to us, the atheists should just stay out. Also, if the atheists want to have a thread for themselves and discuss things important to them, Christians should stay out. This is one of the things I talked about in the "General Discussion" Forum. Check out the "Sanctification" and "Fish Club" threads to see what I'm talking about. CrazyAnglican started it in order to discuss things between Christians. Even some of the atheists started getting mad at other atheists because they just couldn't allow us to have a discussion between ourselves.

And on a side note, the "Forcing religion"-thread was started by a christian afaik. A sense of humour is something good, isn't it?

Alright, after reading the posts there I didn't find it funny, but to each their own. I guess if I used pictures of something that you found sacred and used it as humor your opinion might change a little.

My sense of humor is just fine. Check out my feedback...people enjoy playing either with or against me. I've never started a Christian thread here because I actually enjoy the more fun topics like "Who's the best TV dad" or "Which group has done the most to destroy civilization". You can also check out some of my posts making fun of my love for the Chicago Cubs despite their tragic losses.

[luns101]

OK. For the last time, Luns, you cannot equate the arguments posed by members of this site, including me, with atheism as a whole. You've yet to respond to the assertion made by me several times that there are billions of atheists around the world who don't care what you believe and won't argue with you at all!!!

OK then, what source are you quoting from that proves there are billions of atheists around the world? Since everyone always wants me to document my beliefs I should be able to ask the same of you. The last estimate I saw said there were roughly 6.5 billion people on the earth total and I would think the majority of them are either Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish (Judaism), or another major religion.

I like to have a good argument about everything, be it religion, philosophy or politics. Just because members of this site argue strongly against religion (and I mean all religion, NOT just Christianity), doesn't mean this is BECAUSE they are atheists. It is BECAUSE they are ARGUMENTATIVE!

I rarely see posts against Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, or Buddhism. It is almost always directed against Christians. I've hardly ever seen skeptics here point out the good things about Christianity, only bad things. Would you be willing to admit that true Christians desire to help the poor, the needy, the addicted, the elderly, and those who are hurting? What I see is an attempt by skeptics here to redefine Christianity as a religion that seeks to start wars, syphon $$, and forcing conversions on people who don't want to be converted.

However, your point is well taken: the entire atheist community cannot be held accountable for the actions/posts by members of this site.

What I mean by mentioning slavery and genocide is that I don't think either are a good thing, just as I don't think religion is. That's my personal views not the beliefs of some prescriptive religion called 'atheism'.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. I still take offense that you would see my beliefs in the same light as those who practice evil. I think Christians such as William Wilberforce, John Newton, William Lloyd Garrison, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Diedrich Bonhoeffer show that we Christians have had positive influences on social change. They all quoted from the Bible in order to show how truly evil those practices are. My fear is that Christians rarely get recognized for that, but instead over time, get labeled as supporters of the very heinous ideologies that we have historically stood against. As an example of this, I've had a Jewish co-worker tell me that Christians were responsible for the Holocaust.