Salem's Switch V36 [Quenched]

[Nola_Lifer]

I know this suggestion may complicate things but can you use other impassable than fences. So far the fences look good but it will be a bit boring to have all fences. What about some trees or etc.?

[ender516]

Fences can also be made of wood or fieldstones, and you could use brambles as well, so there can be many visual styles of impassables.

[natty dread]

Why does there need to be multiple types of impassables? There's already the body of water there (bay? lake?) so why make the map needlessly more complicated?

[ender516]

Why does every map seem to need grunge, or fold marks, or to be rotated? In my opinion, they don't, but there is always much whining if a map uses clean solid colours and and rectilinear shapes.

As far as multiple impassables goes, I was thinking in terms of making the map more visually interesting, but it may just result in clutter at this scale.

[Seamus76]

For me, the fence works, especially the sideways view where you can really see it. If there were a way to make the northern most vertical fence slanted a little more to the left (like the one below it), to show more of the detail that might be nice. Maybe rotate B8 a little to the right, then move the base of the fence to the right. I don't think you need more types of impassables, but for my eye, I would like to see at least one or two more fences on the left side of the map as well. Right now they just look a little out of place. Forgive me if that was the future intent.

[Nola_Lifer]

Why does there need to be multiple types of impassables? There's already the body of water there (bay? lake?) so why make the map needlessly more complicated?

It was a suggestion and in my suggestion I also conceded the point it may make thing complicated. No where was it said it was needed.

[cairnswk]

Lively discussion, that's good.
I've been checking out some references to fences in Sales at that time, and there is eveidence that the old meeting house was surrounded by a fence, but that also large parts of other boundaries were indeed thickett. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17845/17 ... 1-htm.html

This was also a laugh http://www.theawl.com/2011/06/the-real- ... tch-trials

[natty dread]

Why does every map seem to need grunge, or fold marks, or to be rotated?

There's no actual grunge on most CC maps. There are maps with textures, but that's a bit different.
As for fold marks, there are less than 5 maps on CC (including maps that aren't live yet) that use them.
And rotation? Most maps have no rotation at all.

In my opinion, they don't, but there is always much whining if a map uses clean solid colours and and rectilinear shapes.

Using clean, solid colours may work if it's the intended style of the map. If it's done due to limitations of the mapmaker's skills, it usually shows and the problem with that is, it often makes the map look too sterile and plastic. Adding some texture is an easy way to bring the map to life. On another hand, if the whole map mimics one that is drawn on paper, having a consistent paper texture on the whole map image may be appropriate. And so on... stylistic choices should be made according to the needs of the particular map, not according to the limitations of the mapmaker's skill.

As for rectangular shapes, it's pretty much the same thing... a stylistic choice. If it fits the map, fine.

As far as multiple impassables goes, I was thinking in terms of making the map more visually interesting, but it may just result in clutter at this scale.

There's plenty of potential in this map to make it visually interesting... however, clutter is something that should be avoided, and the gameplay is not from the simplest end (unsurprisingly, this being a cairns map) so anything that can result in more confusion for the player should be avoided, if a simpler way can be used.

[cairnswk]

... the gameplay is not from the simplest end (unsurprisingly, this being a cairns map)...

Me create a complicated map...never !

so anything that can result in more confusion for the player should be avoided, if a simpler way can be used.

Yes, things need to be simple on this map.

[cairnswk]

Here is Version 14.

1. Mainly to do with the fences. Fencing in those days was made mainly from Palisidoes which were cut in half for both uprights and beams, so that is what i have constructed, except around the Old Meeting House.
2. I have also included an option to replace some of the fences with thickett, which has not yet been drawn.
3. First look at a large version

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

Damn, I think there's been a mix-up with the dimensions... So now the small is 780 x 600, and the large is 1093 x 840... and it looks a bit unnecessarily large. (although it is nice to see the map in good detail - one of the good sides in vector graphics...)

Hm, when I said that the large could be 840 I was talking about width... back then you had the small image narrower, at 730 x 600, so I was suggesting to make the large 840 x 690... I should have been clearer back then, my bad.

So I guess, now, since you have the small image at 780 x 600, the large one could be something around 910 x 700, which I think would be sufficient for it... sorry if this means lots of extra work for you.

[cairnswk]

...
So I guess, now, since you have the small image at 780 x 600, the large one could be something around 910 x 700, which I think would be sufficient for it... sorry if this means lots of extra work for you.

Actually it doesn't mean a lot at this stage, because the large is only a select all + change dimensions to size me up scotty to the larger dimension.

So you want 780 x 600 and i'll meet you halfway at 975 x 750 for the large, only so some of that detail can show and the large still doesn't seem so squashy

[cairnswk]

So next question, are the fences adequate?

[ender516]

I haven't studied the positioning of the fences yet, but I love their look.

[cairnswk]

... but I love their look.

Thanks ender516...i'll probably look at them again later in graphics as some are higher than others etc.
But for now they show the impassables that i was meaning to convey.
Next, i'll try to add some trees/thickett as impasables...possibly replace one or two fences with it.

[thenobodies80]

[cairnswk]

Version 15.

• As you can see there are now the additions of fences and thickett/trees, although the later is not yet complete.
  This may or may not work depending on opinion.
• I have also added that other buggy stop (contrary to previous post) at B10. I've added this because it makes all territories now only two or three territories away from a buggy stop, and this is an important aspect the the gameplay in order to be able to access the neighbours where impassables don't permit.
• There is also an icon on the Town Meeting Hall in the township area, but that is covered by the large tree, and i''ll address that shortly.
• There is also two white font treatments appeared since last version.
  - George Jacobs Sn and most of map - Quorum Blk BT with drop shadow
  - around Eliza Putnam - Quorum Blk Bt with black backing (similar to backing style used on Buggy Stops and Road Travel in legend)
  I like some indication of which of these styles is preferable is possible please.

Version 15

Click image to enlarge.

[Victor Sullivan]

Thy Gameplay!

• I think the "Witch-Hill, Prison, Judges & any Person Hung: +4" should be "Witch Hill, Prison, any Judge & any Person Hanged: +4"
• I think the "Reverend + 6 landowners" bonus should be lowered, given the Landowners bonus and the Gossip bonus. Perhaps something like 3 or 4. Otherwise, one could theoretically hold one reverend, one town meeting hall and 7 landowners for +9, which seems a bit much IMO.

Click image to enlarge.

• I definitely prefer George Jacobs over Eliza Putnam text-wise. I did notice there were others (like Bridgette Bishop, Daniel Rae, Sarah Cloyce, etc.) that are just flat white.
• "Persons Hung" should be "Persons Hanged", the correct past tense for hang in the context of a way of execution.
• The fencing isn't too terribly visible, especially the fence between Abagail Williams and Nathaniel Ingersoli.
• Are the reverends included in the "Landowners" bonus? If not, they should have a color of they're own. In fact, either way I think they should have their own color to make them more distinguishable, like you had before.
• There appears to be some inconsistencies in the thickness of some lines, like John Proctor's eastern border, Creasey's northern border, George Jacobs Sn.'s southwestern border, a small bit in the northeast corner of J. Raymont, and the blue river in the East.
• Why is the river blue while the other water is of a greenish color?
• The inset in the bottom-right doesn't have that shallow water effect around the edges of the water like the rest of the map (aside from the blue river).
• There's an itty-bitty piece of grey in the southeast corner of Judge Hathorne.
• Not totally digging the thicket (one "t", by the way), as it just looks like a clump of browns. It's hard to make out what it is, really.

-Rev. Sully

[cairnswk]

Thanks for commenting there Sully. I'll fix all those next version soon.

I will also place the start positions (remember there are only 8 - 3 accused and 5 accusers) in order to get the gossip going on next version.

[cairnswk]

[*]Not totally digging the thicket (one "t", by the way), as it just looks like a clump of browns. It's hard to make out what it is, really.[/list]
-Rev. Sully

Sully, having said that i'll try to improve it...isn't thicket really just a dense clump of undergrowth/trees marking impenitrability.
yes it looks like a clump of browns, but then that's probably what it looks like from the air anyways.
And my next question is...do you really need ot make out what it is if its a dense clump of browns designed to designate an impassable?

[TaCktiX]

I really like the new fences, and the trees are a good addition to the darkness of the map (gogo autumn colors!). I do agree that the thickets don't work though. I can't put my finger exactly on what's wrong with them, they just don't look right.

[Nola_Lifer]

Only thicket I don't like is the one between Putnam and Sarah Cloyce. It just seems odd. The others look good though!

[cairnswk]

I really like the new fences, and the trees are a good addition to the darkness of the map (gogo autumn colors!). I do agree that the thickets don't work though. I can't put my finger exactly on what's wrong with them, they just don't look right.

Only thicket I don't like is the one between Putnam and Sarah Cloyce. It just seems odd. The others look good though!

Uh uh, thanks guys for those coments.
I am working on producing better looking thicket/trees and adjusting the fences.

FOR NOW THOUGH....does the gameplay work?
Apart from Sully, can we get some advice on that please.

[MarshalNey]

There seem to be a lot of 'isolated' regions that can only break out or be attacked by going through a buggy killer neutral, which could have consequences for escalating games for instance, but really I don't consider that a big deal... it could even be rather interesting.

As for the bonus values... while I agree with Sully's suggestions, particularly with the Witch Hill + Prison + .... bonus, I also think that it is not necessary to focus too much on balancing all of the bonuses against each other. Balance among all gameplay elements is more friendly to beginning players, but really I never considered these kinds of maps to be geared toward that sort of audience- it's a complex, deep strategy map meant to appeal to ambitious or veteran players. I'm not sure it's necessary to tweak all of the bonuses so that they provide comparable benefit for their cost. The map's scheme follows the classic cairnswk 'layer' system where a single region or group of regions can apply to multiple bonuses. Thus, some bonuses could be considered 'kicker'/'support'/'secondary'-type bonuses that would only be pursued as the cherry on the sundae, so to speak, rather than as a core bonus to build a power base. Obviously gross differences in cost vs. benefit among the bonuses could be a problem, but I'm not seeing that here.

That said, the Witch Hill + Prison + Judges + any Hanged bonus should be easier to accomplish than it is, not to balance it against other bonuses so much as to make it more attractive. Witch Hill and the Prison should have more of a spotlight in the gameplay of the map! Thus, my feeling is that the bonus should be strengthened for thematic purposes. Right now, Witch Hill and the Prison are kind of a distant 'secondary' bonus and will probably be ignored in most (not all) games.

I may need to look at the map again with fresh eyes in a day or two, but right now I think it's overall stamp-worthy.

-- Marhsal Ney

[cairnswk]

thanks for taking the time to comment on gameplay MarshelNey

There seem to be a lot of 'isolated' regions that can only break out or be attacked by going through a buggy killer neutral, which could have consequences for escalating games for instance, but really I don't consider that a big deal... it could even be rather interesting.

Yes, i think this makes gameplay quite different from other maps out there, and indeed it will be challenging.

As for the bonus values... while I agree with Sully's suggestions, particularly with the Witch Hill + Prison + .... bonus, I also think that it is not necessary to focus too much on balancing all of the bonuses against each other. Balance among all gameplay elements is more friendly to beginning players, but really I never considered these kinds of maps to be geared toward that sort of audience- it's a complex, deep strategy map meant to appeal to ambitious or veteran players. I'm not sure it's necessary to tweak all of the bonuses so that they provide comparable benefit for their cost.

Well, we'll see about that in the first few rounds from all the 'balanced gameplay' buffins. But i would like to have a relateivly balanced game to start.

The map's scheme follows the classic cairnswk 'layer' system where a single region or group of regions can apply to multiple bonuses. Thus, some bonuses could be considered 'kicker'/'support'/'secondary'-type bonuses that would only be pursued as the cherry on the sundae, so to speak, rather than as a core bonus to build a power base. Obviously gross differences in cost vs. benefit among the bonuses could be a problem, but I'm not seeing that here.

I think the landowner bonuses will be the main layer, while the other accused and assuser bonuses etc will rack up later in the game. The fact that you can't get a complete set of landowners in one go without going through buggy stops will at least lengthen the rounds, but no so far as Das Schloss.

That said, the Witch Hill + Prison + Judges + any Hanged bonus should be easier to accomplish than it is, not to balance it against other bonuses so much as to make it more attractive. Witch Hill and the Prison should have more of a spotlight in the gameplay of the map!
Thus, my feeling is that the bonus should be strengthened for thematic purposes. Right now, Witch Hill and the Prison are kind of a distant 'secondary' bonus and will probably be ignored in most (not all) games.

Unfortunately, i can't move the physical location of those terts to the middle of the map, and since they are proabably going to come in at the end of the game, perhaps they should be made an objective do you think?
If the objective come into play, then i would need to see all of Witch Hill, Judges, Prison, Meeting Halls, Accused and Accusers plus Hanged as the objective.

Having said that, I still don't have the starting positions on there, so will put them back on a new version shortly.
These will proably add significant challenges to the gameplay, I was concerned at the those starting terts that were in close vicinity to town, but see what everyone thinks.

I may need to look at the map again with fresh eyes in a day or two, but right now I think it's overall stamp-worthy.
-- Marhsal Ney

thanks for stamp comment, but i think there is a little ways to go yet on this one and gameplay decisions.
I look forward to further analysis.