Eight Thoughts [Quenched]

[cairnswk]

What a work of ART!. Congrats WM. Another sterling effort. 5 Gold Stars

[Coleman]

I used to support the mind -1 but I'm getting burnt out with the whole thing. I like the solution that we let all the symbol territories one way attack reason.

I think this would also add to the chaos of the map. Which is one of the things that I think makes it fun, and is kind of what I was going for from the concept stage.

[AndyDufresne]

So similar to the Helipad concept attacking one way the Mountain Kings in the KOTM map?


--Andy

[Coleman]

So similar to the Helipad concept attacking one way the Mountain Kings in the KOTM map?


--Andy

Why did you have to point that out? I've been openly hating that from day one and I don't want people to feel like all of WidowMakers maps are the same.

I think it's time to make myself take a break.

[WidowMakers]

So similar to the Helipad concept attacking one way the Mountain Kings in the KOTM map?


--Andy

I really don't like that idea of having the symbols attack the middle. Not because of KOTM but because it does not make sense. I say leave the middle with zero bonus or have it the way it currently is on page 23.

[KEYOGI]

I say leave the middle with zero bonus or have it the way it currently is on page 23.

I think leaving it without a bonus is the best option. My opinion hasn't changed over the last 7 pages.

[Samus]

3. Mind + region worth -1, Mind + Reason worth +1.

So if you have just Mind and Reason, you get a bonus. If you have Mind, Reason, and a region, it works out to 0. If you have Mind, Reason, and two regions, it works out to -1 total. And on and on.

Philosophically similar to #2, but the idea is that if you have more than 1 thought in your Mind, it starts to overwhelm your Reason.

Everyone seems to have missed this post because Andy totally upstaged me with his "Final Forge" announcement........upstager..........

Anyway, I still think this is the best solution.

[Coleman]

3. Mind + region worth -1, Mind + Reason worth +1.

So if you have just Mind and Reason, you get a bonus. If you have Mind, Reason, and a region, it works out to 0. If you have Mind, Reason, and two regions, it works out to -1 total. And on and on.

Philosophically similar to #2, but the idea is that if you have more than 1 thought in your Mind, it starts to overwhelm your Reason.

Everyone seems to have missed this post because Andy totally upstaged me with his "Final Forge" announcement........upstager..........

Anyway, I still think this is the best solution.

While I could code that, I'm still not sure it's a wonderful idea. But if someone else does I'm not going to argue against it.

[hecter]

I leave for a few days, and this reaches final forge Well congrats I am very happy and can't wait to play it. I think this will be one of my favourite maps

[luckiekevin]

I think your name credit "coleman" could be a bit smaller as at first glance it looks like something involved with the gameplay because of it's size.

[Coleman]

Here is the new xml without the -1 bonus involved.

http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/The8Thoughts_07.xml

[WidowMakers]

Here is the new xml without the -1 bonus involved.

http://members.cox.net/gyrigo/CC/The8Thoughts_07.xml

I will use this XML to update the new maps with amries.
So the update tomorrow will include:
1)Updates Army pics using Coleman's XML
2)Remove the MIND&REASON BONUS TEXT.
3)Use the Ally text explanation WITHOUT the Seats. (Older Style)
4)Clean up the territory border colors so they are correctly colored as per their Thought color (IE fix the brown color in the BLue area

I think that is it.

[anamainiacks]

3. Mind + region worth -1, Mind + Reason worth +1.

So if you have just Mind and Reason, you get a bonus. If you have Mind, Reason, and a region, it works out to 0. If you have Mind, Reason, and two regions, it works out to -1 total. And on and on.

Philosophically similar to #2, but the idea is that if you have more than 1 thought in your Mind, it starts to overwhelm your Reason.

Everyone seems to have missed this post because Andy totally upstaged me with his "Final Forge" announcement........upstager..........

Anyway, I still think this is the best solution.

I think this one would be really hard to explain properly with the amount of space there is available...

Well at least it's better than the current -1 Mind without Reason and 0 Mind with Reason, but still doesn't seem like the best solution to me.

And the problem with no bonus is that mind can just easily slice into any root of Thoughts and cause them to lose their bonus. I think the seats being allowed to attack Reason 1-way is best.

Or maybe you could split up Mind and Reason equally, so that instead of having Reason within Mind, you have them side by side. But that destroys the philosophical aspect of it...

Hard decision.

[WidowMakers]

Here are the most recent updates. And before anyone says that revelation is in the wrong spot and needs to be moved up. I know I will fix it. How are the armies?

[hecter]

O think the Mind armies should be moved over a bit. They kind of go over the name. Other than that and the Revelation thing, it's beautiful

[Coleman]

O think the Mind armies should be moved over a bit. They kind of go over the name. Other than that and the Revelation thing, it's beautiful

Yeah, on the small map I was facing a trade off between the number being just perfectly smashed in or overlapping the border or mind.

If nobody thinks a slight overlap on the border would look bad I can move it right a pixel.

[Zorg_rsk]

Ok I have a quick gameplay question:


Concerning "Alliances". I'm not sure if its clear wether you need the back territories only, or the entire continent of each thought for the bonus to be given.

If its the continent then it won't work because due to shared territories to own an alliance and get the bonus NO ONE ELSE will control a continent and therefore you'll only ever get it when you've basicly won.

Secondly on the issue of the center. I'm not sure which option is the best, other than to say that the (-1) WON'T work, and hers why:

The problem is that whoever controls the center will in the mid/late game, have a huge amount of power.

However the use of -1 means two things happen:

1. In the early game one player gets stuck with "mind" and suffers from it which is quite unfair.

2. Mid/Late game when the territory is valuable its very easy to avoid the -1, because all you need to do is also take Reason which unless someone has heavily fortified will probably be fairly easy to take, and then easy to defend.

So on the whole the -1 does not help the problem at all.

[Samus]

Ok I have a quick gameplay question:


Concerning "Alliances". I'm not sure if its clear wether you need the back territories only, or the entire continent of each thought for the bonus to be given.

If its the continent then it won't work because due to shared territories to own an alliance and get the bonus NO ONE ELSE will control a continent and therefore you'll only ever get it when you've basicly won.

Secondly on the issue of the center. I'm not sure which option is the best, other than to say that the (-1) WON'T work, and hers why:

The problem is that whoever controls the center will in the mid/late game, have a huge amount of power.

However the use of -1 means two things happen:

1. In the early game one player gets stuck with "mind" and suffers from it which is quite unfair.

2. Mid/Late game when the territory is valuable its very easy to avoid the -1, because all you need to do is also take Reason which unless someone has heavily fortified will probably be fairly easy to take, and then easy to defend.

So on the whole the -1 does not help the problem at all.

For the alliances, you only need the thought, not the whole region.

I think most people have done all the Mind/Reason discussing they're willing to do at this point. Nobody could agree on anything so it's currently just nothing.

[Nikolai]

I'm going to give the Mind/Reason thing one more shot, since it really concerns me that whoever controls Mind will dominate the game. As a no cards player, I don't want it to come down to luck. So let me offer this idea.

I think Samus might've been on to something. What if we say that if you control Mind, all your Thoughts are worth 1 less? Forget any bonuses initially, what if we just make it so that once you have a Thought, you have to decide between a)defending more choke points and having a higher income or b)having a lower income, but gaining the tactical ability to prevent others from seizing bonuses of their own - if you're able to use your smaller income well?

I like the idea, since it forces a tactical decision that could make or break a person's game, and it reduces the effective importance of controlling Mind. It also means that you can't just race for a thought. I know I'd prefer option b, but I know others who depend more on high income per turn who would prefer option a. What do you all think?


Oh, and Coleman, about the Mind army/border thing... it already looksl like the army shadow on large and small maps is pushing into the border, so why not just drop the army shadow for Mind to the bottom half of the circle? If that looks like it would confuse people between which space was Mind and which was Reason, try reversing the Reason title and army shadow. I really don't think you've got any more space to spare as things are now. So you'd wind up - potentially - with:

Mind (title)
Reason(title)
army shadow (Reason)
army shadow (Mind)

Which makes sense to me, at least as I have the picture in my head.

[Zorg_rsk]

I 100% agree with Nikolai's suggestion, I think it is definitly a doable solution which would fix the problem in a non-complicated way.

[Lone.prophet]

this allied thing is weird cause when u have

law
knowledge
wealth

u get +2

than when u get 1 more (war or harmony) u get another +2

this is a major flaw i think with a bit of luck u can get more than 10 bonus a turn

[freezie]

this allied thing is weird cause when u have

law
knowledge
wealth

u get +2

than when u get 1 more (war or harmony) u get another +2

this is a major flaw i think with a bit of luck u can get more than 10 bonus a turn

Ermm..you would actually need 2 more to gain another bonus. Like the symbol for war and death with your exemple above.

[qeee1]

this allied thing is weird cause when u have

law
knowledge
wealth

u get +2

than when u get 1 more (war or harmony) u get another +2

this is a major flaw i think with a bit of luck u can get more than 10 bonus a turn

Ermm..you would actually need 2 more to gain another bonus. Like the symbol for war and death with your exemple above.

eh no, lone prophet is right, if you have law, knowledge, wealth and war you have two allied symbol groups:

Law, knowledge, wealth
war, wealth, knowledge

However this is intentional I think.

Lovely map by the way.

Nikoli's suggestion is an interesting one, but is it feasible via xml? would it mean that for every continent you own you'd lose one army?

Also how would it be explained on map... would it be too cluttered?

[freezie]

Ah yes..Just saw my mistake..I was going from war while it's from wealth.

Sorry about this.<


And yes, I beleive it is intentional.

[WidowMakers]

Here are the updated pics

Without mind -1 bonus



With -1 bonus