Consequences of Gay Marriage Thread

[comic boy]

Mr and Mrs Gringo
I find it slightly ironic that you identify certain factors for people 'turning' gay without acknowledging that evangelism is embraced by many for exactly the same reasons.

[Pirlo]

who wanna marry me? dun mind being a gay for a week or 2

[PLAYER57832]

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A good number of the gay people that I know are ex-gay people. (There are thousands more, but I know several personally) You hear a lot of people stating the opinion that this doesn’t happen, that if a person is gay, it is an inherent part of who they are and they can’t change. They are guessing. These people know otherwise. It’s not that I am summarily throwing out anyone’s opinions as delusions, but “a person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an opinion.” I choose to believe those with an experience.

I seperate this because I want to deal with the second part later. There are really 3 different issues here, though you make it seem as one.

First, there is more evidence that a segment of the population are actually bisexual. That is, they can be attracted to both males and females. They may identify themselves as gay, but find later they can be attracted to their gender.

Second, though I know this is definitely not always the case (note getting into percentages here), some do plain lie, particularly in church. Sometimes this lie is a "deep lie", a denial of self. That is the part that worries many psycologists. These are the ones who may seem normal on the outside. Some continue that way, some "snap". Some of these are among the most aggressive anti-homosexual people, some just "snap" in other ways. This happens with many deep-seated feelings, not just homosexuality, but in homosexuality, you combine 2 "biggies"...faith and sex. Its a powerful combination.

Another segment never really change their deep feelings, but find ways to suppress them without denying. They would see this as a constant challenge, but it really means they have changed "on the outside", but not on the inside.

Finally and thirdly, why should they HAVE to change? Sure, I understand the Christian/other religious debates. However, why should society declare this wrong? I don't accept Buddhism or Hinduism, but would never want to see them outlawed, because I know that when some beliefs and ideas are threatened, we all wind up being threatened. The exception is things that cuase real and true harm to others. This just is not one of those.

[
Of those, both ex- and still-gay who have talked to me about how they feel, the biggest hurts in their lives are those that led them to become gay. A common scenario is this: sensitive, creative, non-aggressive boys, who like things like poetry or cooking, are bullied mercilessly by the “tough kids”, both the athletic type and the thug type. They are also mocked and belittled by most of the girls. Unfortunately, often the only place that “different” boys find understanding, acceptance and peace is among the gays.

I understand that because I was one of those guys. In my little eastern Connecticut town the students and teachers in the high school worshipped the members of the football and wrestling teams. As a hippie-type who wrote poetry and had contempt for machismo and aggression, I was pretty much a bully magnet. In that little town in the mid 70’s there wasn’t really a gay community, but my friends were the other outcasts.

Let me tell you about Junior. He was the nephew of a deaconess at our church here to whom my wife is very close. He was gay, and dying of AIDS, and had come to stay with her for his last days. My wife and I met him several times, and she had the opportunity to spend a good deal of time with him and grew very fond of him. He had been a sensitive child who liked cooking more than sports. His macho father derided and beat him and called him “maricon”. He became homosexual because of deep emotional wounds, and it resulted in his early death. His situation didn’t need to be “celebrated and affirmed.” It needed to be healed.

First, hopefully warding off some trolls, I know you are not saying that his death was some kind of justice because of his homosexuality. Nor do I believe you acted in judgement.
That aside, the truth is that gender roles were very, very distorted in the 50's and even into the 60's. I saw this most acutely as a woman. I benefitted from not having to be in the immediate front lines in most situations, but some of it still persists even today. Along with the idea that suddenly women did not have to be stupid, could actually add , subtract and even [gasp] do calculus (OK, exaggerating a bit, but not by far), came the realization that men could hug their kids, cook, clean, etc. Superficially, those things were easy. Harder is the fact that there are real deep differences in the way people deal with things, and some of those seem, in a very, very broad way to corrospond with gender. Women are a tad more sensitive, when you take the whole. Men are more physically strong. BUT, take any two individuals and its not uncommon to find a man more sensitive, a woman more phsyically strong. However, in the past, because these roles were so set, anyone who was on the "edges" was often labeled "wrong". In the 70's and early 80's, that sometimes got translated into sexuality. The truth is, it was a part of the overall change. It was part of society "feeling its way" into what really was female, male, etc in the new "enlightened" times.

As you note, there were mistakes. BUT, to claim they went only one direction is just wrong. I actually was fairly stereotypical growing up in that I wanted dolls, patent leather shoes and the dresses the other girls wore. In may case, I often did not get them for reasons part finance and part other issues. I also grew up on a farm, where ALL the girls did chores, just like our brothers, we got dirty... and then we cleaned up and put on our dresses to go to school, church, etc. In fact, I can remember when most girls wore dresses even to play and work! (dating myself there.. I suspect we are close in age, but anyway).

Anyway, fast forward a few years and I entered the workforce. I love science, math... always have. To get back to roles still not changing, I scored in the 97-98% of college bound seniors for math, but no one.. not until I was a senior ever encouraged me to go into math, take higher level math courses. In fact, one of my advisors specifically tried to discourage me. (then he got me in his class, where I was the one person who understood clearly what he was saying and realized he had goofed). Anyway. For me, as with most women I know, going into a non-traditional field had nothing really to do with "breaking barriers" (for one thing, I was falsely led to believe they no longer existed). I preferred working outside to sitting at a desk, writing. And, I wanted to do something that would pay better than what were pretty meager secretary wages.

Anyway, what I found was that while the guys got rewarded for working hard, getting dirty, etc. I, instead got told that I was "making the guys look bad" (seriously!). Rumours abounded that I "must be" homosexual, etc. I changed jobs, but this persisted for a while. It was ironic because at that time, I was involved with very fundamentalist churches and really did ot approve of homosexuality. However, as you have noted, being Christian it not about treating other people terribly. I think I have said this before, but people would give everyone but "them" rides to town, etc. I could not stand that kind of nonsense. I was clear that no, I did not agree with homosexuality, but did not believe in being an asshole. (this probably made a few more people think I was secretly homosexual, but I did not care .. people I cared about did not think that).

Today, I watch young kids. It is ironic how much they seem to follow stereotypes in some ways, but absolutely eschew them in others. Well, maybe not ironic when you stop to think about it. When my son, now 10, was young, a couple of fathers raised eyebrows at the boys playing with cooksets and dolls. I asked them if they cooked, held babies? They responded "of course".. I then said, "well, see.. they are mirroring you!" (with a smile). However, at the same time, if you watched a tad closer, you would see that while the boys did sometimes play with dolls, they way they played with them was not the way girls did. When they fed them, it was a race... do it quickly, then on to the next thing.. etc. And, well, the dolls were more likely to be just thrown on the floor than gently set in their seats. It was not 100%, girls dumped their dolls, boys sometimes put them in seats, etc.

I should also note that I grew up in CA. (though my sons are being raised in PA)

Anyway, my point is that those pictures you paint were destructive for EVERYONE. However, to say that this is what "made someone gay", is a distortion. There IS absolutely some tie-in with abuse, sexual abuse and extreme gender repression abuse. The boy who is chastized for simply liking to cook, or crying a "bit too much" when he is hurt, etc can wind up with the distorted idea that these tendencies "mean he is gay". However, to say that this is why so many people are gay is just wrong.

Rather, its more a case that people who were breaking gender roles/barriers had difficult times in life. That doesn't mean that every boy who "likes pink" and every girl who "likes getting dirty" are gay. It does mean that soceity's so-called "modern" ideas of gender are just wrong. Thankfully, people recognize that. However, over and above all that is the fact that some people DO genuinely not just "like pink", but guys feel much closer to, feel sexually attracted to other guys. This happens when there is no abuse, when there is no false gender roll issues, etc.

In other words, sure, sometimes homosexuality is caused by negative events, but more often it has always been there, but events determine if the person admits it or not. (more on this later).

[

Before Junior died, he asked Jesus into his heart, and I know that he is in heaven. Did he “repent” of being homosexual? I don’t know, none of us asked him.

Speaking of my wife, I showed her your question as I was thinking about my answer and she said she wanted to post something.


Mrs. d1g:

If I understand your question correctly you are asking 1) if we know any homosexual people at all, and if so 2) if we know them well enough to have a friendship with them, not just say Hi and bye, 3) if we treated them differently because they were gay, and4) if this friendship had a positive impact in our lives.

Basically I understand your questions to be if I know homosexuals, both men and women, well enough to have an opinion from personal experience and not just stereotypical information from the extreme conservative right. I am going to give you a very brief description of some of my experience and my conclusions due to that experience.

While working at a high end fashion department store over 20 years ago I had the opportunity to work with about 10 to 20 openly gay men for about 18+ months.

Looking back what I found positive about the experience is that I got to know them as individuals and see how they acted as a group.

It took me a while to get used to the atmosphere there, but once adjusted, I was able to look past the homosexuality of my coworkers. What I saw was a sad group of people who were deeply wounded, trying their darnedest to act happy by putting others down, being catty and flirting with everyone in sight all in the name of liberty, fun & exclusivity (High fashion breeds contempt). What I saw was hurting people looking to ease the pain from their own lives by choosing destructive behavior. While yes there is some of this kind of behavior in every office, it was a lot worse here. I have worked in many types of offices and truth is I have never seen the kind of sadness and despair in a heterosexual workplace as I did in that department store.

One young man in particular made a comment that made me realize how hurt he was by his father and the lack of interest his father had shown him all his life. Immediately I sensed that maybe if this man’s father had shown an interest in and had bonded with his son, this man would not be looking for young men/older teen boys to have a relationship with. Someone else who I got to know a lot closer in a more social setting also became gay because of the abusive homosexually insulting words and beatings his father showered him with. In both cases being homosexual or choosing that lifestyle was a result of wanting and needing a close relationship with their fathers. The most positive thing that came out of knowing both these men is the realization of how important and powerful is a father’s love in the life of any child.

As far as I can tell of gay women I find that in a lot of cases it is because of abusive or just hurtful relationships with the male authority figures in their lives. If a man that they have loved and trusted can turn around and hurt them then maybe they do not want to risk having a relationship with a man. I know of 3 women who after their divorce, had a gay relationship and later went back to a heterosexual relationship or straight lifestyle. I know of a fourth who struggled with homosexual feelings on & off until she met the right man. One of the three and this fourth women were definitely due to being hurt by their fathers; again the importance, the power of, a good loving Father image in the life of any child.

What you describe is absolutely real. However, did the pain you describe truly cause the homosexuality or was the pain because they were homosexual?

It used to be thought that boys became "sissy" because of neglect of their fathers. We now know this is just not true. BUT, many times fathers have a hard time connecting with boys "not like them". I am not going to get into a lot of psycho-babble. It is irrelevant. The thing is that you have to be very careful to distinguish between symptoms and cause. Homosexuality, causes pain. That does not mean it is caused by pain, with the exception of abuse.

(continued by Mrs D.)
I do not hate people who practice the gay life style, I feel for them. But as much as I feel for the first man I mentioned who was neglected by his father, I cannot condone his interest in seeking a relationship with young men/maybe teen boys still developing their identity. I have a real problem with the idea of the equivalent of statutory rape or pedophilia.

Some homosexuals are pedophiles, but there is no general tie-in.
What used to happen, though is that when homosexuality was still so very highly discriminated against, (even in areas like fashion) the ones who "dared" to "come out" were more the "flagrently homosexual" guys and gals. That is, the extremes were out more quickly than the rest. Among other reasons, they were just less able to hide who they were. Judging any group by the extremes is a mistake. The truth is that most people you knew who were homosexual almost certainly were unknown to you. Maybe things are open enough where you live that you know this now, I don't know. The only reason I came to know about several adults I knew as a child who were homosexual was the change in our church's policy, the discussion surrounding that change.

[Mrs D continued...]
I wish that the person I am now was the person who worked at that store 20 years ago. I would have taken more time to get to know each person individually and maybe gotten each of their backstory. Maybe within the context of a caring friendship I would have offered an introduction to the ONE who has helped me with all my hurts, all my wounds and who has taken all my choices good or bad and made them into something good that can actually be of help to others.

We are all sinners in need of salvation; we all make bad choices trying to cover the deep hurts of our past. The problem comes when instead of admitting we are making bad choices, instead of admitting that we are deeply wounded we self-medicate with booze drugs, sex, gossip, greed, power, etc. Homosexually is a symptom of deeper issues that can only be healed within a close loving relationship with the one who created us, loves us, wants to heal us and is more than willing to walk the long road to recovery with us from the very destructive lifestyle choices we make. Ask anyone in any of the anonymous groups, the road is hard, but the goal of a real relationship w/HIM is well worth it. I should know I have been on that road for more than 30 years.

PS: In writing this I did not read or discuss what my husband wrote, neither did he with me. This is what each of us believes due to our own experience and conclusions. I write this because skimming through his work I saw some very similar wording.

This last part is, of course true. Of course, I believe that Christ helps all. However, to say that this is the only answer for homosexuality is wrong. We have in our church several people who wrestle with or who are openly homosexual (I belong to an ELCA congregation). Our (individual) church does not necessarily "agree with" homosexuality. Our pastor won't do same-sex marriages, for example (though he does know of other Pastors relatively nearby who will). Basically, the feeling in our church is that this is like many, many other situations. It is something between the God and the person. The church's role is to help teach and live the Bible. There is very little in the Bible about homosexuality. Many, many other issues are far more prominent. It is those issues about which our church mostly deals. When homosexuality comes up, we turn to the Bible... and find that it is very far from unabiguous.



To return to Mr D. ----

The real bottom line is as I stated above, why should homosexuality not be allowed in a free and open society that is to respect all beliefs? And, with that respect, what right have we to deny these particular people the legal protections and benefits that come with a state marriage?