Hiroshima - 1945

[VicFontaine]

During a break on the Trek map, I've nearly completed the design for a map based on the US bombing of Hiroshima in August of 1945.

Ready to pass the map to an XML genius and/or excellent crayon-colorer who will make it pretty and viable.

Please PM me with your email and I will send a scanned shot.

[Industrial Helix]

something tells me that this map will not be recieved well due to the touchiness of the subject

[VicFontaine]

something tells me that this map will not be recieved well due to the touchiness of the subject

We have maps on Nazis, Russians, etc. That would be odd to disallow a historical map because we're scared of hurting people's feelings.

Sounds like historical censorship. But I guess we'll see.

[thenobodies80]

Without considering that in my opinion is a bad choice (and not only for a CC map), I don't get how this could be represented on a CC map.

What type of gameplay you can develope in a historical fact that is nothing more than take off with a plane and throw a bomb?
Hiroshima wasn't a military location, it wasn't directly involved into the war till the bomb....
And everything else, sadly, is just suffering and pain...so no funny at all.

Many aspects of this historical fact are still debated, so using an euphemism I think it's not a great choice for a map, "probably"

[gimil]

something tells me that this map will not be recieved well due to the touchiness of the subject

We have maps on Nazis, Russians, etc. That would be odd to disallow a historical map because we're scared of hurting people's feelings.

Sounds like historical censorship. But I guess we'll see.

I don't know, this is by far humanities darkest hour. I can see it being a map if it was done in good taste. But like nobodies said, I don't think you can make a map of this in good taste, no matter what way you can do it.

[koontz1973]

Sounds like historical censorship. But I guess we'll see.

Would not call it censorship, just an idea that would probably not get very far. Agreed though we need more Pacific war maps.

[VicFontaine]

Leaving aside the debate about whether this was humanity's "darkest hour," the map is an overshot of Hiroshima's city plan after the devastation.

It's not complicated, it's tough to play, and people would probably learn a few things.

[Industrial Helix]

Well, if we're going to ignore people's feelings, let push an Auschwitz map through... I think it more map potential than Hiroshima... but if indescriminate bombing is your thing, I think the firebombing of Tokyo has some potential. but I don't see anything interesting hapopening besides 8 players with airplanes bombarding neutral targets. Or perhaps they could be attacking and there could be an area win condition and it would be like a race... Through in Dresden and make it a map pack

[gimil]

Well, if we're going to ignore people's feelings, let push an Auschwitz map through... I think it more map potential than Hiroshima... but if indescriminate bombing is your thing, I think the firebombing of Tokyo has some potential. but I don't see anything interesting hapopening besides 8 players with airplanes bombarding neutral targets. Or perhaps they could be attacking and there could be an area win condition and it would be like a race... Through in Dresden and make it a map pack

I think I agree with you when I say that this map should go nowhere.

[VicFontaine]

This exchange is short-sighted. We have a Stalingrad map...do y'all have any idea how many millions perished in that brutal assault—the rape, the brutality? No one says a thing.

In any case, the map is completed and I'll post an image later. If you don't like it, don't play it. Pretty simple.

[VicFontaine]

BTW, this isn't a map where you are bombing Hiroshima...it's a map about what happens afterwards.

[VicFontaine]

Never done this before, but someone told me to host the image on Photobucket.

So here's the link to photobucket.

http://s1101.photobucket.com/albums/g42 ... ma1945.jpg

[thenobodies80]

If you don't like it, don't play it. Pretty simple.

It doesn't work in this way.

BTW, this isn't a map where you are bombing Hiroshima...it's a map about what happens afterwards.

So it's about something that few people preferred to not show to the world for about 20 years because it was too crude.

This is afterwards:

Click image to enlarge.

I don't see something that can be used as gameplay element except dust and three buildings
....as said this map is bad idea. Don't understand why it's so hard to understand for you.
Use your gameplay schema for something else.

Seriously, stop now. Call this censorship, call me a dictator but you'll never have the approval for this map. I just call it common sense.

[VicFontaine]

Forgive me: I'm unclear on how this works, and this isn't a disrespectful question:

Who's in charge? If you are, and you're telling me I'm not allowed to do this, that's fine: I'll move on.

If you are, and you're telling me we can't have this map (the image of which I've already posted), were these questions raised with the Stalingrad map?

[thenobodies80]

What? The fact than during staligrad died more people ? That is a wrong count if you consider the long term effects.
Anyways do you think I need to make a comparison in that way?
I'm well aware about the fact that staligrad was a brutal fight, one of the worst.
But please think a second to the fact that even if wars still happen, no one has used nuclear weapons after hiroshima and nagasaki.
And just for the record I wasn't in charge when Stalingrad was developed. Said that i think that cairnswk has draw a map that celebrate the heroism of those men, not the death of tons of civilians, it makes that map really different from what i can see in your draft. (more you close, faster you die)

[VicFontaine]

Then can I get approval if I do a map based on nuclear attack and its aftermath that isn't based on Hiroshima or Nagasaki? Something fictional?

[QoH]

Has anyone even looked at the draft VF posted? I think it's actually interesting. Perhaps come up with more game play uniqueness, but I don't see how it's offensive in the least.

[Industrial Helix]

Post the draft!

Or at least if its out there somewhere someone tell me where cause I can't find it

[VicFontaine]

I posted the draft on the previous page. It's a link to photobucket. I'm sorry I can't do more...I don't know how to post the draft in the text of this. I'm virtually computer illiterate. It's incredible I can even operate the Internet.

[QoH]

Click image to enlarge.

Gotta say, the bonus system needs a severe tweaking, although the current one fits in with the situation...

Nice handwriting

[VicFontaine]

Thanks for posting that image! As for the bonuses: my hope was for this map to:
1) Teach something about Hiroshima = the map is VERY close to what the infrastructure of the city was in August of 1945 after the devastation. The scratched out black shapes were remaining buildings.
2) Be a QUICK play, i.e., no long-term games (yes, I know we have "round limits," but I dislike those).
3) In order to achieve a quick play, have players start with hundreds of armies but very LIMITED time to utilize them: with troop loss closer to the blast zone, players would lose one tert's initial drop of 40 men (all terts, even neutral, start with 40...and all terts, even neutral, lose men every turn) at Ground Zero within 5 turns; at the Outer Ring withing 10 turns.
4) In order to keep the theme of devastation: you can't have any bonuses but the basic +3. The +3 would need to be in the game simply because, eventually, there'd be an endless stalemate of 1's all over the board. The +3 ensures there will be a victor.

With all that in mind, isn't this a good map?

[QoH]

I don't think anyone can say it's a bad map... It's not offensive in any way I can tell. Actually, very historical; no offensive symbols etc.

I'd push for this if it came to that I think.

[Seamus76]

I don't think anyone can say it's a bad map... It's not offensive in any way I can tell. Actually, very historical; no offensive symbols etc.

I think I have to agree with this, based on the image. And maybe the thread would have been different if Vic had been able to post the image in the thread originally, but maybe not. Personally I'm not a fan of the gameplay, but it has potential, and this is a bright group who can work it out.

What I don't like is the knee-jerk reaction to the "topic", and possibly the direction the foundry is heading, if in fact this is how things are going to be. We need to let people at least develop maps and ideas that can be worked on, rather than totally tear them apart before there is a chance to work out the controversial/offensive natures of the maps. Then if they need to be shot down, so be it. We can't just say "no that topic will piss people off, don't even start". The point of the mods should be to direct the map makers and the foundry in a positive, entertaining direction rather than dictating what will and what should not be attempted. We should be encouraging people to push the envelope (but not cross the line), or we risk alienating new map makers or discouraging old makers from attempting maps that might get people to think about history and the world around them. Those who forget history are destined to repeat it.

Just my two cents.

[Peter Gibbons]

I don't know, this is by far humanities darkest hour.

"By far." Really?

You can debate the merits of the atomic bombings all day. Many have and many will for decades to come. But surely there have been much darker hours over the course of humanity--many of them occurring in the preceding months and years. I'm sure there was an element of vengeance involved in the decision-making process over the bombings but history has shown that part of the decision-making process was also how to keep casualties as low as possible and prevent the need for an invasion of the Japanese home islands. Like the decision itself, you can debate the validity of that argument, but it shows that there was attempts at reason during the process that took into account the fate of the adversary (as a whole). The same cannot exactly be said of the Holocaust and the Rape of Nanking.

And lest you think this is just a pro-American defense, I'd put things like the trans-Atlantic slave trade high up on the list of things that could constitute "humanity's darkest hour." I just don't think you can place the atomic bombings on such a list. Controversial military decision? Yes. Unfortunate and regrettable mass casualty incident? Yes. But this wasn't a situation of mass murder motivated by pure evil or something close to it, like can be said of many other historical incidents over time.

As for this proposed map. I could go either way and I do understand the sensitivities involved. Conquer Club doesn't have to host a map that might offend, at minimum, Japanese customers (and I'm sure many others). If there's not a lot of support for the map from the community, I've got no problem with the foundry blocking its development.

But let's not pretend that there isn't a bit of selective censorship here. Stalingrad is a good example, but there are many maps on this site that could offend certain segments. Pearl Harbor celebrates a surprise bombing that killed civilians and non-combatant military personnel. The Dust Bowl glorifies and makes light of a time where people were dying in terrible conditions. New World, in a way, celebrates the beginning of genocide. Battle of Iraq might not be looked upon favorably by all residents of that country. Hell, even the Soviet Union map memorializes a country which a lot of Eastern Europeans and Baltics (amongst other) believe to be one of the most evil regimes of all-time, responsible under Stalin for the murder of millions. The list could go on.

I, myself, am not making any of these arguments. In fact I play many of the maps I just mentioned. And like I said, I've got no problem with the foundry halting production of a Hiroshima map if that's the ultimate decision. I would just politely argue that you shouldn't do it from a proverbial high horse, because there's a lot of controversial maps (depending on your perspective) that are already out there.

[koontz1973]

While I agree that this map should not go ahead as it is now, it looks different so lets get it changed so it can move forward under a different style and title.

New title could be - Pyongyang 2022 (if you did not know, Pyongyang is the capital of N Korea. As they do not have internet, no one there can complain) That solves the the offensive nature of the title. Gameplay will need a lot of work so it might be nice to be able to read the instructions better. Can you type them.

Vic, rightly or wrongly, this map will not go ahead as is. As for a crayon - colourer, that's you. Get to it and learn how to use GIMP. Very simple to have a play around.