Marxists Thread

everywhere116 · Post by **everywhere116** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:57 pm

All you communists amaze me. Ever wonder why communism wasnt succesfully implemented? Maybe because it cant be implemented.

And dont you dare say capitalists pollute more than communists. China alone pollutes more than the western world.

KomradeKloininov · Post by **KomradeKloininov** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:58 pm

Exactly, jnd94. The main loophole is that people are greedy SOBs and in either society, capitalist or communist, that degrades the system. However, capitalism runs on that and makes it profitable, while communism tries to eliminate it. You be the judge as to which approach is better.

jnd94 · Post by **jnd94** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:01 pm

well as for which one works better, obviously capitalism is because it has survived a much longer time. The smarter one, however, is communism. With it, no one is more important than another. There probably will be less racial tension, and poorer countries could develop. BUT, it will never work so....

KomradeKloininov · Post by **KomradeKloininov** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:03 pm

it might work, it just can't in our current world. Maybe in the future.

jnd94 · Post by **jnd94** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:04 pm

KomradeKloininov wrote:it might work, it just can't in our current world. Maybe in the future.

ha. at the rate this planet is dying, there will be no "future". Maybe if we miraculously learn how to adapt on mars

jnd94 · Post by **jnd94** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:05 pm

if this world doesnt die of global warming, or natural disasters, there will be many more huge wars to do it. You can tell im pesamistic

Stopper · Post by **Stopper** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:19 pm

everywhere116 wrote:All you communists amaze me. Ever wonder why communism wasnt succesfully implemented? Maybe because it cant be implemented.

And dont you dare say capitalists pollute more than communists. China alone pollutes more than the western world.

If the Chinese are communist, then my arse is a banjo.

I know "my arse is a banjo" sounds bizarre, but Sean Connery said it once in a film, well ages ago, and it's stuck in my mind ever since. I've wanted to use it ever since then.

Atilla · Post by **Atilla** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:28 pm

The Chinese are the second world power... and economic force..

Atilla · Post by **Atilla** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:29 pm

they are turning capitalist..

jnd94 · Post by **jnd94** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:29 pm

and who are they behind? THE US!!!!!

b.k. barunt · Post by **b.k. barunt** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:39 pm

I remember that quote! It stuck in my mind too - wasn't that from "The Rock"?

Stopper · Post by **Stopper** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:46 pm

b.k. barunt wrote:I remember that quote! It stuck in my mind too - wasn't that from "The Rock"?

Well, I just checked IMDB, but "The Rock" (which I've never seen) appears to have been filmed in black and white. The film I saw wasn't. Plus, he repeatedly said in the film he came from Fife, where my grandparents are from, which also made it memorable. Give me 5 minutes, and I'll have it, I'm sure.

Stopper · Post by **Stopper** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:49 pm

He was a lead actor in "Just Cause", 1995, where he said that line -that film had another leading actor, Laurence Fishburn.

Neutrino · Post by **Neutrino** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:57 pm

jnd94 wrote:well as for which one works better, obviously capitalism is because it has survived a much longer time. The smarter one, however, is communism. With it, no one is more important than another. There probably will be less racial tension, and poorer countries could develop. BUT, it will never work so....

Survived longer???
Dont you know anything about early human history?
Before humanity started aggregating into large towns and cities, most people lived in small villages, whos system of government can best be described as a mix of tribalism and communism.

Capitalism - A few hundred years.

Communism and proto-Communism - A few hundred thousand years.

Im sorry, but they have you beat.

jnd94 · Post by **jnd94** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:02 pm

Neutrino wrote:
jnd94 wrote:well as for which one works better, obviously capitalism is because it has survived a much longer time. The smarter one, however, is communism. With it, no one is more important than another. There probably will be less racial tension, and poorer countries could develop. BUT, it will never work so....
Survived longer???
Dont you know anything about early human history?
Before humanity started aggregating into large towns and cities, most people lived in small villages, whos system of government can best be described as a mix of tribalism and communism.

Capitalism - A few hundred years.

Communism and proto-Communism - A few hundred thousand years.

Im sorry, but they have you beat.

sorry i phrased my sentence wrong. Capitalism has survived longer in the modern-day. Communism, well the ideal, has been around since the appearance of man.

qeee1 · Post by **qeee1** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:16 pm

The environment is most likely to create the next great threat to capatalism, once people see the unsustainability of capatalism, they'll look towards other systems of organising life. That's if they can realise the heart of the problem... the heart of the issue is that if everyone is following a policy of maximising profit (the essential ideal behind capatalism), then unless environmental policies are made profitable the environment will be destroyed, as people/businesses seeking to maximise profit will disregard it. The same is true of everything outside profit, human happiness is made secondary to profit, for example when insecurity amongst women is encouraged to increase the sale of cosmetics. The more advanced the system becomes, the more removed from the people it becomes, and the more pronounced these trends become. No one wants to destroy the environment, but everyone is a cog in the wheel of the greater system leading to that. I'm just doing my job, or I'm just paying the mortage are the typical defence.

Capitalism does have some benefits, so in theory if we could find a way to get these benefits while controlling the negative effects it'd all be ok. Unfortunately most attempts to make environmentalism (or other policies that improve the world) profitable, such as the Kyoto agreement are met with opposition by those who have most to lose, i.e. the biggest polluters, which points to the instability of the system as a whole. It creates a mindset of the primacy of selfish personal gain, and that this is justified.

Of course there are other reasons to object to capitalism, most marxists believe it's a fundamentally unjust system. I'm just concentrating on the environment.

The typical capitalist rebuttal is that capitalism will respond to changing demands in the market, and when the environment becomes a problem, the market will respond to meet it accordingly. The invisible guiding hand if you will. Only:

1. I can see with my own eyes it's not really happening. And even if it does solve the problem now, there'll probably be another down the line. That the market can develop always the necessary technology remains dubious. At some point a change in human attitude will be the only solution.
2. From a justice point of view what about all those companies/people who have been polluting knowing it's bad, but not caring? They've profited out of this system, while others suffered. (As an aside, anyone read the great gatsby lately? look at the valley of ashes as emblematic of the effects of capitalism, wilson is suffering, while Tom Buchannan and the other residents of east and west egg are profiting.)

China's a capitalist country.

Atilla · Post by **Atilla** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:33 pm

does anyone read these long posts??? tighten up... be specific...

Stopper · Post by **Stopper** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:46 pm

I did. It seemed more or less to the point.

Atilla · Post by **Atilla** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:49 pm

you suck..and we're the greateast.. perfect..? no just the best.... anyone not here...wants to be here... why..... well.. I say because there are more 1st generation immigrant millionairs in the US than ANY other country..!! bottom line... true fact.. here is the place to be...

Stopper · Post by **Stopper** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:52 pm

That on the other hand, was short, and seemed to have no point whatsoever.

foolish_yeti · Post by **foolish_yeti** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:10 pm

qeee1 wrote: the heart of the issue is that if everyone is following a policy of maximising profit (the essential ideal behind capatalism), then unless environmental policies are made profitable the environment will be destroyed

Since the man just died on wednesday- a little tribute:

Kurt Vonnegut wrote:We could have saved the Earth but we were too damned cheap.

Atilla · Post by **Atilla** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:57 pm

can you say... stopped up??

Atilla · Post by **Atilla** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:58 pm

chewyman · Post by **chewyman** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:12 pm

KomradeKloininov wrote:it might work, it just can't in our current world. Maybe in the future.

Like people have been saying: communism is an ideal. But it's central flaw lies in the facts that:
1. people are not equal;
2. people are greedy; and
3. people are selfish
Communism will never, ever be achieved in the near or distant future. How can you have a political system that contradicts the very nature of mankind? Until this changes, communism simply won't work, and if our nature changes than we will no longer be human beings as we know ourselves anyway.

spurgistan · Post by **spurgistan** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:19 pm

chewyman wrote:
KomradeKloininov wrote:it might work, it just can't in our current world. Maybe in the future.
Like people have been saying: communism is an ideal. But it's central flaw lies in the facts that:
1. people are not equal;
2. people are greedy; and
3. people are selfish
Communism will never, ever be achieved in the near or distant future. How can you have a political system that contradicts the very nature of mankind? Until this changes, communism simply won't work, and if our nature changes than we will no longer be human beings as we know ourselves anyway.

Like we've been saying, communism HAS worked (just for a few hundred thousand years, nothing compared to the 450 we've had capitalism), people just havrto be socialized to realize that worth isn't imbued in possesions. Tall order, but sertainly not impossible.

Marxists Thread

well... realistically

but then again..

woe..woe..

the point is..

humm

or sterile maybe... lol