Feedback in the foundry

[natty dread]

I'm taking this here to keep this discussion away from map threads.

Lately, some people have accused me of not responding to feedback in the correct way.

Personally, I have always strived to respond to all feedback, whether I agree or disagree with it. I'm in the habit of speaking directly what I think, if I disagree with something I say it straight out, but I never turn down feedback without giving my reasons why I think it's not a good idea.

Now, some people seem to feel this is not the right way to deal with feedback. I've never meant to shoot down anyone's feedback, and in fact I'll be glad to discuss or debate any points there is disagreement over. But some seem to feel that their feedback isn't being listened if I simply say I disagree with it and give my reasons why.

So I'd like to hear what exactly it is that people expect from feedback, how people think it should work in the foundry if this is not how they think it should go?

Also, let's please keep the discussion civilized and leave out the unnecessary flames and insults.

[Victor Sullivan]

Well, with regard to yourself, I never meant it in regard to your responding to feedback, I mean, like, nearly every other post. I never got the impression tkr4lf was having a "holier than thou" attitude. He was making a legitimate post and you blew him off exactly the way tkr4lf said you come off! Really, you are absolutely obnoxious anywhere but here, to be quite honest with you. It's why I've left many off-topic conversations of ours unfinished, because you are exactly as tkr4lf said:

Maybe it's not your intention, but you come off as somebody who thinks they know everything and couldn't give a shit what anybody else thinks. There is an air of superiority and condescension in your speech (or rather your typed words).

You have and do generally respond to feedback in a respectful manner - I won't deny that. But anywhere outside the Foundry you're difficult to "talk" to.

-Sully

[natty dread]

Sully, quite honestly I fail to see what outside-of-foundry discussions have to do with the foundry. If none of this is about foundry things, then why bring this into the foundry?

It's obviously very different what is posted in off topics and what is posted in the foundry. I just can't take anything in off topics seriously anymore. The discussions there are pretty much people just repeating their opinions over and over until it all degenerates into some kind of turf war for internet fame. So I just kinda post there for fun.


Secondly, when someone complains that someone else is "coming off as someone who knows everything" it always gives me the feeling that they're really complaining about something else. I mean, it just smacks of anti-intelligentism... you know, that thing where anyone who speaks in an articulate and thorough manner is ostracized and claimed that "he just thinks he's so much better than the rest of us".

It's the classic cop-off: when you can't argue against the actual point, just argue against the tone of the argument.

Now I'm not claiming that is the case here... However, I also don't claim to know everything, or that I know more about something than everyone else. I don't think I've ever made such a claim anywhere. So arguing that I "come off" like I do just seems kind of vague and unsubstantiated, you know?

[Victor Sullivan]

I understand what you mean. I think the main thing is your sarcasm tends to come off in a condescending manner, and occasionally your responses to some comments (generally ones by "passers by" that come in and either suggest something silly or something that's already been suggested). It seems to me you have difficulty cooling down and responding levelheadedly to criticism and what have you, if that makes sense, though you post above was quite cordial.

-Sully

[natty dread]

Furthermore, if we're talking about people who "think they know everything and think others don't know shit" I don't get why everyone is getting all on my case for. Just go look at any Dim's post anywhere, in or out the foundry...

[natty dread]

I think the main thing is your sarcasm tends to come off in a condescending manner

Is there a way to do sarcasm that doesn't sound condescending to someone?

You know, I have posted over 7000 posts in the foundry alone. During the last 2 years or so. And no one has ever complained about the way I post, before now. So I'm kind of baffled by this. Kind of wondering, where is this shit coming from all of a sudden, you know?

It seems to me you have difficulty cooling down and responding levelheadedly to criticism and what have you

Maybe I have, sometimes. It's probably due to my medication though.

[Victor Sullivan]

Well, I can remember when you were wearing hippo's pink hat - it seemed to me you were much better then, but have slowly "declined", if you will, to now (that is, in terms of the friendliness of your posts). And there is certainly room for forgiveness in outbursts due to medication or even a broken stick, but if it is frequently recurring, then there may be an issue elsewhere.

-Sully

[natty dread]

Well I don't want to go to all the details, but since I've started this medication it's been like all I can do not to blow up about insignificant things in real life, so I really don't have as much self restraint left when it comes to web forums. If some asshole starts being an asshole and comes over all "this is a piece of crap, now change everything" I really don't have the willpower currently to always be all nice about my response. I try, but I don't succeed every time.

[Victor Sullivan]

I understand

-Sully

[IcePack]

Group hug!

[BadgerJelly]

Hey there!

I'm from LG and would happily give you any of my maps if they are up to your standards?
What is the file size limit. At LG its only 300 which can be bad for large maps

Anyway the difference I have noticed here is that its difficult to for me to do this because ALL of your maps have to have territory names written on the board?? Mousing over is much more user friendly IMO

[natty dread]

I'm from LG and would happily give you any of my maps if they are up to your standards?

Well, CC doesn't just accept maps and stick them on the site. If you want your maps playable on this site you'll have to work them through the foundry process like anyone else.

Also, the map images need to be unique, CC won't accept map images that are already in use on another site, even assuming they fulfill the quality standards.

[BadgerJelly]

I'm from LG and would happily give you any of my maps if they are up to your standards?

Well, CC doesn't just accept maps and stick them on the site. If you want your maps playable on this site you'll have to work them through the foundry process like anyone else.

Also, the map images need to be unique, CC won't accept map images that are already in use on another site, even assuming they fulfill the quality standards.

ALL my maps are unique. I use GIMP. Do I HAVE TO put names on territories though?

Have a HUGE one thats nearly 700 terrs but had to tone down quality because file was too big. Any idea of file size limit?

[BadgerJelly]

Just realised what you said ... CC will NOT use maps in use on another site??

Its MY map under MY name. It doesnt make sense because it that does is put me off coming on this site as often. If I have a choice of getting a map on here or LG then its LG everytime! Why not share??

Who do I take this up with?

[koontz1973]

What is LG?
Territ names, yes

[BadgerJelly]

What is LG?
Territ names, yes

LandGrab.
I have to WRITE names on actually map! Oh well guess thats my offer down the drain. I'm not writing out 690 territory names AGAIN!

[natty dread]

Just realised what you said ... CC will NOT use maps in use on another site??

Nope. The map images need to be specifically designed for CC. The thing is, you need to give CC full rights to use the image as they please, and if some other site has some rights to the same image, it won't happen. It's a copyright thing.

Also, the foundry process isn't a binary process. You don't just post a map here and it either gets approved or not... what happens is you post a draft of your map, then you get feedback, make changes, get more feedback, make more changes, etc. etc. Usually you have to make at least 30-50 different versions of your map before it gets to the point where it's considered for beta-testing. It usually takes around 6 months to get a single map playable, from start to finish.

It doesnt make sense because it that does is put me off coming on this site as often.

On CC, mapmaking is not a right, it's a priviledge. Unlike on LG, no one has an automatic right to get their map hosted on the site. But if you work hard enough (and believe me, it does require lots of hard work and dedication) you can get your map approved.

If you don't like these terms, you should stick to LG.

I have to WRITE names on actually map! Oh well guess thats my offer down the drain. I'm not writing out 690 territory names AGAIN!

If writing territory names on a map even once is too much trouble for you, you're not going to make it as a CC mapmaker. I currently have one map where I've had to redo the entire graphics of the map (that is, create a complete map from scratch) four times. And I'm not even a new mapmaker...

In conclusion, mapmaking on CC requires LOTS of work, LOTS of dedication, and LOTS of patience. If you lack any of these things, it's not for you.

[BadgerJelly]

Ok just thought it might be nice to share my maps but I am LG not CC and I am not willing to wait for months to play my own maps.

Maybe in the future I'll make a map for CC but most of the time I am on LG.
I have become quite handy with GIMP now so quality isnt an issue and I know how to make a map that plays well tactically too. 30-50 versions though is a bit much by any standard. I'll keep my eye on the Map Foundry to see how long things take to get through.

Thanks for the info! See you around

[MrBenn]

Just realised what you said ... CC will NOT use maps in use on another site??

Nope. The map images need to be specifically designed for CC. The thing is, you need to give CC full rights to use the image as they please, and if some other site has some rights to the same image, it won't happen. It's a copyright thing.

That's not true.

Unless the author has assigned ownership to Landgrab then (s)he is free to develop that work here. Also CC does not insist on an exclusivity agreement; the author/creator of a CC map could quite easily take any published maps elsewhere should they desire.

[natty dread]

I don't know what you're arguing against? I never said anything contrary to what you're saying...

[MrBenn]

I don't know what you're arguing against? I never said anything contrary to what you're saying...

You said (or suggested) that BadgerJelly wouldn't be able to bring a map to CC that he (or she) had already uploaded to LandGrab (or elsewhere).

[natty dread]

I don't know what you're arguing against? I never said anything contrary to what you're saying...

You said (or suggested) that BadgerJelly wouldn't be able to bring a map to CC that he (or she) had already uploaded to LandGrab (or elsewhere).

Well firstly, if some other site owns the rights to the map image, CC can't use it. Also, the map images on LandGrab are fundamentally unsuitable for CC use, so the point is moot either way.

[BadgerJelly]

I don't know what you're arguing against? I never said anything contrary to what you're saying...

You said (or suggested) that BadgerJelly wouldn't be able to bring a map to CC that he (or she) had already uploaded to LandGrab (or elsewhere).

Well firstly, if some other site owns the rights to the map image, CC can't use it. Also, the map images on LandGrab are fundamentally unsuitable for CC use, so the point is moot either way.

I'm doing it because I can.
I will be making a set of maps soon that will be easily compatable with CC.

Its is clearly stated here and on LG that putting a map on their site gives them the right to use it as they please BUT the original maker has the right to do whatever they want with it.

[natty dread]

I will be making a set of maps soon that will be easily compatable with CC.

Sure, but they will still have to go through the foundry process just like other maps. You'll have to be willing to answer to feedback and make updates & changes as long as it takes for the map to meet CC standards.

[BadgerJelly]

I will be making a set of maps soon that will be easily compatable with CC.

Sure, but they will still have to go through the foundry process just like other maps. You'll have to be willing to answer to feedback and make updates & changes as long as it takes for the map to meet CC standards.

Ok I get it!!
I have faith in my abilities and I am very opened minded when it comes to criticism ... "That looks great!" is a nice comment from someone but I prefer constructive comments