F400 Ranking [Updated 07-01-12]

[benga]

Yeap, all games don't have to be in ranking, just setup min reqs...

[nippersean]

What do you guys think about me creating some sort of guidelines for qualification? That way when benga or someone else creates a tournament or event they can follow the guidelines if they want them to count towards the ranking. It would also give individual clans the headsup on whether they should treat it competitively or if they can use it as a practice/tune-up event.

what did you think was wrong with FD's set up?

[WPBRJ]

gun are you saying your not going to input the rest of the ACC results for the rest of the turny?

[WPBRJ]

Ithink this is what there looking for gun

[Gunn217]

what did you think was wrong with FD's set up?

Nothing. He just used his judgement on whether something was included or not and when it was odd scoring, he came up with a way to make it work...like dividing the total by 2 for the ACC. I would rather not make judgement calls like that. There should be set guidelines (albeit loose ones) that TO's or event organizers could follow if they want their event to count in the rankings.

gun are you saying your not going to input the rest of the ACC results for the rest of the turny?

No, I'll count them as FD has been doing so far. And thanks for the nice looking ranking.

I probably won't get to anything until next week, or later.

[The Voice]

Thank you so much for all the effort you've put into this, Gunn.

[betiko]

yes thanks gunn. surprised to see empire in front of kort! but then again i don't follow all results well enough

[jj3044]

yes thanks gunn. surprised to see empire in front of kort! but then again i don't follow all results well enough

That should change with the next update. Our war with them wasn't finished at the time of this ranking.

[Gunn217]

There is the graph clans 1 thru 5...baby steps!

[Georgerx7di]

I too would like to say thank you. FD had come up with one of the better ranking systems I've seen out there, its nice to see it being maintained. The only one that might be better is chucks ranking system where people from every clan vote. Anyway, thank you for doing all this : )

[Teflon Kris]

What do you guys think about me creating some sort of guidelines for qualification? That way when benga or someone else creates a tournament or event they can follow the guidelines if they want them to count towards the ranking. It would also give individual clans the headsup on whether they should treat it competitively or if they can use it as a practice/tune-up event.

This sounds like putting the cart before the horse.

How about, each time we have a new clan tournament, the CLA has a (quick) vote on whether it is included in the rankings?

[Gunn217]

A quick vote would be fine, but how am I suppose to fairly calculate a war that uses a point system rather than the straight whoever wins the most wins the war? I guess we can cross that bridge when we get there.

[benga]

A quick vote would be fine, but how am I suppose to fairly calculate a war that uses a point system rather than the straight whoever wins the most wins the war? I guess we can cross that bridge when we get there.

Maybe like TPA - points for placing instead points per war.

[Gunn217]

Maybe like TPA - points for placing instead points per war.

It doesn't work that way. The calculation is taking into account the amount of wins for each clan. The weight is calculated by the strength of each clan at that time. So assigning points for a placing wouldn't translate.

[Leehar]

It's all DJ's fault for making a complicated tournament format

[joe snuffy]

Gunn, nice job on this. Good on you for taking this on.

[nippersean]

what did you think was wrong with FD's set up?

Nothing. He just used his judgement on whether something was included or not and when it was odd scoring, he came up with a way to make it work...like dividing the total by 2 for the ACC. I would rather not make judgement calls like that. There should be set guidelines (albeit loose ones) that TO's or event organizers could follow if they want their event to count in the rankings.

gun are you saying your not going to input the rest of the ACC results for the rest of the turny?

No, I'll count them as FD has been doing so far. And thanks for the nice looking ranking.

I probably won't get to anything until next week, or later.

I shudda added thanks, nice work fella - and happy Christmas too

[Teflon Kris]

A quick vote would be fine, but how am I suppose to fairly calculate a war that uses a point system rather than the straight whoever wins the most wins the war? I guess we can cross that bridge when we get there.

Same way FD did - I am happy to work it out for you.

This complication is related to a more general question:

Does winning or losing a clan war make any difference per se? In other words, is a narrow vicotry only a tiny bit better than a narrow defeat?

[QoH]

This complication is related to a more general question:

Does winning or losing a clan war make any difference per se? In other words, is a narrow vicotry only a tiny bit better than a narrow defeat?

I believe it again relates back to the rankings of the clans in this situation.

If a top 5 clan only barely wins against a 15-20 clan, that's going to reflect worse for them than it will for the lower ranked clan.

I think.

[Dako]

A quick vote would be fine, but how am I suppose to fairly calculate a war that uses a point system rather than the straight whoever wins the most wins the war? I guess we can cross that bridge when we get there.

Same way FD did - I am happy to work it out for you.

This complication is related to a more general question:

Does winning or losing a clan war make any difference per se? In other words, is a narrow vicotry only a tiny bit better than a narrow defeat?

Narrow victory gives you around 10% of the losing clan score. Then it gets multiplied on weight so you get from 2% to 4% of their score. Loosing works jsut the same, but with the minus sign.

Or at least this is how I understand algo of 400.

[FarangDemon]

Gunn217, you are doing a great job. I'm glad that our work (Gunn, jigger, jpcloet all contributed in various ways) hasn't been in vain. I'm sorry to have left you and the community hanging so long.

FYI, Gunn couldn't have done anything until I sent him the updated version of my script. The script linked to in my thread is outdated and I think broken.

I'm not sure if those types of tournaments can/should be added. The minimum games allowed is 18. FD made an exception with the ACC by dividing the final score by 2. I doubt I'll be making any exceptions like that, due mainly to the fact that I don't want to make a judgement call on how much weight things like that should have.

Actually, the min games allowed by the script is not 18. The field "Accuracy Tabulation - Min Games to include War" has 18 as default value, but this just means that the accuracy tabulation (measurement of how accurate the model's predictions of which team would win / lose) will not count wars under 18 games. So wars under 18 games will not count toward model accuracy but are still going to be used to determine ratings. Anyway, you can change that 18 to be any number you want. Every field on that page with a number in it can be changed.

However, if you or the CLA decide to only include wars of at least 18 games, that's up to you guys.

I also encourage you to come up with a policy of how to score wars where points are determined not solely on the basis of total wins. I had started thinking about it but then stopped.

Someone mentioned something about excel - the charts and ranked lists are all produced by javascript which generates html. The charts are created using the canvas element and the lists are tables. I took screenshots of both, posted them to flickr and then linked to them in my thread.

I think you, the CC community, are in good hands with Gunn here. I may come back at some point but no plans right now. Cheers!

[chemefreak]

Nice work Gunn. And FD, thank you for helping with the transition. I may not like this ranking system too much (mostly because it is super hard to understand...at least for a lawyer!) but it is really a community favorite. So thanks again to both of you.

[Teflon Kris]

This complication is related to a more general question:

Does winning or losing a clan war make any difference per se? In other words, is a narrow vicotry only a tiny bit better than a narrow defeat?

I believe it again relates back to the rankings of the clans in this situation.

If a top 5 clan only barely wins against a 15-20 clan, that's going to reflect worse for them than it will for the lower ranked clan.

I think that was a no?

Narrow victory gives you around 10% of the losing clan score. Then it gets multiplied on weight so you get from 2% to 4% of their score. Loosing works jsut the same, but with the minus sign.

And another no?

So, the alghorythm is comparing individual games won and lost, relative ranking and competitiveness (i.e. competing regularly).

But, it couldn't care less whether clan wars are won or lost. A narrow defeat is not much different to a narrow victory in the algorythms' mind. I'm sure it is in everyone else's.

[Chuuuuck]

I tend to think like an algorithm. A narrow defeat isn't much different than a narrow win. If the score is 30-30 with 1 fairly even game to go and a round of 15-2 dice decides the game. I don't think there should be a big difference in the rankings regardless of which clan won, unless there was a large difference in their relative rank.

[Teflon Kris]

I tend to think like an algorithm. A narrow defeat isn't much different than a narrow win. If the score is 30-30 with 1 fairly even game to go and a round of 15-2 dice decides the game. I don't think there should be a big difference in the rankings regardless of which clan won, unless there was a large difference in their relative rank.

Nah, if you lose a clan war then you're clan are losers.

Otherwise, no point in clan tournaments or clan wars, we may as well have occassional one-off team games between a few clan guys, randomly organised.

My clan narrowly lost a clan war recently, and we are ashamed. If we had narrowly won, we would breath a sigh of relief. The emotional difference between victory or defeat is worth several ranking points - we should be slightly lower than we are