Gun laws

[DAZMCFC]

right you can argue the toss about the gun laws of any country. the thing is this lad killed his exgirlfriend and her boyfriend. then he had 2 hours of waiting time to think of what he was going to do. where the f*ck were the police 2 hours after the first shootings. what was it with this lad he suddenly realised that "shit they are going to kill me, so f*ck it i taking a few others out with me that pissed me off before." what a fucking loony.

[Anarkistsdream]

right you can argue the toss about the gun laws of any country. the thing is this lad killed his exgirlfriend and her boyfriend. then he had 2 hours of waiting time to think of what he was going to do. where the f*ck were the police 2 hours after the first shootings. what was it with this lad he suddenly realised that "shit they are going to kill me, so f*ck it i taking a few others out with me that pissed me off before." what a fucking loony.

Now THAT makes sense... I agree with you 100%, DAZ... Where the hell WERE the cops? And, I don't know about VT, but at my college there are cameras in all the dorms... So the police should have been able to see from the cameras who did it and catch him... Having two hours after shooting someone is a bit preposterous...

That's what happens when you have Campus Police... Half-trained dipshits.

[wicked]

I'm not sure of the exact stat, but it was mentioned on a radio talk show last night that when England and Canada enacted strict gun laws, the shootings and illegal gun ownership actually INCREASED. I apologize if I get this stat not entirely correct, I'm trying to remember what was said, haven't found that stat online yet.

Someone also commented on a talk show last night, that had one person at the school been carrying a concealed weapon, they might have prevented some deaths. This is total BS. Doesn't matter what the gun laws are, NO school in their right mind would allow students and faculty to carry concealed weapons on campus. So that point is moot.

I can certainly see both sides of the gun law argument.

[Aimless]

Guiscard,

Well... okay, back tracking through that site, I found where your image is from - a public survey, versus police reports.

Since the police reports show a pretty sharp increase not reflected in the survey, I'm not sure exactly how the site is justifying the claim that the "survey is more accurate." Generally, the figures used worldwide for crime data is actual reported crimes, not survey data.

At any rate, maybe I jumped on you unnecessarily, since I see now where your image is from, but, quite frankly, I trust the official reported crime rates a lot more than any survey.

[Anarkistsdream]

Here is a great thing to watch about gun control...

And, no, I'm NOT being sarcastic...

http://www.pistolwimp.com/media/60509/

[heavycola]

It's pretty funny that people here are holding up the UK as an example of gun control "success." Tell me, what is the current rate of violent crime in London? (Not gun crime, violent crime in general.) And what was it prior to 1996? See a pattern?

School shootings like this one are tragic, but they are also a statistically insignificant blip. It is the height of utter stupidity to base policy off of single incidents like this, no matter how high-profile they are.

So you agree that these massacres are just the price you pay for your right to bear arms? I don't know if calling what happened an insignificant blip is helpful (or particularly sensitive) either. 32 people were murdered in cold blood, and if the killer had had a harder time getting hold of those guns and ammo, who knows whether it would have been so bad?

Besides, what gun control laws do you propose? Maybe a zero-weapons law pertaining to the VT campus? Oh, wait, we already have one of those.

Of course, he should have read the campus rules and regulations! Perhaps the uni is to blame for not displaying them more prominently?

Are you arguing that it is in fact not a statistical blip? Or just that it's not sensitive in your opinion to point out that fact at this time?

Well either way: if he is arguing that against the 11,000 - let me say that again, 11,000 - gun homicides in the US every year, 32 is insignificant, then that would be funny if it wasn't so fucking tragic. And what size massacre would be significant? 100, 1000?

And yes i think it's insensitive.

And still no one has answered my question - are these indiscriminate massacres just part of the price US citizens pay for their right to bear arms?

[Anarkistsdream]

No answer I give you would satisfy you, cola...

Watch the link I provided in the post right before yours... I think it will actually show you a good dynamic of hos things are here.

[2dimes]

It's allready against the law to kill people with a gun.

I can get all sorts of guns in Canada and we have fairly heavy gun restrictive laws. Carry on.

[Guiscard]

Guiscard,

Well... okay, back tracking through that site, I found where your image is from - a public survey, versus police reports.

Since the police reports show a pretty sharp increase not reflected in the survey, I'm not sure exactly how the site is justifying the claim that the "survey is more accurate." Generally, the figures used worldwide for crime data is actual reported crimes, not survey data.

At any rate, maybe I jumped on you unnecessarily, since I see now where your image is from, but, quite frankly, I trust the official reported crime rates a lot more than any survey.

Official reported crime rates? I'll tell you why I'd trust a survey over that...

I've been mugged six times, and I've been beaten probably three of those worth mentioning. At no point have I bothered to go to the police about because A) It just wastes my time having to go in and make statements B) They're NEVER gonna do anything about it in the area where I live and C) Even if they do accuse someone of it it may well resolve in me getting a further kicking. That has happened to friends who have reported crimes. I'm not saying this is right, but this is an example of why police statistics are not exactly kosher. HOWEVER, when I've answered surveys about crime I've always been honest.

OK. Well we're never gonna agree on the issue of violent crime as a whole, so why don't we look at gun crime specifically? Gun crime is one the rise, generally, but it is at NO WHERE NEAR the level that you have in the US.

Last year there were 50 gun homicides in the UK. Once incident nearly equalled this total. I can't find the overall statistics for gun homicide for the US, but its certainly a huge total compared to 50. Edit: 11,000 a year apparently. 50 vs 11,000.

Why is that, if not because of stricter gun controls?

[autoload]

I've been mugged six times, and I've been beaten probably three of those worth mentioning.

Dude, you gotta move out of the city...

[Guiscard]

Here is a great thing to watch about gun control...

And, no, I'm NOT being sarcastic...

http://www.pistolwimp.com/media/60509/

I watched the first ten minutes... Basically, it was a biased diatribe against 'pussy' gun-control advocates. Self defence is not a viable argument for me. in the UK we don't feel the need to own guns for self defence. We could, legally, but we don't. Do we all get raped and burgled every night? No.

[Guiscard]

I've been mugged six times, and I've been beaten probably three of those worth mentioning.

Dude, you gotta move out of the city...

Nah its not that bad really. Could be worse. I can't afford to live in an upmarket area, really, so I live on the edge of an estate. Most of those were when I've been pissed up and stupid enough to walk home alone at 2am. Mostly my fault really.

[The1exile]

I've been mugged six times, and I've been beaten probably three of those worth mentioning.

Dude, you gotta move out of the city...

Eh, for most people I know it seems like a price worth paying.

Of course occasionally some fucker with a knife kills soemone (happens maybe once every six months), but you're still looking at a *long* time before that reaches the scale of this massacre...

I don't think anyone will change anyones minds on gun crime, but I do like the way the UK handles it. However, I understand the right to bear arms is something in the US constitution dating back to the revolution and the minutemen, so I doubt it will be changed.

[vtmarik]

Having gun laws would have made no difference whether or not that kid got a gun.

Read my above post...

Why have we not had school shootings in the UK???

We have guns, but stricter gun laws...

Yeah, but you've also got a rash of crimes being comitted with people armed with swords haven't you?

The majority of gun crime in this country, I don't have statistics but i've watched the news enough, comes from people who either purchased stolen guns or stole guns themselves. I bet dollars to donuts that the wackjob who shot up VT was carrying a stolen weapon.


America has more problems than lax gun laws. If you watch the news and base your opinion only on the news, you'd think that if you go outside you'll die of a gunshot with a bird-flu infected bullet fired by a psychotic gay rights advocate who abuses oxycontin and worships the devil. But you look outside and all you see is the kids walking home from school.

There is a massive dichotomy between what the news presents and what day-to-day life is like in America, and that daily injection of fear and unease is what breeds psychotics like Mr. I'm-gonna-kill-32-people.

Everyone wants a gun because they all think they need a gun. If the news presented real news instead of The Snuff-Film Hour then maybe we'd see a decrease in violence. And don't call me naive when I'm saying that the media is the problem, it isn't the problem. But it certainly isn't part of the solution.

The problem is that the modern American, if you strip away the good job and the happy family, is an insecure bundle of neuroses looking for something to worry about. The main reason people are either overeating, or locking themselves in their basements with 10 locks on their door is because they are incapable of trusting their neighbor. Because if their neighbor is really nice and normal, then he must be a psycho killer like BTK or Gacy.

Want proof that we're all scared shitless in this country? Walk down any street in the US and say Hi to a random person. Just wave and say "Hello!" I guarantee that the majority's first reaction will be to jump 10 feet out of their skin before they return the hello.

Fear is the root cause of all of our problems, and we need to fix that. Let's stop concentrating on symptoms of the disease and attack the root cause. We aren't obsessed with guns, or violence, nor are we naturally inclined to cruelty and malice. Americans are afraid for no good reason, and that's why everything frightens us.

Sure psycho killers are the exception to the rule because they like to kill, but the average, gun-owning American owns a gun because he's afraid that someone's going to try and mug him, someone's gonna rob his workplace, or someone's gonna break in and hurt his family.

In 2003 there were 49,639 violent deaths in the United States. That seems like a big number, until you see that the population of the US is somewhere in the 300 million range. That's 0.01% of the population.
(Death stats: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5526a1.htm)

Sure, one death is too many, but we need to start attacking the root of the problem, this irrational fear that Americans have that they're in imminent danger of being a victim. Gun laws aren't going to fix the fact that we're all scared shitless.

[Guiscard]

I've been mugged six times, and I've been beaten probably three of those worth mentioning.

Dude, you gotta move out of the city...

Eh, for most people I know it seems like a price worth paying.

Of course occasionally some fucker with a knife kills soemone (happens maybe once every six months), but you're still looking at a *long* time before that reaches the scale of this massacre...

I don't think anyone will change anyones minds on gun crime, but I do like the way the UK handles it. However, I understand the right to bear arms is something in the US constitution dating back to the revolution and the minutemen, so I doubt it will be changed.

Glad you agree. To be honest, I doubt they're gonna change either but its just depressing really. Its depressing to see guns ingrained into a country in the way they are in the US and its depressing that, no matter what tragedy happens, people still roll out the same arguments when there are perfectly good examples of countries worldwide where gun ownership is more strictly regulated and there is a lower rate of gun crime.

[2dimes]

I've been mugged six times, and I've been beaten probably three of those worth mentioning.

Dude, you gotta move out of the city...

I was thinking he should carry a gun.

[Guiscard]

Sure, one death is too many, but we need to start attacking the root of the problem, this irrational fear that American's have that they're in imminent danger of being a victim. Gun laws aren't going to fix the fact that we're all scared shitless.

I certainly agree with you that it is very much to do with a 'gun culture' in America, and what the people arguing against gun laws in this thread have shown is just how ingrained it seems to be.

I do, however, think stricter legislation DOES at least contribute towards changing that culture. If it is harder to own a gun and the sentences for illegally owning one are stricter then less people will buy guns simply because of the effort it takes. In the UK you have to apply for a license, which is a pretty time consuming procedure, renew it regularly, face check ups etc. etc. Many people who would think about buying a gun won't bother because they can just get a baseball bat and stick it by the side of the bed instead.

its not a complete solution, but in my opinion it would do a hell of a lot to change the mindset of pro-gun people. Not gonna happen, though, with the significant gun lobby in the US but we can hope

[vtmarik]

I've been mugged six times, and I've been beaten probably three of those worth mentioning.

Dude, you gotta move out of the city...

I was thinking he should carry a gun.

He doesn't need a gun, he needs to learn Judo.

[2dimes]

I stole this from the VT thread.

A resident alien card is a "green card". The cards haven't been green in like 40 years... they are now a pink/peach color now. I was unaware that resident aliens could buy pistols... I thought that only US citizens could.

I hope this guy was kidding when he wrote this.

I have friends that are from Canada and have purchased hand guns and or have been given hand guns while working or visiting some places in the USA.

So there is no legal need to be a citizen. I believe you do need to be some form of permanent resident of the states that have them to hold a concealed permit.

[Guiscard]

I've been mugged six times, and I've been beaten probably three of those worth mentioning.

Dude, you gotta move out of the city...

I was thinking he should carry a gun.

That's the thing, you see. Call me a pussy liberal, but if I get jacked up and have a weapon on me that's just one more thing which could be used to harm me. If I have nothing, they're not gonna risk stabbing me because of the increased chance of getting caught and the punishment they'd receive, same if he had a gun. If I, however, pull out a knife or a gun then that almost gives him a license to use whatever weapon he's carrying! PLUS when people start carrying knives and guns for protection on the streets, criminals start carrying BIGGER knives and BIGGER guns and using them before you get a chance to use yours.

I'm very much involved in the UK hip-hop scene as a DJ and Producer, and I go to a lot of shows and events. Although there is a significant movement to get rid of gun and knife crime, there are still guys who rap and talk about weapons and needing to carry them. Its a big issue and I've seen what it can do. I know people who've been knifed because they had a knife for self defence. Now if we had the same sort of gun culture they have in the US, things would be a hell of a lot worse. Instead of one guy getting knifed it'd be six guys getting shot.

[vtmarik]

Sure, one death is too many, but we need to start attacking the root of the problem, this irrational fear that American's have that they're in imminent danger of being a victim. Gun laws aren't going to fix the fact that we're all scared shitless.

I certainly agree with you that it is very much to do with a 'gun culture' in America, and what the people arguing against gun laws in this thread have shown is just how ingrained it seems to be.

I do, however, think stricter legislation DOES at least contribute towards changing that culture. If it is harder to own a gun and the sentences for illegally owning one are stricter then less people will buy guns simply because of the effort it takes. In the UK you have to apply for a license, which is a pretty time consuming procedure, renew it regularly, face check ups etc. etc. Many people who would think about buying a gun won't bother because they can just get a baseball bat and stick it by the side of the bed instead.

its not a complete solution, but in my opinion it would do a hell of a lot to change the mindset of pro-gun people. Not gonna happen, though, with the significant gun lobby in the US but we can hope

It's not a gun culture. We've got a population of 300 Million people who all think that the other 299,999,999 are out to get them. We're a culture of victims.

Gun laws are only going to restrict the legal sale of guns, it's only going to create an even greater market and profit margin for the illegal sale of guns. If you make it illegal, people will still want it they'll just be more desperate for it.

Let's call it like it is and come to terms with the fact that it's not the fault of guns that our nation is the most violent. It's because we're all amped up on fear and the need to feel like a victim. Whether a person is suing someone for getting offended over a statement, or buying a gun to protect themselves from the rest of the world, it's the same root cause.

If we're ever going to evolve as a nation and grow as individuals we have to come to terms with our lust for being victimized.

[2dimes]

I've been mugged six times, and I've been beaten probably three of those worth mentioning.

Dude, you gotta move out of the city...

I was thinking he should carry a gun.

He doesn't need a gun, he needs to learn Judo.

JUDO CHOP!!

[Guiscard]

I'm 6'4, not exactly skinny (but not a whole lotta muscle either). Any kind of Judo Chop when drunk isn't gonna work against two or three lads. It would mainly involve me falling over, I'd imagine.

[2dimes]

Hire a sober guy with skills to tail you?

[vtmarik]

I'm 6'4, not exactly skinny (but not a whole lotta muscle either). Any kind of Judo Chop when drunk isn't gonna work against two or three lads. It would mainly involve me falling over, I'd imagine.

That's what the grapples are for. It's all about using the enemy's momentum against them.

And if Ye Olde Judoe Choppe doesn't work , well, you can always learn Krav Maga.

If it's good enough for Israeli Special Forces than by god it's good for anyone.