Sweden [13 Feb 2012] V6 p.1&3 Feedback wanted

[Roberth]

Map Name: Sweden
Mapmaker(s): Roberth
Number of Territories: 39
Special Features: • Airports that connects the whole map. • Two cities in each zone which if hold gives +1.
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: The first map of only Sweden (it might be a small country in population but large in area and mighty in influence). It will be a tricky map where it's hard hide in a corner and defend from there. The four airports connect the elongated map.

Version 6:
• Removed the mountains between Lappland and Jämtland
• Moved some text on the mini-map

Click image to enlarge.

Version 5:

Spoiler

• Made the city icons smaller
• Clarified the "arrow" on the city icons that needed it
• Move "Southern Norrland" to the other side of the mini map
• Remove the circles and moved some names a little
• Moved the legend up a bit
Tested adding textures on the land, but that just made the map look more cluttered.

Click image to enlarge.

Version 4:

Spoiler

• Added impassables to the legend
• Split Götaland into 2 zones, Götaland West and Götaland East
• Added 2 new cities, so each zone has two cities in it

Click image to enlarge.

Version 3:

Spoiler

• Removed boarder between Värmland and Västergötaland
• Changed N. Norrland to +3
• Changed boarder between Värmland, Västmanland and Uppland
• Added mountains/impassables

Click image to enlarge.

Version 2:

Spoiler

• Added cities and city bonuses
• Split Norrland into 2 bonus zones (Northern Norrland and Southern Norrland)
• Smoothen borders
• Added a soft stroke to the army circles
• Enlarged and zoomed the map
• Moved some names
• Changed text in the legend

Click image to enlarge.

Version 1:

Spoiler

Click image to enlarge.

I think this map will create some interesting gameplay because it is so elongated and not so wide, but still a player is not easily able to turtle up and hide in a corner. This because of many regions has border to many other regions. Thought it's so far from Skåne to Lappland, they can easily travel and attack trough the four airports spaced out in the map, that can all attack each other and the region they are on.

To do in the next update:

Spoiler

• Make better sea routes

[natty dread]

Well that's a very nice first draft! Bravo!

Graphically, I mean. Nice clean style, nice colours... the land outline looks very sleak. The borders need some attention but overall it looks very clean and nice.

Gameplay needs work, though. Only 3 bonus areas? 29 territories? You're going to need more of both. More territories, and split them into more bonus areas.

What I'd suggest is making the map larger, and rotating it a bit to the right so that the playable area goes from corner to corner. Then figuring out a way to split more territories from the ones you have. Perhaps use some major cities or municipalities. Then figure out a way to split the bonus areas.

I would aim at at least 42 territories and 5-6 bonus areas.

[Flapcake]

Very nice

I also think that you should enlarge it up a bit and do some more bonus areas, and more territories, Finland and the Baltic countries I think you can cut off to enlarge your very cool map

[Roberth]

Thank you for your kind comments and that you like the visual style of the map. I wanted to make it simple with style.

Gameplay needs work, though. Only 3 bonus areas? 29 territories? You're going to need more of both. More territories, and split them into more bonus areas.

I also think that you should enlarge it up a bit and do some more bonus areas, and more territories, Finland and the Baltic countries I think you can cut off to enlarge your very cool map

Yea, I wondered if it might be to few. But what do you say about this change:
* Split the Lappland region into two. (North Lappland & South Lappland)
* Split the bonus zone Norrland into two. (North Norrland & South Norrland)
* Add 8 cities to the map, 2 in every bonus zone, and give a small bonus to a player that holds both cities in a zone.

That creates 9 more regions, that makes a total of 38.
Also 5 more zones (South Norrland + 4 x city bonuses), that makes 8 total.

How does this change sound?

[isaiah40]

Gameplay needs work, though. Only 3 bonus areas? 29 territories? You're going to need more of both. More territories, and split them into more bonus areas.

Why more than the 29 territories? This map meets the minimum requirements for the number of territories. Now you could split Norlland in two. That would give us 5 bonus regions which includes the airports. This gameplay is simplistic - like Luxembourg - the graphics look really good for a first draft, ready to play now! I say if Roberth wants to keep it this way, or splits Norlland, let him, as I think this is fine either way!!

[koontz1973]

This gameplay is simplistic - like Luxembourg

We need a few map maps that are small like Luxembourg and Doodle. They do make for an interesting game.

Go with the split of Norrland and put in the cities or keep with the airports. But try not to be bogged down by requests of more territs. Not sure if you have played Kingdom of Denmark yet, but I would suggest you go and look at that thread (in the final forge now) and read it completely. This will give you some ideas on what to expect as they both started out very similar in look.

[natty dread]

We need a few map maps that are small like Luxembourg and Doodle. They do make for an interesting game.

How? What's interesting about luxemburg or doodle?

Why more than the 29 territories? This map meets the minimum requirements for the number of territories.

Nothing against small maps per se. It would be different if this map had unique and interesting gameplay, something that brings something new to the small map genre. But this is a classic-gameplay map, pure vanilla. What's to be gained from another tiny standard-gameplay map? We already have those, the experience is the same on each of them with little variations...

Yea, I wondered if it might be to few. But what do you say about this change:
* Split the Lappland region into two. (North Lappland & South Lappland)
* Split the bonus zone Norrland into two. (North Norrland & South Norrland)
* Add 8 cities to the map, 2 in every bonus zone, and give a small bonus to a player that holds both cities in a zone.

That creates 9 more regions, that makes a total of 38.
Also 5 more zones (South Norrland + 4 x city bonuses), that makes 8 total.

How does this change sound?

The number of regions sounds good. But you'd still only have 4 bonus regions, and the city bonuses would just be overlapping with those. The sizes of the bonus regions would be way too large, with 38 regions they'd be about 9,5 territories average... this means that no one would be able to secure and hold a bonus, other than the city bonuses, but even those would have difficult time expanding, making for a stale gameplay...

I'd still say you should split the map to at least 5 areas.

[koontz1973]

We need a few map maps that are small like Luxembourg and Doodle. They do make for an interesting game.

How? What's interesting about luxemburg or doodle?

Lots.

They also make a nice change from all of the larger maps I play and see no problem with the smaller maps.

[DiM]

We need a few map maps that are small like Luxembourg and Doodle. They do make for an interesting game.

How? What's interesting about luxemburg or doodle?

Lots.

They also make a nice change from all of the larger maps I play and see no problem with the smaller maps.

aside from the fact that they are glorified russian roulette maps there's nothing interesting about doodle or luxembourg. don't get me wrong that's not a bad thing. if people want to play that type of games with 99% luck and 1% strategy it's up to them. but that's a whole different subject.

back on topic.
i'm surprised to see the non playing terits having such cool flowy borders and the playing terits having awful pixelated ones. this definitely needs fixing.

[Oneyed]

nice. Roberth I assume you are from Sweden, so you know your country the best. I like as you did it - by reality. I think go with this, do not divide Lappland, also not needed to divide Norrland - both are off from reality. (or go for this, but then you can make any scifi sweden map ).

you also would use any impassables (rivers, woods).

cities are good idea. they should make several bonuses:
+? for 3, 4, 5 cities...
+? for ? cities in land...

and about small maps. hm, sometimes is very pleasing to play clear and easy gameplay

Oneyed

[natty dread]

I like as you did it - by reality. I think go with this, do not divide Lappland, also not needed to divide Norrland - both are off from reality.

Reality does not necessarily make for good gameplay. Gameplay must always come first, even if you have to divide or merge territories or adjust borders to do it. People do not come to CC to learn geography, they come to play good maps.

[Roberth]

The number of regions sounds good. But you'd still only have 4 bonus regions, and the city bonuses would just be overlapping with those. The sizes of the bonus regions would be way too large, with 38 regions they'd be about 9,5 territories average... this means that no one would be able to secure and hold a bonus, other than the city bonuses, but even those would have difficult time expanding, making for a stale gameplay...

I'd still say you should split the map to at least 5 areas.

Ok, approximately how many regions should a zone contain?

If I use cities on this map. Wouldn't the city bonus be a start to take to continue to conquer the whole zone and that's why the zones can contain many regions?

i'm surprised to see the non playing terits having such cool flowy borders and the playing terits having awful pixelated ones. this definitely needs fixing.

That's because I wanted to make a difference between the playable borders and the non-playable. Should the playable be more flowy?

nice. Roberth I assume you are from Sweden, so you know your country the best. I like as you did it - by reality. I think go with this, do not divide Lappland, also not needed to divide Norrland - both are off from reality. (or go for this, but then you can make any scifi sweden map ).

you also would use any impassables (rivers, woods).

I also like small maps! =)
Yes, I'm from Sweden and that's why I wanted to make a "real" map of Sweden with as real regions and borders. But I think in some ways you need to comply with gameplay first. But I still want this map to be as real as possible and definitely contain all regions there is in Sweden.

[natty dread]

That's because I wanted to make a difference between the playable borders and the non-playable. Should the playable be more flowy?

They should not be pixelated. You can make them different from the non-playable borders without making them pixelated.

[Roberth]

Version 2:
• Added cities and city bonuses
• Split Norrland into 2 bonus zones (Northern Norrland and Southern Norrland)
• Smoothen borders
• Added a soft stroke to the army circles
• Enlarged and zoomed the map
• Moved some names
• Changed text in the legend

Click image to enlarge.

[Industrial Helix]

I'm liking it. It's simple yet should be fun to play. I like the reality of territories AND cities.

It's a great first draft, for a newcomer especially. I hope to see more maps from you( but finish Sweden first).

I feel like Red Zone should be worth 3 armies, considering you gotta defend at three points, plus take out all those guys on the four territories, the two cities and the airport. That way the South doesn't dominate the map and the North is still worthwhile.

And I'm gonna sticky this to see if it catches everyone's attention more quickly.

[natty dread]

I like the reality of territories AND cities.

Reality, reality... Remember IH what happened with Korea when we tried to do everything with reality in mind?

We ended up with a map that, at first, was totally unbalanced, because you were trying to make the gameplay reflect reality, and hard to read and unclear, because I tried to make the graphics realistically faded and old-looking.

The map ended up fine after some heavy tweaking in beta, but I think that should be a good lesson for all further map projects, historical or otherwise... it's fine to pursue realism, but gameplay balance and readability should always be first priority, and realism cannot be more important than those. Any time you have to choose between those things, realism needs to lose.


Anyway, back on this map... the bonuses are still way too large for a map this size. The only feasible bonus area is Northern Norrland, the others, well, look at the regions and borders...

S. Norrland: 7 regions, 5 borders
Swealand: 9 regions, 7 borders
Götaland: 14 regions, 5 borders

Basically, every game played on the map would go like this: there's a scramble for North Norrland, whoever has the best drop and dice will get it, and then that player will win because the other bonuses are way too hard.

Something needs to be done... I'd say you should split Götaland to 2 bonuses. Maybe Swealand as well.

[Oneyed]

Something needs to be done... I'd say you should split Götaland to 2 bonuses. Maybe Swealand as well.

agreed. when you split Norrland to two bonuses (out of reality), you could also Gotaland. Svealand could be one big bonus in the middle. any impassable would helps, there are too much borders now, I think.

Oneyed

[Roberth]

Anyway, back on this map... the bonuses are still way too large for a map this size. The only feasible bonus area is Northern Norrland, the others, well, look at the regions and borders...

S. Norrland: 7 regions, 5 borders
Swealand: 9 regions, 7 borders
Götaland: 14 regions, 5 borders

Basically, every game played on the map would go like this: there's a scramble for North Norrland, whoever has the best drop and dice will get it, and then that player will win because the other bonuses are way too hard.

Something needs to be done... I'd say you should split Götaland to 2 bonuses. Maybe Swealand as well.

Yea, I agree that Götaland can be to big.

But the zones are smaller than you describe them to be. As the legend say "Airports and cities are not a part of the above zones". So:

N. Norrland has 4 regions
S. Norrland has 5 regions
Svealand has 6 regions
Götaland has 10 regions

So I think all zones, except Götaland, is ok in size.
But you're right in that there are to many boarders. That could be changed, as Oneyed sad, by adding impassables. I'll put that on my to do list.

[natty dread]

Ok then, split Götaland in two, 4 region and 6 region bonuses. Then add some impassables.

But before you do that, I have to tell you, you're going to need to reorganize your image. With the current layout, the small version of the map will be too cluttered - the large is already somewhat cluttered, with some borders being hard to see.

So here's what to do: rotate the country about 20 degrees clockwise (to the right), then zoom in to it so that the edges of the country match the edges of the image. This way you'll have more space for things. It will mean you'll have to redraw your map, but it's better to do it now rather than when you've spend weeks working on your current image...

[Flapcake]

I feel like Red Zone should be worth 3 armies, considering you gotta defend at three points

I agree

looking better and better

[Roberth]

Ok then, split Götaland in two, 4 region and 6 region bonuses. Then add some impassables.

Would spliting Götaland into two reagions make tha south of the map more balansed? Maybe so there will be a struggle for N. Norrland and one for West Götaland and that those two players might the be the stronges moving forward?

So here's what to do: rotate the country about 20 degrees clockwise (to the right), then zoom in to it so that the edges of the country match the edges of the image. This way you'll have more space for things. It will mean you'll have to redraw your map, but it's better to do it now rather than when you've spend weeks working on your current image...

I don't want to rotate the map. I think that by doing so it will change the feeling of the map being of sweden. Because this way is the way it's being shown on all maps. If it is to cluttered, then I'll have to find another way to solve that.

I feel like Red Zone should be worth 3 armies, considering you gotta defend at three points

I agree

looking better and better

Thank you! Yea, that might be a good idea.

[natty dread]

I don't want to rotate the map. I think that by doing so it will change the feeling of the map being of sweden. Because this way is the way it's being shown on all maps.

That's simply untrue. Maps can have different projections, and many maps are slightly rotated to fit the area in question better to the available space.

The shape of the country you're trying to depict is very awkward for a CC map, as it makes for a lot of scrolling. Furthermore, since your large version is already this cluttered, and the army numbers will be the same size on the small as they are on the large, you need to take in account that the small version will inevitably be even more cluttered. Some cluttered areas on a map are fine, but not when the whole map is unclear because of it and players have a hard time seeing the connections.

I don't really see any other options for rotating the map, unless you find some map projection that reduces the clutter, or find a way to distort the shape of it to the same effect.

[Roberth]

Version 3:
• Removed boarder between Värmland and Västergötaland
• Changed N. Norrland to +3
• Changed boarder between Värmland, Västmanland and Uppland
• Added mountains/impassables

Click image to enlarge.

Questions:
• Should I ad a impassable between Södermanland and Östergötland?
• Should I ad a impassable between Gästrikland and Uppland?

[natty dread]

Ok, here's your current map at 80% size, with some army numbers on:

Click image to enlarge.

As you can see, it's very unclear and cluttered at some places. Army numbers don't fit in all places. This is the problem you're going to need to solve. And it's better to do it now rather than when you've spent a lot of time working on your current map image.

[Roberth]

That's simply untrue. Maps can have different projections, and many maps are slightly rotated to fit the area in question better to the available space.

The shape of the country you're trying to depict is very awkward for a CC map, as it makes for a lot of scrolling. Furthermore, since your large version is already this cluttered, and the army numbers will be the same size on the small as they are on the large, you need to take in account that the small version will inevitably be even more cluttered. Some cluttered areas on a map are fine, but not when the whole map is unclear because of it and players have a hard time seeing the connections.

I don't really see any other options for rotating the map, unless you find some map projection that reduces the clutter, or find a way to distort the shape of it to the same effect.

Ok, yea, not all maps are at the same rotation. But most of them picture the countries in the same rotation. And I for the most want to keep this rotation of the map. If there's no other solution, then let's rotate the map.