[Abandoned] War of Wizards

[natty dread]

Sorry, but I'm going to wait to hear some more opinions about this. So far no one else has had problems understanding what the Light/dark bonuses refer to, to my knowledge. If people generally agree that it is necessary to clarify this part of the map more then I will make the according changes.

So in other words, your opinion has been noted, but I will wait to hear more feedback on this.

As for the towers, they will likely be redrawn at some point. In fact I believe a lot of the graphics of this map will be changed/improved somewhat after the gameplay is fixed in place.

[J_Indr]

As for the towers, they will likely be redrawn at some point. In fact I believe a lot of the graphics of this map will be changed/improved somewhat after the gameplay is fixed in place.

Then, just as an addition to what I said above, here is how I think towers could be changed:

Since there are different sorts of magic surrounding white and dark tower, I quickly need to see which are which. Unless you'd be willing to make slightly different, i.e. just faintly visible, shading of the territories in a relevant distance around the tower, this needs to be done by the shading of the tower.

You could have a silhouette of a tower or a neutral coloured tower in the legend (even now it seems more brownish than those on the map itself!) and then have lighter and darker shaded towers on the game plan. Or you can show both lighter and darker towers in the legend, separating them with "/" or "OR". Since you use "+" for showing that you need to have both, it should be quite clear that you don't need to have both dark and light tower to trigger the bonus.

Feel free to wait for further opinion. This is what I personally think would improve the map.

[natty dread]

Heirn Tower/Wizard has a very big advantage over Tamar wizard/tower. Heirn can get the shrine and village long before Tamar can get the unicorn/gold bonus. Heirn has to go through 12 neutrals to receive the shrine village bonus. Heirn now has approxiamately 7 men per turn plus the +2 auto on the village while Tamar is getting the minimum of 5. In a couple of more turns Heirn now has Spirit guard and receiving 10 men per turn while Tamar is fighting to get 5. I suggest swapping Mana5 and S06 around. In this way it will give Tamar an opportunity to at least have a fighting chance.

Swapping Mana5 away from Tamar is not a really good idea, the Mana fountain after all gives an instant bonus so depriving Tamar of it would do more harm to him than good I think...

What if I move the unicorn from Ta08 to Ta09 so Tamar has fewer neutrals to get to the gold and shrine?

Isaiah, got any input on this?

[isaiah40]

Um, yea, sorry forgot about this. Anyways, looking at this again, how about moving the shrine at S06 to TA5? Yes Tamar tower will have to go through 2 more neutrals to get the bonus. Not exactly the same as Heirm Tower, but at least Tamar will have a chance. You can then leave the unicorn where it is to help block Heirm a little from getting the second shrine.

[natty dread]

Um, yea, sorry forgot about this. Anyways, looking at this again, how about moving the shrine at S06 to TA5? Yes Tamar tower will have to go through 2 more neutrals to get the bonus. Not exactly the same as Heirm Tower, but at least Tamar will have a chance. You can then leave the unicorn where it is to help block Heirm a little from getting the second shrine.

But the idea sort of is that the wizards have to compete over the same shrine, or go over to the dark side lands for other shrines... that's how it is on the Northern side too, and if I give both wizards their own shrine on the south side, then they have a clear advantage over the northern guys... ugh, this is giving me a headache now.

How about I just rearrange some of the Tamar & Heim regions so that both wizards have equal neutrals to the Gold & Shrine?

[isaiah40]

That may work. Tamar and Heim are the only ones that are grossly unbalanced right now. All the rest are a few neutrals off from each other, so they are fine IMO.

[iancanton]

i agree that heim has a big advantage, not only in the arrangement of the bonus icons, but also because every other tower apart from tamar (whose position is probably inferior, as isaiah has already postulated) and oloch is so far away that heim tower cannot be attacked easily. to remedy heim being hard to reach, is it possible to widen the heim river, move the s06 shrine to s04 and move the s04 boat to s06? also, all towers are 2 steps away from the nearest bonus, except heim, who is only one away. swapping he07 with mana6 is an easy fix.

the other change i'd like to see is for the n04 shrine to move to me06 to provide some protection for merin tower (especially from aris tower, but also from forces coming via the n05 boat) if desired or an alternative bonus to mana2 if combined with deyr village. merin is fairly easily reached from most towers except heim.

ian.

[natty dread]

is it possible to widen the heim river, move the s06 shrine to s04 and move the s04 boat to s06?

It's doable... a bit of a pain in the ass, but doable...

also, all towers are 2 steps away from the nearest bonus, except heim, who is only one away. swapping he07 with mana6 is an easy fix.

Actually, that'd bring the shrine even closer to Heim, and that won't do... I'll just redraw some regions to make the distance 2.

the other change i'd like to see is for the n04 shrine to move to me06 to provide some protection for merin tower (especially from aris tower, but also from forces coming via the n05 boat) if desired or an alternative bonus to mana2 if combined with deyr village. merin is fairly easily reached from most towers except heim.

Sure, that can be done.

[Victor Sullivan]

*yawns and stretches* Oh, shit! I forgot to follow-up on this

I'll be back after your next update, I'm sure. Feel free to bother me via PM. That's generally the best way to get me to post, ha.

-Sully

[iancanton]

also, all towers are 2 steps away from the nearest bonus, except heim, who is only one away. swapping he07 with mana6 is an easy fix.

Actually, that'd bring the shrine even closer to Heim, and that won't do... I'll just redraw some regions to make the distance 2.

trees between mana6 and he02 will do it.

azael is the only other tower that has only one step to the nearest bonus. taking just three regions secures an additional bonus of +3. trees between az02 and mana8 will help to reduce this quick advantage.

ian.

[natty dread]

Sorry I've been lagging on updates with this one... I've been thinking about some possible graphical changes, but haven't been able to just get to work on them...

I'll try to have an update posted as soon as.

[Victor Sullivan]

'Look forward to it

-Sully

[natty dread]

Ok, finally got an update done. There was so much stuff to do, if I forgot anything that I've promised to do, just let me know...

You may also notice the borders were completely redrawn. I tried to go for a bit more organic feel for them, to make them look less artificial, which IMO is often a problem on fictional maps...

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

Made a bit more touch-up to borders, and moved the gold from Az7 to Az9.

Click image to enlarge.

[natty dread]

For the fans, here's some original artwork done for the map. You can find all of these on the map in a smaller size...

[natty dread]

So hey what's next for the gameplay?

[natty dread]

Ian, Isaiah, anyone...?

I'm waiting for more gameplay feedback. What's next to change? I'm open to all suggestions here.

[isaiah40]

Sorry natty, I sort of forgot about this. I have put a call out to Ian for another look see. I'm still not convinced about Tamar Tower as I believe it is still the weakest tower on the map. That being said I'll discuss it more with Ian.

[Victor Sullivan]

Frankly, in this kind of situation, it's going to be difficult to get everything right this time through. I fully expect changes aplenty in beta. At any rate, we should still have a good foundational gameplay structure, of course, and I don't think we're too far.

I think something as simple as moving Mana5 to Ta06 would give Tamar a well enough bump. IMO, Merin is the one that's screwed. It doesn't have any real accessible resource pairs (even the Mana Fount is a bit more than a hop and a skip away), plus it has to deal with Aris, since Aris can only go toward Merin. I still think Aris needs an alternate route.

-Sully

[natty dread]

moving Mana5 to Ta06 would give Tamar a well enough bump

All the mana founts are at distance 3 from their tower... well except for Aris which is 4. Anyway I'm not convinced that moving the mana fount closer would give a sufficient "bump", it just means 2 less neutrals to go through to get the same bonus...

IMO, Merin is the one that's screwed. It doesn't have any real accessible resource pairs (even the Mana Fount is a bit more than a hop and a skip away), plus it has to deal with Aris, since Aris can only go toward Merin. I still think Aris needs an alternate route.

There is an alternate route for Aris, the ferry at N05. And Merin has a mana fount in an easily defensible place, along with a shrine nearby... to me it seems Merin's got nothing to worry about.

[Victor Sullivan]

moving Mana5 to Ta06 would give Tamar a well enough bump

All the mana founts are at distance 3 from their tower... well except for Aris which is 4. Anyway I'm not convinced that moving the mana fount closer would give a sufficient "bump", it just means 2 less neutrals to go through to get the same bonus...

True, but getting a slight head start would help. And I think the relative sparsity of his 'dominion', if you will, could leave him under-the-radar enough to secure it. Moving the Mana Fount closer (even to Ta02) could help him get a head start on this... It's something to think about at least.

Alternatively, perhaps adding a shrine to S01 would do well? It seems to me that would put Tamar at a relatively even standing with Heim.

There is an alternate route for Aris, the ferry at N05. And Merin has a mana fount in an easily defensible place, along with a shrine nearby... to me it seems Merin's got nothing to worry about.

I disagree. N05 really isn't that valid of an alternate route, as the Aris player would go toward Amun and the gold at Me08, it seems to me. What if you moved the ferry from N05 to N03?

-Sully

[natty dread]

True, but getting a slight head start would help. And I think the relative sparsity of his 'dominion', if you will, could leave him under-the-radar enough to secure it. Moving the Mana Fount closer (even to Ta02) could help him get a head start on this... It's something to think about at least.

Yeah I don't know, I'll wait to hear what Isaiah suggests about it.

What if you moved the ferry from N05 to N03?

I can do that.

[isaiah40]

Alternatively, perhaps adding a shrine to S01 would do well? It seems to me that would put Tamar at a relatively even standing with Heim.
-Sully

This would work, and you can leave the manna Fount where it is. This will give Tamar an equal chance.

[natty dread]

Alternatively, perhaps adding a shrine to S01 would do well? It seems to me that would put Tamar at a relatively even standing with Heim.
-Sully

This would work, and you can leave the manna Fount where it is. This will give Tamar an equal chance.

But this would mean the south side would have one more shrine than the north side.

Actually, when I look at it, I really don't see how Tamar is at a disadvantage. Tamar has:

- Mana fount at distance 3 (+1)
- Village at distance 3 (+2)
- Unicorn at distance 2, Gold at distance 4 (+2)

When you compare it to Heim, who has:

- Mana fount at 3 (+1)
- Village at 4 (+2)
- Shrine at distance 4 (+2 with village)

They seem pretty equal to me. True, with the 2nd spell Heim can get an extra +3 from the Shrine, but the Shrine is also contested with Tamar, who will be right next to it after he takes the unicorn + gold. And Tamar can also get his own shrine easily via the ferry route.

So can someone explain to me the reasoning why Tamar is weak?

[natty dread]

Seriously guys, please tell me why you think Tamar is at disadvantage, what makes him weaker than others. Because I have a hard time seeing it, honestly. If we know why he's weaker then it could be easier to figure out a good solution for it.