Americans

[Iz Man]

That's good to hear YOU wouldn't turn tail & run.
Remember, you were attacked.
7-July-05 ring a bell? I know reportedly by Taliban /Al Qaeda members so your point is still valid. Good for you.

I know there are good stand-up Brits willing to fight. It is now apparent, from other's remarks here, that there are those that will turn tail & run because of an attack or threat thereof.

Spain pulled out because they were bombed.
That's cowardice.

[Guiscard]

7-July-05 ring a bell? I know reportedly by Taliban /Al Qaeda members so your point is still valid. Good for you.

Ok idiot... I'll spell some things out for your apparently completely un-educated self:

The TALIBAN were an ultra-orthodox Sunni Muslim regime who ruled in Afghanistan from 1996 until 2001. They have never perpetrated a terrorists act on foreign soil. They are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from...

AL-QAEDA which is an loosely knit alliance of militant terrorist organisations who have claimed responsibility for the London bombings with the purpose of convincing the UK to stop their support for US foreign policy in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The reason the US invaded Afghanistan and ousted the Taliban was that they refused to let the US extradite Bin Laden, who claimed responsibility for the 9/11 attacks. We're not at war with Al-qaeda. We never can be. They're an underground terrorist organisation, not a nation or a regime.

I do actually agree, to an extent, with the war if Afghanistan, in that it took away an element of safety and support for terrorists, but why am I a coward for exercising the democratic right of dissent? I do not, however, agree with the war in Iraq. It was perpetrated under false circumstances and has been conducted appallingly. Titanic was saying the same thing as me: Just because we've been the victim of a terrorist attack doesn't mean we should fall blindly and patriotically behind US foreign policy aims. Fear is a potent weapon, utlisied by both terrorists and our governments, and I would argue that those who give in to fear and support mindless and immoral hegemonic pursuits under the guise of 'global policing' are the cowards! A terrorist attack happens and you lose all form of rational thought, debate and understanding - You already think the Taliban and Al-qaeda are the same thing...

And as for Spain, if you read the context you'll see that I used it as an example of how extremists are not at war with the West as a whole. If they were,they would not have been satisfied with simply stopping Spanish support for US foreign policy. there haven't been atacks on Sweden or France have there? Why? Because they don't bow down to US demands right left and centre. The specific aim of the attack was to stop Spanish support, and it worked. I didn't say I believed it was the right thing to do, its just an example of what Islamic extremists have as their major cause at the moment.

[Jucdor]

You are such a fucking bitch, just as soon as I start thinking that the people from the Uk aren't so bad, that some of you guys are pretty chill, and not like the rest of the Euro trash, you have to come along and f*ck up my perception of everything. First of all, the USA is, and has been the greatest country in the world. I don't need your confirmation that we are the strongest, that's a fucking given. That's why we basically own you guys and you do what we tell you to do.

Well let's see. Economically Finland is more competetive than the USA, we're the least corrupted country in the whole world, our people are second happiest people in the world right after the Danish and I don't even start to compare civil rights & level of democrazy, because we're light-years ahead of your two-party system that would really need to be updated to this millenium. And we have a very good chance of keeping our success as our students have been #1 in the PISA tests twice in a row. Sure our 5,3 million people don't count much for power politics, but then again I'd rather live in a country that values more its brains and heart than muscles.

But anyway, you made this into a contest. Not me. I have nothing against Americans. In Hattrick there are many smart Americans I enjoy talking with a lot and they've made me understand your country a lot better. But the key word is through conversation, not through bashing how great ones own nation is and how pathetic the others are. If I say your country sucks I think you have a pretty bad self-esteem if you take that as a personal insult and lower yourself into my level or even lower. However I said no such thing.

There is nothing wrong with patriotism as long as people keep it to themselves. But when one has the urge to keep on telling(yelling?) others how much they love their country, how much better they think their country is compared to others or pledge allegiance to the flag then it's becoming more of a problem than a nice and healthy thing.

[mr. incrediball]

america, britain, canada, iraq... jesus i'll be glad when i'm an intern in Tokyo and all this will be behind me

[Iz Man]

We're not at war with Al-qaeda. We never can be. They're an underground terrorist organisation, not a nation or a regime.

You're proving my point.
The Taliban supported Al-Qaeda, therefore they are just as guilty as if they pulled the trigger on the bombs.
We ARE at war with Al-Qaeda. They declared war on us, and YOU BTW. Not because of U.S. foreign policy, but because we don't subscribe to their radical fundamentalism. Just because they are not a "nation or regime" doesn't mean war cannot be "declared" on them.
So by your rationale, that the Taliban & Al-Qaeda are not one in the same, than the war in Afgan is not justified? You contradict yourself.
You think Sweden & France would be safe from Islamic extremists if the U.K. & the U.S. were eliminated? Whose the idiot?
You're a coward if you run from being attacked instead of defending yourself:

Mugger: *punches Guis in face*

Guis: "I'm sorry sir, did I offend you in some way?"

Mugger: *punches Guis in face*

Guis: "Please sir, I'm sorry I have offended you. Is there a way you could help me understand why you have all this hate for me?"

Mugger: *punches Guis twice in the face and laughs at him*

Guis: "I really believe we can reach some common ground here. I just want to be freinds. Perhaps I should give you some of my money."

Mugger: *punches Guis 3 times & kicks him in the forehead*

Guis: "OK, that's starting to hurt. I really would prefer that you stop hurting me. I just want to understand you; I really really want to be your friend. Can we maybe go over there under that tree, sip some tea, and peruse my Thesaurus? I use it all the time when I post on the web"

Mugger: *Beats Guis to a oozing blob of sobbing pulp to the ground*

Mugger goes on to go look for Titanic.......

[Guiscard]

Mugger: *punches Guis in face*

Guis: "I'm sorry sir, did I offend you in some way?"

Mugger: *punches Guis in face*

Guis: "Please sir, I'm sorry I have offended you. Is there a way you could help me understand why you have all this hate for me?"

Mugger: *punches Guis twice in the face and laughs at him*

Guis: "I really believe we can reach some common ground here. I just want to be freinds. Perhaps I should give you some of my money."

Mugger: *punches Guis 3 times & kicks him in the forehead*

Guis: "OK, that's starting to hurt. I really would prefer that you stop hurting me. I just want to understand you; I really really want to be your friend. Can we maybe go over there under that tree, sip some tea, and peruse my Thesaurus? I use it all the time when I post on the web"

Mugger: *Beats Guis to a oozing blob of sobbing pulp to the ground*

Mugger goes on to go look for Titanic.......

You'll notice I haven't resorted to childish pantomime insults... Nice way to show lack of any kind of reasonable debate, logic or actual fact. there really is no point in this discussion is there.

[Iz Man]

There is nothing wrong with patriotism as long as people keep it to themselves. But when one has the urge to keep on telling(yelling?) others how much they love their country, how much better they think their country is compared to others or pledge allegiance to the flag then it's becoming more of a problem than a nice and healthy thing.

I have to agree. Do I feel the U.S. is the best place to live? Sure. My opinion, and I certainly don't feel the need (nor do I think it's right) to denegrate other nations in expressing my opinion. I haven't done that.
I have circumnavigated the globe, been to over 30 countries, lived overseas for 3 years, so I feel I have a good sense of how things are abroad. Every country has its good points, and bad. U.S. included.
I say this because I feel the rantings of Fo Sho are not helping much.
I haven't been to Finland, but I'd love to go there some day.

[Iz Man]

You'll notice I haven't resorted to childish pantomime insults... Nice way to show lack of any kind of reasonable debate, logic or actual fact. there really is no point in this discussion is there.

No, but you have resorted to name calling. "Idiot", I believe was the word used.

Can't deny the parody though, can you?
What would YOU do?
I know what I would.

[Jucdor]

I have to agree. Do I feel the U.S. is the best place to live? Sure. My opinion, and I certainly don't feel the need (nor do I think it's right) to denegrate other nations in expressing my opinion. I haven't done that.
I have circumnavigated the globe, been to over 30 countries, lived overseas for 3 years, so I feel I have a good sense of how things are abroad. Every country has its good points, and bad. U.S. included.
I say this because I feel the rantings of Fo Sho are not helping much.
I haven't been to Finland, but I'd love to go there some day.

Yes, amen to that. I was more addressing Fo Sho with that as well, because well... as you put it nicely, he does not help much.

Honestly though about Finland. If you're not into peace and quiet and beautiful nature I'm pretty sure Finland is nothing special. Sure we have a long history and a few wreckaged and fortresses, museums and so forth to see, but they're not as grand as in most other places. But if you ever have a reason to come here for other than tourist trip then I'm sure you'll get to see the better side of the country. The society, the people, the saunas and traditions.

One thing that is very very Finnish is that in this country you can't sell an apartment or a building if it doesn't have its own sauna. Saunas are a necessity, not a luxuru in this country. Out of three million saunas in the world, two million is located in Finland. But anywas, this thread wasn't about Finns, but Americans.

[Alexwales93]

Finally, someone's talking sence!
All countires have it's faults, and although there govermants try their hardest to improve on this issues, they will be always fighting a loosing battle, if there people arn't willing to follow suit.

In my opinion, the world will NEVER be perfect, untill we unite as ONE country, againts the problems that will face the earth in the future.

I'm imensley proud of being Welsh, but I must admit, I also do disagree with the war in Iraq.

[Fo Sho]

haha, sorry you guys, but I thought this was flame wars?? I have absolutely nothing against the UK, and I don't actually hate the rest of Europe. And I only started getting vehement after I had seen America being bashed. Which is always going on in multiple threads. I just got kind of fed up with it. I mean look at the start of this thread... it's this sort of pointless american stereotyping and criticizing that makes me so angry. Anyways, flame on you guys. I feel I lost all my credibility on that "Fact" rant. haha. To be fair I had already been drinking a bit with my room mate before we headed out last night. So I was feeling a bit hyphy. So anyways, sorry for getting out of hand. I still think Guiscard is an ass clown. But oh well, the world is full of them. Later you guys.

[Iz Man]

haha, sorry you guys, but I thought this was flame wars??And I only started getting vehement after I had seen America being bashed. Which is always going on in multiple threads. I just got kind of fed up with it. I mean look at the start of this thread... it's this sort of pointless american stereotyping and criticizing that makes me so angry.

Good point about this being flame wars.
I feel the same way about all the American bashing.

[Alexwales93]

I also disagree with the America bashing, I only stepped in when Fo Sho started stereo-typing Britain. I now realise that his arguments were erged on by drinking (lol).

[Fo Sho]

I also disagree with the America bashing, I only stepped in when Fo Sho started stereo-typing Britain. I now realise that his arguments were erged on by drinking (lol).

lol, politics and alcohol don't mix too well I found out. I like how half my "politcal facts" had to do with Guiscard taking it up the ass. haha.

[Alexwales93]

Lol

[Titanic]

You're proving my point.
The Taliban supported Al-Qaeda, therefore they are just as guilty as if they pulled the trigger on the bombs.
We ARE at war with Al-Qaeda. They declared war on us, and YOU BTW. Not because of U.S. foreign policy, but because we don't subscribe to their radical fundamentalism. Just because they are not a "nation or regime" doesn't mean war cannot be "declared" on them.
So by your rationale, that the Taliban & Al-Qaeda are not one in the same, than the war in Afgan is not justified? You contradict yourself.
You think Sweden & France would be safe from Islamic extremists if the U.K. & the U.S. were eliminated? Whose the idiot?

I'm sorry, do you even bother reading what people say before you reply?

Most of what you said has been answered in the past 2/3 pages.

[Fo Sho]

You're proving my point.
The Taliban supported Al-Qaeda, therefore they are just as guilty as if they pulled the trigger on the bombs.
We ARE at war with Al-Qaeda. They declared war on us, and YOU BTW. Not because of U.S. foreign policy, but because we don't subscribe to their radical fundamentalism. Just because they are not a "nation or regime" doesn't mean war cannot be "declared" on them.
So by your rationale, that the Taliban & Al-Qaeda are not one in the same, than the war in Afgan is not justified? You contradict yourself.
You think Sweden & France would be safe from Islamic extremists if the U.K. & the U.S. were eliminated? Whose the idiot?

I'm sorry, do you even bother reading what people say before you reply?

Most of what you said has been answered in the past 2/3 pages.

This is another reason I resulted to more child-like attacks. No matter what you say iz man you're not going to be able to get through to these guys. To each his own I guess.

[Iz Man]

where's that mugger when you need him......

[ritz627]

You're proving my point.
The Taliban supported Al-Qaeda, therefore they are just as guilty as if they pulled the trigger on the bombs.
We ARE at war with Al-Qaeda. They declared war on us, and YOU BTW. Not because of U.S. foreign policy, but because we don't subscribe to their radical fundamentalism. Just because they are not a "nation or regime" doesn't mean war cannot be "declared" on them.
So by your rationale, that the Taliban & Al-Qaeda are not one in the same, than the war in Afgan is not justified? You contradict yourself.
You think Sweden & France would be safe from Islamic extremists if the U.K. & the U.S. were eliminated? Whose the idiot?

I'm sorry, do you even bother reading what people say before you reply?

Most of what you said has been answered in the past 2/3 pages.

This is another reason I resulted to more child-like attacks. No matter what you say iz man you're not going to be able to get through to these guys. To each his own I guess.

We feel the same way dumbasses. Except you guys are so wrong its laughable.

And what does Titanic's quote have to do with anything? Did you go back and read the 2/3 pages? What he's saying is perfectly justifiable.

We have no problem at the war with Afganistan. Al Qaeda was not in Iraq when the war started and most of the attacks today in Iraq are not by Al Qaeda but by Shiite fighting Sunnis and Sunnis fighting Shiite. The war in Iraq was not justifiable b/c Bush attempted to make completely false accusations that Sadam and Al Qaeda were somehow linked. Sadam did a better job at keeping Al Qaeda out than we have unfortunately though. What we are doing in Iraq is now just pissing more and more people off, and therefore causing terrorism to grow. The "intended" plan in Iraq is completely backfiring.

The Taliban was not in Iraq and was/is in Afganistan, it controled the government. What we attacked in Afganistan was both the Taliban and Al Qaeda, which was perfectly fine. What we are doing in Iraq has nothing to do with the two. Even though we are "at war" with Al Qaeda, they are a very difficult thing to attack. Its a bit like trying to be at war with the KKK. Al Qaeda fights, but we cannot ever truly fight them.

[Whiteberry]

Whether it was wrong or right to go into Iraq is certainly debatable. Now the question is, what should the US do now? Do we stay there and finish the job or run away like cowards and hope they stop hating us?

[CCTV]

they cant just up and leave or all they went there for in the first place would be lost

[ritz627]

Well then the question is, what did they go there in the first place for?

False claims of a nonexistent connection between Al Qaeda and Sadam and unproven claims that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction?

People are dying everyday because we refuse to admitt we have been defeated, mostly by ourselves. Why should we allow more and more people to die for such a cause that is so difficult to find? If the goal now is to have a stable government in Iraq, then we must ask ourselves, is our presense really helping?

The longer we stay in Iraq, the more people hate us, and the more terrorism grows. Staying in Iraq wont stop people from hating us. However, leaving and admitting that we were wrong might help us to gain the respect back from our allies.

A slow withdrawl of troops would ensure this, and also enable us to keep a watchful eye on the Iraqi government. How much longer can we stay there? It would be a much needed diplomatic victory for the United States.

[Iz Man]

People are dying everyday because we refuse to admitt we have been defeated, mostly by ourselves.

Another defeatist. That'll earn respect.

The longer we stay in Iraq, the more people hate us, and the more terrorism grows. Staying in Iraq wont stop people from hating us. However, leaving and admitting that we were wrong might help us to gain the respect back from our allies.

God forbid not everyone likes us...... oh what WILL we do

A slow withdrawl of troops would ensure this, and also enable us to keep a watchful eye on the Iraqi government. How much longer can we stay there?

Ah, the slow bleed method. That's always effective (e.g. Vietnam)
We can stay until the job is done. That is, when Iraq's gov't can maintain its own peace and stability.
Have there been mistakes made? yup. The biggest problem is that a lot of the Iraqi people have been oppressed by a brutal dictator for so long, they don't know how to stand up for themselves. Hence the insurgency.
Some of you people have no concept of war and what it really is. This will take some time, longer than it should because of constraints being placed on the soldiers fighting (see my original post page 54).
If our forces can be let loose to do what they need to do to win, kill people & break things with extreme prejudice, we can resolve this situation quite quickly.
It's the politicians that are screwing everything up.

[Guiscard]

The biggest problem is that a lot of the Iraqi people have been oppressed by a brutal dictator for so long, they don't know how to stand up for themselves. Hence the insurgency.

Those two statements entirely contradict themselves. Insurgency, rightly or wrongly, is just that. They are standing up against what they see as foreign aggressors (not that I agree with the insurgency, before you pounce on that).

Some of you people have no concept of war and what it really is. This will take some time, longer than it should because of constraints being placed on the soldiers fighting (see my original post page 54).
If our forces can be let loose to do what they need to do to win, kill people & break things with extreme prejudice, we can resolve this situation quite quickly.
It's the politicians that are screwing everything up.

This is the most amount of fascist bullshit I've read so far. Let loose? Break things with extreme prejudice? Yeh that's what we need. More propaganda like Abu Ghraib for the insurgency to exploit in convincing more young men to blow themselves up and take half of Baghdad with them! I thought we were fighting terror, not propagating it!

The US army can't even target the enemy correctly. Poorly trained pilots managed to blow up British tanks with all the proper markings and codes, and then in the resulting investigation denied all evidence of any tapes or recordings, for those later to emerge with damning consequences. What makes you think loosening the leash on US forces won't lead to complete carnage? The insurgency would like nothing more than a hard-line approach. It gives them a clearer goal.

For the record, I don't believe in any kind of withdrawal of troops until the job we started under false pretences is done. In that respect I agree with you.

[ritz627]

People are dying everyday because we refuse to admitt we have been defeated, mostly by ourselves.

Another defeatist. That'll earn respect.

It sure as hell will earn more respect than we have now.

The longer we stay in Iraq, the more people hate us, and the more terrorism grows. Staying in Iraq wont stop people from hating us. However, leaving and admitting that we were wrong might help us to gain the respect back from our allies.

God forbid not everyone likes us...... oh what WILL we do

What is terrorism but a group of people who hate our ideals and attack us for them? But beyond this, America is a country which relies of exports from other countries for its economy to survive. We are not a self sufficient country. We cannot thrive if other countries are bitter towards us.

A slow withdrawl of troops would ensure this, and also enable us to keep a watchful eye on the Iraqi government. How much longer can we stay there?

Ah, the slow bleed method. That's always effective (e.g. Vietnam)
We can stay until the job is done. That is, when Iraq's gov't can maintain its own peace and stability.
Have there been mistakes made? yup. The biggest problem is that a lot of the Iraqi people have been oppressed by a brutal dictator for so long, they don't know how to stand up for themselves. Hence the insurgency.
Some of you people have no concept of war and what it really is. This will take some time, longer than it should because of constraints being placed on the soldiers fighting (see my original post page 54).
If our forces can be let loose to do what they need to do to win, kill people & break things with extreme prejudice, we can resolve this situation quite quickly.
It's the politicians that are screwing everything up.

Our presence is not helping Iraqi government stability! We have been there for over 4 years. The government is still hasn't improved since it was "restarted", and is still corrupt. The most we can do now is keep an eye on it, and to train a new policing force and army, and having a vast amount of troops will not help anymore than 5,000 will. The more troops we add, the more people are bitter towards us and, again, the more terrorism grows.

For the bold part, are you serious??? Yes, lets just randomly go around killing people. How is that not at all like Sadam?? How is that not at all like terrorrism?? What the hell is wrong with you? This needs to be a diplomatic war you dumbass. The problem with the insurgency is that you can't tell who is an insurgent and who is not. It is nearly impossible to actually know. And going around and commiting mass murder is not going to stop the chaos, and it certainly isn't going to decrease the amount of terrorists. It will in fact have the opposite affect as it will generate more hate towards America.

Guiscard took the rest of what I was going to say . *shakes fist* . (except for the last part).

So Guis, just curious, how to you propose we get this job done?